Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Speakers just arrived! Question.

Woo Hoo! My speakers just arrived! No time to look this up. Busy unboxing, wiring the A/B switch for M80s/M60s. We'll see how the Denon 1909 does with both the 60's and 80's. Let the games begin!

I'd guess spikes for wall to wall carpet (with pad). Buy in all my research, I never looked into (or retained ;o) what and why spikes are used vs. sitting on carpet vs. on rubber feet on carpet.

Photos will follow. Boy is Fed EX rough on the boxes! A couple of punch holes but no damage.

More later...

Congrats, Dave...a busy evening lies ahead!!

I guess I'll go with the spikes and hear the discussion later.

Off to hook up speakers fronts first.

The spikes allow the speaker to be 'anchored' to the floor for a more stable/solid footing and I would guess help to transfer the vibrations/case resonance to the ground.

I used the rubber feet, it just feels more stable to me this way.

Just the man to ask the next question. My speaker switch is not an A/B selector. I need to push A on, hopefully after turning B off and visa versa. With 4 ohm 80's and 8 ohm 60's, if I accidentally had them both on for a second (or more), I wonder if it would damage (fry) that section of the 1909? My buddy calculated the mix of the 6 & 8 ohm impedances would yield ≈ 3.4 ohms.

If that sounds about right, I wonder if a short time of a load like that (by accident) would fry those channels.

The Denon should just shut down if it finds the draw is to much.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

I think you are looking at 2.67 ohms with 4 ohms and 8 ohm speakers running in parallel.

Congrats Dave ... you know the drill regarding new digs, pictures and posting.

What'r you doing, keeping whichever set of speakers you fancy and sending the others back, regarding the 80s and 60s?

Wow! M60's and M80's in the house! Sweet!

Dave, your friend is correct at 3.4 ohms if the two parallel impedances are 6 and 8 ohms; David is correct at 2.67 ohms if the two are 4 and 8 ohms. The calculation is that the sum of the reciprocals of the individual impedances is equal to the reciprocal of the combined impedance; e.g., 1/4+1/8=1/X, 3/8=1/X, X=8/3, or 2.67 ohms. That's the math, but we really don't know what the actual real world result will be at any instant, since that depends on what the impedances of the two speakers would be at the frequency being played at that instant and we have no M60 impedance curve available, apparently.

Having said all that, don't worry about it. The 1909 doesn't know what the impedance of the speakers it's connected to is, just that it has to supply a certain voltage and current at each instant. If the short term current was extremely high because of an extremely low impedance(not the numbers we're talking about)the protective circuit would shut down immediately. If over a considerable time(which you wouldn't likely allow)the current caused overheating to build up, again the protective circuits would cause shut down without permanent damage.

Can you imagine if they did?
Me <-- turns receiver on, leans back to relax and listen to the music
receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..."

Don't forget to try an M60 as a center before you send one set back.

Dave, looks like everyone answered your question quite nicely

"It's gettin' hot in here.... I'll take off all your lows..."

1909: "All your base are belong to us."

Everything that guy said is Bull$^!+ ! Math? We don't need no stink'en Math.
The key is better speaker wire, that will fix all your concerns.

Yep, God made different types of copper, cheap stuff and expensive stuff.

Yo Dave, you posted impressions yet? I seem to have missed that thread...

Congrats Dave,
I'm looking forward to reading what your impressions are. Hey whatever you send back please route them through Yuma for just a few days first ;).

Dave has either hit "Sonic Nirvana" or he opened the M80 box from the wrong end, trapped underneath..."I've fallen, and I can't get up!"

Someone get to him before he gnaws his arm off!!

JP will now post "Nom nom nom nom".

pass the salt please!

