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Importance of audio source?
#254733 03/31/09 08:24 PM
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Hello all. Well, I am very new here, so please excuse this newbie question. My question is, how important is a good cd player, and what defines a good one?

The way I see it, a cd player simply decodes the digital data from a cd, and passes the digital data over coax or optical to the receiver or amplifier. Since digital is digital, I don't see what an defines a good cd player from a bad one.

On the other hand, I've tried playing cds through my dvd player, and passed the signal over digital coax to my current system, and it sounded terrible.

Second question: I listen to lots of cds, but mp3s also. Will mp3s encoded at 192 bps sound decent on a hi fi system, or will the high fidelity capabilities of the system illuminate the flaws of the mp3 source?

Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254741 03/31/09 08:48 PM
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Hello
In the early days of CD playback there was a difference in player to player performance, however, the difference was usually very subtle and at very low signal levels, a shortcoming called low level non- linearity. As players moved from multi bit ladder type D/A converters to one bit converters, this issue started to become a non issue even with low cost players.

You are correct with statement that one digital signal vs. another digital signal of the same source should be identical, which is the case unless there was a design flaw, or player malfunction, of one or both players being compared.

As far as using the digital output from the DVD player to play CD’s, it’s possible and more than likely that it’s not the receivers converter that’s degrading the sound, but some other function of either the DVD player or your receiver, or both.

Your final question is very hard to answer as it pertains to the way music should sound, which is always a subjective topic, but basically I suggest encoding mp3’s as high as possible as any good sound system will reveal flaws in mp3’s encoded at lower bit rates, particularly with symphony type music. There are many more variables to consider as well.

Good luck and welcome to the forume!
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Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254742 03/31/09 08:50 PM
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A good source is well, a good source, but you don't have to pay alot to get it. The Cd's through your DVD player could have been some bad cd's, then again the speakers or the other components in the system could have been messing with the signal.

I have a samsung DVD player that has the same DAC chips in it that are in the recent $100 or less dvd players out there now. I am sure they would sound as good as this 5 year old $400 one I bought. I had a Sony that didn't sound very good back then and it was new, as well. It would freeze up on layer changes on DVDs, so took it back, bought this Samsung and instantly heard much improved sound quality at much less volume on the receiver.

The higher the bit rate of the MP3s the better they will sound but I find anything over 128 to be very acceptable.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
jakewash #254743 03/31/09 08:59 PM
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Thanks for the quick replies guys!

So would I be accurate in summarizing that nearly any cd/dvd player with digital outputs should sound just as good as the next?

Perhaps the reason it didn't sound good was due to the speakers. I guess I'll admit here that it was a HTiB. I didn't expect hi fi sound for music, but it was downright terrible. Movie soundtracks on the other hand were quite a bit more impressive. Whatever the case, I sold it and need something good now.

Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254745 03/31/09 09:03 PM
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If you are running the cd, dvd player to the receiver via digital output and letting the receiver do the decoding then there should be no difference in the sound.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Wid #254747 03/31/09 09:04 PM
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Were you listening in some kind of surround mode?


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Ken.C #254749 03/31/09 09:09 PM
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No, stereo. It sounded ok I guess, just not satisfactory. And when connecting any kind of analog source to the HTiB, now THAT sounded terrible. But none of that matters, as the thing is sold.

Now I just have to decide what to do next...

Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254751 03/31/09 09:12 PM
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I have no idea what your budget is, but I'd suggest you take a look at the Oppo players as a choice for CD/DVD player (or the upcoming BD player). The reason I suggest them is IMHO they are some of the most versatile and all around good performing players for the money. At least when I bought mine 2 years ago, I could not find another player that had as much support for the various audio & video formats out there (Divx, mp3 etc...). Also layer change on DVD was so fast as to not be noticeable. My 2 cents anyway \:\)


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Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254759 03/31/09 10:01 PM
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Hi dm,

And welcome to the Axiom forum. All the answers by everyone are helpful, and generally speaking, the digital-to-analog converters used in current CD and DVD players as well as AV receivers are a mature technology and will essentially sound identical, no matter what the player's retail price.

To address your MP3 question, if we're speaking of high fidelity, then to avoid any audible anomalies with MP3, you have to use a data rate of 320 kb/second. I say this not as a matter of opinion, but as a proven scientific fact, as I was part of an international listening study of various codecs and data rates from around the world (Canada, the UK and Australia). The purpose was to select the most audibly transparent codec for distribution (terrestrial, satellite, and studio-to-studio) of music of broadcasting and recording sources.

Without going into tedious detail, the above data rate (320 kbs) was rated "essentially transparent". What does that mean? Using a variety of jazz, classical, rock and a cappella recordings, it was the data rate at which no audio anomalies could be consistently detected when compared with the full data rate source. I'd point out that generally, rock recordings were not as critical listening material, although one of the surprises was an a cappella solo female vocal that became slightly harsh and sibilant at rates slower than 320 kbs. Some other instruments also revealed problems with some of the codecs (castinets, for one).

