Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions From a 1909, how much better SQ to 2809. To 3808.

I did find that using 8 instead of 6 positions gave better results (for movies, I still only use it sporadically with music).

Just a few thoughts on the Denon line:

The pre-outs on the 3808/2809 (over the 1909) are really only important if you want to spend even more money on an outboard amp, thereby destroying any "bang for buck" ratios.

I bought the 3808 at the time when the 2809 was C$800, mostly because I wanted the 3808 rather than I thought it would sound better. I know there was a lot of talk on AVS about how the 3808 had individual DAC chips per channel instead of the 2809s multi-DAC single chip, but I doubt that would really make any audible difference. Computer chips are wonderful things these days.

The GUI is cool, but not really any easier to navigate than a basic OSD. Nice to have if you've got the cash, not really a value item.

The big difference between the 3808 and 2809 is upgradability. You can download new features on the 3808, as long as any new features are soft/firmware based and within the physical capabilities of the machine. If you figure there is more physical innovation coming down the pipe in the next couple of years, you'd be better off buying a lower cost Rx now (ie your 1909) and getting all the new stuff in a few years. The beauty of this is the "old" Rx gets demoted to another room and you have an excuse to buy more Axioms.

After all that said, however, I still don't regret buying the 3808.

2809 is upgradeable too.

Dave, to clarify or re-emphasize the point, I noted that you had rather casually talked about a "few dB" difference between each of those models. That's why I specifically pointed out that the difference was 1dB or less. It's fairly widely known that doubling power results in only a 3dB increase in sound level. The numbers for 1dB and 2dB are respectively, 1.26 and 1.59 times the power. So, to get just a 1dB sound level increase over 90 watts input requires 90x1.26=113.4 watts and for 2dB more 90x1.59=143.1 watts.

90 watts, and your 1909 would be slightly conservatively rated, as is common with HT receivers, would provide for a 104-105dB level at your 12' distance. Increasing that number by 1-2dB would hardly be a significant increase. Enjoy the great sound(when you play great material)through your 1909 and M80s.

Good to know. Makes the 2809 that much of a better AVR.
I was under the impression it wasn't. I remember reading a lot at the time (Christmas) and although it has an RS232 port it wasn't intended for user upgrades, or even firmware updates (although there was some talk about "un-official" bug fixes from the Denon guy over at AVS). There was also nothing in the manual about it, which, admittedly, is hardly proof of anything.

Doormat,
It is really helpful to get sincere feedback from 3808 (and 2809) owners. I had never really known if GUI was a true advantage or just a prettier OSD, so good to know it is not really a value add. I do like the idea of upgradability, but given I have to 'upgrade' to get that ability, that is moot at this point in time. Since three new Denon models will be announced in a little over a week at and below the retiring 3808's level, not a bad time to 'love the one your with' for a a little time longer.

Well, I already have the Sony STR-V333ES 5.1 I just upgraded from. I thought I'd set up 5.1 in the bedroom, but my wife prefers to keep it simple on that TV. :o( Well, maybe when she really becomes familiar with the Harmony 670 I got for that TV a month ago, she'll feel better about 5.1 in that room. :o) She actually would let me do it, but since I am spending a bundle in the living room, I'll wait a while. Having all the speakers and the AVR, I was ready to go, just because I could. She does not quite get that. ;o)

Researching the two, I also was told that the 2809's serial port wasnot upgradeable by users other than the 'unofficicial' fixes that the Denon guy put out when he had time. I do not think that compares to the 3808's ethernet firmware and feature upgradability. Adrian, do I understand incorrectly?

That's my take on the 2809, not really meant to be upgraded except if taken in for repair/upgrade much like the old 38XX and up series had to do.

I'll be in Brampton later on and I'll ask the owner of the audio store where I bought it from, about upgrading the 2809, I believe you have to bring it in to have any upgrade assuming there is one available(sometimes companies just issue an updated model and not bother). I checked Denon's website and they don't list the 2809 on their update list, so there isn't a "simple" update like some of the other Denons. When I bought my 2809 I got it in a packaged deal with the BD1800 and I remember the owner of the audio store telling me "there's an update coming up on your Denon"...I had assumed it was the AVR but he must have meant the Blu Ray player. I'll ask my local audio guy about it.

OK...I called one of our local Denon dealers, and he basically said this: that the 2809 is NOT upgradeable UNLESS you bring it in, and he believes(not 100%) that they upgrade it using the RS-232C jack on the lower left, back of unit, but said that one would need to contact Denon technical to confirm any of that.

John, I'm lost again. Alan's article says that to reach 106 without distortion with M80s you would need more than the 90 undistorted watts available. Moreover, while the amp will produce more than 90, it will start to distort the signal much lower (e.g, my 3300 list at 110wpc, but begins to distort at 74.) Assuming a similar situation here, won't he have significant distortion long before he gets to 104? A test of the 1909 says that at 50w into 4 ohms you have THD above .3%. 1909 Bench Test As the author notes, "THD+N vs. Frequency is shown below for 8 ohms and 4 ohms. The 20 volt at 4 ohms graph line suggests that this receiver may not do very well with 4 ohm speakers (because distortion stays relatively high all along the graph line)." By the time you reach 90, the amp has to be clipping hard, and you have not reached 105 for the damned peak yet.

I'm just missing something here, and I can't figure out what it is. Your rational for 90 being plenty makes sense, but Alan's article makes the need for 200 compelling, if we are talking about that volume range of 100-106db for un-clipped peaks. (not sustained - kids don't try that at home.) And the test bench implies you won't get 90 clean out of the amp with M80s. I need to take a night class on amps to i can get this stuff under control.