OK all, I'm back, up for air. Funny it takes a lot longer to get things set up than I initially think... even with two of us. Remember, I'm slow, but I do poor work!
1) unboxing,
2) putting on spikes
3) removing spikes to install rubber feet (Jay I concur, spikes were less stable on my carpet)
4) wiring the speaker selector box
5) pulling gear to move to bottom shelf to make room for the VP150 on the top shelf (1" too wide to have components on each side <sigh> ;o)
6) pulling the in-wall side surrounds, making a temporary backing plate to mount QS8 brackets to.
7) run temporary back 7.1 wires across the floor to where the back QS8 (temporary) stands will be placed
8) manually set SPL on all speakers to 75dB with RS meter...
....FL 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....FR 80's +4.0, 60's +5.5
....CC VP150 0.0 (but I bumped to +2.0 while watching a movie)
....SL QS8 +4.5
....SR QS8 +4.5
....SBL V-52 +4.5 (old Bic V-52's still on back wall)
....SBR V-52 +4.0
....SW (3) -3.0 (Paradigm Servo-15a, (2) KLH 10" 120w)

Still to do:
a) Make temporary stands for back QS8's to move around backs to find best compromise of ceiling mount location
b) Mount QS8 back an connect wires
c) test back QS8 locations
d) remove one side surr. QS8 and re-install in-wall for comparison to QS8. (I was a bit surprised that I could hear the location of the QS8's on the sides. They may nor be AS localized as the direct firing in-walls, but I'll test to see... in a few days)
e) paint my 'DIY' QS8 ceiling brackets, them mount back QS8's (this week end?)

More listening to do over time for QS8 effect and locations (backs). I will report my initial impressions in my next post.(this one too long already...) This post is just to rationalize why my energy is low today. <must just sit down and watch movie. stop designing, figuring calculating, evaluating. shutting down processors for a few hours to actually relax and enjoy. OCD will be there when I finish relaxing...>

* As Mark suggested before via PM, I have not taken the time to run Audyssey on the Axioms/1909, I've just manually set channel levels to 75dB with RS meter. (Distances were still good) All speakers (still) set to small (3 subs ;o).

1) Rick WID, JohnK- Low ohm load concern: not an issue. I did just realize this morning that the protection circuit was engaged for our A/B listening tests on fronts last night. :o( off now) Though, before getting the hang of turning OFF 'A' before turning ON 'B', did not hurt.
2) RickF-Pictures... careful what you ask for <too late>! I will have plenty of photos of all stages including building the back QS8 DIY brackets.
3) FredK, "receiver <-- " Hey putz, turn me down!! Thats a 4Ohm load. I'm getting hot here..." (glad I'm not the only one that inanimate objects talk to!
4) FredK, "Don't forget to try an M60 as a center" I'm scared to! ;o) ...but I will. The VP150 has a much different sound (in my application. On shelf below 73" DLP, not enclosed, but there is are two wood panels directly behind it. Photo later.) I can see why (grunt?) kept lobbying for an M22 as a center IPO the VP150. I bumped the CC level up from 0.0 to +2.0dB for better dialog loudness. Hmmn. All spkrs are crossed at 80Hz, except the CC. I did not change from pre Axiom settings. Maybe changing CC to 80Hz as well might help?? I will do this before my (upcoming) relax period.
5) Charles: "Everything that guy said is Bull$^!+ ! Math? We don't need no stink'en Math. The key is better speaker wire, that will fix all your concerns. ;\)" Oh, I'm covered on wire. I have run 0000 AWG (.46") oxygen free wire through metal conduit, from the AVR to all speakers. The wife thinks the 1 1/2" conduit running through the living room is a problem. She had NO IDEA her glee from seeing the Klipsch Cornwalls leave the living room, might have a down side!

(Oh yeh, that was a short post, Dave ;o)

But at least you're expensive, too.

I'm really looking forward to your listening review. It's not that I don't enjoy and appreciate the setup/engineering stuff, but it would be nice to see you relax

Keep in mind that the differences you perceive in the timbre of the VP150 are not necessarily a product of the speaker, but more likely from placement/positioning. The way I understand your setup, you probably don't have a lot of flexibility there, but it's worth trying a few things before providing grist to the insatiable "VP150 Weak Link" club.