In the example you cite, it may well have been a lousy recording. Keep in mind that recordings of all stripes, whether on vinyl, CD, DVD-A, SACD, DVD or analog tape, can vary dramatically in sound quality. There are thousands of terrible recordings on every medium, and lots of good ones. But certainly a good hi-fi system and great speakers will reveal the poor recordings and will enhance the great ones.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254787 04/01/09 01:47 AM
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 Originally Posted By: dmbartender

The way I see it, a cd player simply decodes the digital data from a cd, and passes the digital data over coax or optical to the receiver or amplifier. Since digital is digital, I don't see what an defines a good cd player from a bad one.

I recently compared a CD over a crappy Sony DVD to bluray of the same performance. It was all but impossible to tell the difference in blind switching between the two sources. I still have trouble believing it, but i listened for an hour and you just can't tell the difference. So no, you don't need any great CD player.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254791 04/01/09 02:05 AM
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Barkeep, when I saw the title of your thread, I thought that maybe CDs and DVDs were the subject, since they're actually the "source", rather than merely a component which plays them. As Alan in particular points out, present day players represent a mature technology and reproduce what's on the discs, good or bad, with audibly flawless fidelity.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Importance of audio source?
JohnK #254803 04/01/09 03:37 AM
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"As nitpicking inherently requires fastidious, meticulous attention to detail, the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail"

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking


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Re: Importance of audio source?
lhulls #254806 04/01/09 03:41 AM
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You can trust Zimm. He has cables woven by the Deaf Monk.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Ken.C #254809 04/01/09 03:54 AM
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Hey, Monk is not deaf, I watched that show the other night..


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Zimm #254828 04/01/09 05:55 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Zimm
 Originally Posted By: dmbartender

The way I see it, a cd player simply decodes the digital data from a cd, and passes the digital data over coax or optical to the receiver or amplifier. Since digital is digital, I don't see what an defines a good cd player from a bad one.

I recently compared a CD over a crappy Sony DVD to bluray of the same performance. It was all but impossible to tell the difference in blind switching between the two sources. I still have trouble believing it, but i listened for an hour and you just can't tell the difference. So no, you don't need any great CD player.


Man, you guys all rock for giving answers and sharing experiences so quickly. Kudos to this forum! Anyway, I guess in this case I'll stick with my normal dvd player, and see what results I get when I get some better speakers.

Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254836 04/01/09 06:33 AM
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Just out of curiosity what cd/dvd player do you have, for that matter, what are you planning on running the new speakers with?


Jason
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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #254857 04/01/09 12:11 PM
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 Quote:
I was part of an international listening study of various codecs and data rates from around the world


Alan, did you evaluate AAC as well? I would guess that AAC would sound "essentially transparent" at a lower bit rate than MP3, but am curious if that's what was found.

Do you have a link to more detailed results of that study?

Thanks.

Re: Importance of audio source?
wschwartz #254859 04/01/09 12:39 PM
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Hey Bartender, where are you located? Maybe there is someone on the auditions thread close to you that will let you listen to Axioms...


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Re: Importance of audio source?
SirQuack #254864 04/01/09 01:45 PM
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I live in bavaria for now. I did a search on the german version of google, and it seems axiom speakers aren't too widely distributed here.

But if there are any Germans on this board, do speak up!

Re: Importance of audio source?
wschwartz #254895 04/01/09 04:35 PM
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Hi wschwartz and all,

Your question prompted me to dig out my hard copy of the study, a good thing since I discovered I made some errors in my summary that I posted here (strictly from memory. . .).

I don't know if it's available online through a link. Here are details: The Canadian portion of the study in which I participated was done by the Communications Research Centre (CCR)in Ottawa, Ontario, in 1992. "Highly discriminating" listeners were brought in from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation), Audio Engineering Society, and specialty AV publications (at the time, I was editor of Sound&Vision Canada). Some editors of US-based magazines also came up to join the listening panel.

The other participants besides the CCR in Ottawa were the BBC research center in the U.K., the Communications Lab, Australia, and TDF, France.

I also got the data rates wrong. Some of the low-bit-rate codecs evaluated were at 240 kbits/second, and others at 360 kbits/second. They all have technical designations except for Dolby AC-2, so I don't know if AAC played a part. However, I seem to recall that one or more of the transparent codecs were developed at the Fraunhoffer Institute in Germany and perhaps AAC is derived from that codec. The best two of five were remarkably good at 240 kbits/second.

Other interesting facts from the report: the Suzanne Vega track was from A&M label, 395 136-2. We also used Dire Straits' "Ride Across the River" (I'd been using that track myself for some years in the NRC blind listening tests of loudspeakers). Additional tracks that were useful in distinguishing anomalies contained solo harpsichord, triangles, and castinets, the latter from a Telarc CD "Spanish Suite" by Ravel, Telarc CD-80171.