I don't know why you WOULDN'T cross the VP150 at 80Hz.

Have fun. Post pictures.

OK, I made you suffer through all that BS before getting to my initial impressions!

Like I said above, by mistake, the protection circuit, was 'ON', on the speaker switching box. (It is now off) When I turned it Off, the SPL went up 2.5dB. Meaning. with prot. cir. ON, while testing last night, the channel level to achieve 75dB was set to +6.5dB, with prot. cir. Off, ch level can be set to +4.0.

****** So the caveat on these initial impressions are with the PROTECTION CIRCUIT ON (from last night).****** AND, these are mine and my friends feelings of the sound in my room. We are not audiophiles and have a very limited audio vocabulary.

- Testing was done in Direct mode (just L& R fronts). No sub unless noted.
- when sub was included, I used 'CD Virtual' mode (the only mode I found on the 1909 the included just front L&R + sub)
- Speaker placement: 60's and 80's were next to each other side by side 1" apart at front. This 1" gap was 4' from Sound Stage Center (SSC). So the (centers of) outer set was spaced about 8' 9" apart. while inner pair was spaced at about 7'3" apart. Round one had 60's outside. Round two, their positions switched.
* Spkrs were toed in pointing at SSC 12' back (primary seat)
* Spkrs were ≈ 15-20" from front wall. The fronts of the outer speakers were 4" further from back wall to keep their grill surfaces even or in line.
* Distance from side walls of the '1" center gap' (between spkrs) was 7' on both sides. [note: LF spkr(s) has a wall to ceiling shelf 2.5' to their left. 'Outer' spkr is 5" forward of bookkshelf, 'inner' is 2" forward of BS (again, grills face equally towards SSC as if they combined as one spkr grill).
- Switching from 'A' to 'B'. One person sat SSC 12' back from SSC. The other operated the switch from just in front of TV, but near it to impact sound as little as possible.

The M60's sounded very good. The sound stage was focused in the center of the Sound Stage (SS). The mids and highs were more pronounced. The vocals were more pronounced. On good recordings (DS,Brothers in Arms, EC Unplugged), this was perceived as a plus. Vocals were clear and easily understood.(all comments contrast to the 'other M' being tested) Switching to 80's on same passages, vocals seemed more muted. We preferred the 60's here for vocals.

We guessed that the 'perceived' more forward, bright highs and mids, may have just been that the 60's did not have as powerful and deep of base reproduction, thus 'appearing' stronger on mids and highs. [note, my buddy, Steve, preferred the 60's with the sub engaged, when we did this later. (to engage sub, I used 'CD Virtual' mode, since it was the only mode I found on the 1909 that played the front L&R + sub)]

The M80's:
Over all we both clearly preferred the M80's. (large room 31'l x 23'w, over 6,500 cu ft.) Compared to the 60's Sound Stage being focused in the center, the 80's SS immediately upon switching, filled the entire SS from left to right. The sound was significantly fuller in this big space. As mentioned above, vocals seemed less pronounced than with the 60's, but the rest of the sound seemed far fuller and richer than the 60's. I will keep both pairs hooked up for further testing. Remember, by mistake, all the above was listened to last night with the speaker switch box's protection circuit 'ON'! (changing to 'OFF' this morning [as it will stay now], the SPL level went up 2.5dB.)

Misc. sound quality comments:
Boy do I get what people always say about poorly recorded CD' sounding bad! We did most of our critical listening with DS Brothers in Arms (dig. remastered), EC Unplugged and a few minutes of Dave M. & Tim R. Live at RC (it was late and we were hitting the wall). All was sounding nice with our various opinions on M80 vs. M60. When we got to a CD I had just bought, Best of Scorpions, Holy Crap! That M60 preferred for vocal clarity had the lead singer's voice shrill and piercing. I had to turn it off, fast. Then on to Black Sabbath/ Paranoid. Ooooh, that is a poor recording, Steve says. Maybe later on I'll experiment with different sound fields for those poor recordings.
Anyone have any suggestions on a sound field or other way they find helps with the poorer CD's short comings, especially rock?