By the way, there was a 3-hour training period with up to 30 trials for all listeners before the formal tests began the following day. We had the choice of listening through Stax Lambda Pro headphones (electrostatic) or a a pair of tri-amped pro monitor speakers used with an active crossover and Bryston amplifiers. Generally, the headphone listening was more revealing of coding artifacts and distortions than loudspeaker listening.

In the blind listening, the impairment rating scale went from a top rating of 5.0 (Imperceptible) to 4.0 (Perceptible but not annoying) 3.0 (Slightly annoying) 2.0 (Annoying) and 1.0 (Very annoying).

The final report was called "CCIR Listening Tests: Basic Audio Quality of Distribution and Contribution Codecs". The authors were Ted Grusec and Louis Thibault. The report was submitted to the CCIR Task Group 10/2 (doc.24), Geneva, Switzerland, 10 November, 1992. The statistical analysis of the double-blind tests was very thorough.

The rating scale we used contains useful descriptors. Sometimes we did hear artifacts but they weren't annoying so we'd give that codec a 4.0 rating (perceptible but not annoying). The Suzanne Vega solo vocal was very revealing and I recall giving "Annoying" ratings to several of the codecs because of the edgy sibilance they imparted to her voice.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #254897 04/01/09 04:54 PM
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Very interesting.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #254906 04/01/09 05:42 PM
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Probably these days the digital audio from and CD / DVD player will sound the same player to player for the most part.

I happen to prefer the analog output of my old Yamaha CDC-815 5 disc changer. It has soft highs and a warm middle to the sound. There is a clear difference to the sound analog vs digital on this single player, as I can switch from analog to digital by just moving a switch in the back of the player.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Official Ninja #254910 04/01/09 06:09 PM
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Hi Official Ninja,

You raise an interesting point. Since eventually the digital output from a CD player must be converted to analog either in the CD player itself or, if you are routing the digital output via digital coaxial or optical connectors to an AV receiver, then the analog portions of the circuitry in either the CD player or the AV receiver may introduce differences like the ones you cite. Minor frequency response errors might occur, and those would likely be audible.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #255046 04/02/09 12:28 PM
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Hi Alan,

Thanks for reporting in more detail on those listening tests. According to Wikipedia, AAC wasn't released as a public standard until 1997, so I doubt it would have played a big role in a 1992 test. Its implementations have also been continually improved since 1997, so a test from that long ago might not show its current capabilities anyway.

Wikipedia says that 128 kbps AAC MPEG-2 is considered "transparent" for stereo; would be interesting to see if there's a believable basis for that, and also if the current MPEG-4 implementation has changed the situation. Maybe such updated codec listening tests would be a fun project for Axiom :-). You certainly have all the technology and expertise required, and it could lead to some good press since large numbers of people want to know how to encode their music as efficiently as possible without sacrificing fidelity.

For now, I think I'll stick to my Apple Lossless encoding--files are about half the size of uncompressed, though much larger than MP3 or AAC, but no worries about fidelity or the complications of determining just how to encode.

Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #255120 04/02/09 07:30 PM
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 Originally Posted By: alan
Fraunhoffer
Not to be JohnK here, but it's so rare I get to correct Alan. You have one too many Fs in there. Fraunhofer.

Pedantism, thy name is...

Bren R.

Re: Importance of audio source?
BrenR #255140 04/02/09 08:58 PM
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"Wikipedia says that"...come on. It also said the Elephant population of Africa had swollen to insane levels - at least for a little while.

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Re: Importance of audio source?
BrenR #255287 04/03/09 04:50 PM
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Hey Bren,

Just winging it. I should have looked it up. Thanks for the correction.

Alan


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Re: Importance of audio source?
wschwartz #255294 04/03/09 05:02 PM
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Hi,

I'm sure AAC and other codecs have been improved considerably, although I'm skeptical that 128 kb/s would be totally "transparent," even now. It might be for lots of uncritical material.

It really depends on how you define that. It should be noted that in the 1992 tests, even the best codecs had occasional little artifacts that some listeners heard now and then, but they weren't so bad as to be rated "annoying."

For instance, if you played some Spanish orchestral music with castinets, there might be a slight timbral change to the sound of the castinets, but not enough that it would annoy you. But do we still call that transparent? In fact, without an immediate A/B comparison to the original source, you might not even detect a tonal shift. Does it matter if everything else in the music selection sounds just fine, except for a slight tonal coloration on the castinets or the triangle (those two instruments, harpsichord and sometime vocals, were the most revealing of any audible flaws in a codec).

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #255312 04/03/09 05:56 PM
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128k is not transparent on AAC. I use 160 and above, now 256 VBR for my AACs.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Zimm #255319 04/03/09 06:38 PM
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(oops)

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