Center VP150:
I was a little disappointed in not being able understand the dialog well enough with CC channel levels set match all others at 75dB on RS SPL meter. After a while, Steve said why not just bump the CC level up a bit. DUH! I changed the CC channel level from it's SPL meter setting of 0.00 to +2.0. That was better. I now wish I HAD ordered one M22 to try as a center! Julie and I nixed the idea, because there is not enough clearance in shelf under the TV, EVEN IF I removed the glass shelf. (OEM Mitsub. stand which looks the same as RickF has) Julie and I felt would not like a speaker sitting in front of the TV/stand combo. Now I'm thinking If it sounded night and day better, we may want to reconsider.

RickF, I believe you have the exact same stand and you do have a VP150 below your TV (Mits. 73"?). Does the following feel true for you in your set up?
--- When running the Denon test tones, the VP150 has a much different sound than both the 60's and 80's. I don't know if this contributes to my perception of the CC not being loud enough. [note; both Steve and I have some hearing loss. I have a hard time hearing conversation if spoken low. I actually can not hear crickets or the alarm on my digital watch on my wrist. (high frequencies I guess). The hearing loss may contribute. I will test with 'known good ears', Julie's, and report back later.
RickF, do you leave your CC channel level where Audyssey sets it? OH,maybe this CC issue will go away or subside after running Audyssey. Hmmmmn... maybe I will try running Audyssey before Julie gets home (if dog is quiet enough... in garage?? :o) VP150 is angled directly at the list. pos. ear ht.

QS8's as side surrounds: I was a bit surprised that the Q's did seem a bit localized. This may be from to high an expectation of not being able to hear that the sound was coming directly from the side. I'll have to pay attention if I hear the sound from up high (7'), where they are. (top of QS8 is 11" from ceiling) I have stared at them and it seems the sound is coming from them. As I relax and use the system going forward, I'll see if my perception changes. I just had read it was a night and day difference. When I feel like bothering, in several days maybe, I'll swap out one side Q and put back the in-wall (8" Kevlar woofer, 1" alum. tweeter) to see how the SL & SR compare. That should be a good test.

I don't know if today, I will get to building temporary stands (8' tall) to mount the back 7.1 QS8's.

Looks:
Both my wife and neighbor (lady), independently gushed over how good the speakers looked. I was pleasantly surprised. :o) To be honest, I was second guessing my Mansfield Beech choice and wondering if black might have been better. I am sure that because every one else loves them, I will too, after getting over my 'gotta make perfect choice' issues.
Side note: boy did the boxes look super dirty and beaten up. I thought Fed Ex is awfully rough on packages! Then I guessed this was likely a second (or more?) trip for the packaging. I did order FO, so no problems from me if packaging is reused (I would if it was my business to keep costs down.)

Condition: Is very good. In looking VERY closely I could see at a few of the vinyl edges there were some imperfections. These are not noticeable from 1 foot away. I am very pleased with their fit and finish. One of the M80 grills has a strange 1" wide curving line running down the center of the black speaker cloth. Imagine a (humongous) snail trail down the center of the grill. Weird, but I know Brent will send along another M80 grill when I get around to contacting him, so no worries there.

EDIT: Relaxing now... here mr beer

One thing to consider, by having the speakers right next to each other this will affect their sound, mostly in the low frequencies. For example, bass can be changed or reinforced by what is around the speaker, like walls or other speakers.

I guess what I'm saying is that the speakers won't sound the same as soon as you move the other speaker out of the way, or change the position of the speaker in relation to the walls around it, this may account for why the the bass sounds different between the two.

Also, I have never heard of Virtual mode, I use "Stereo" or "Direct" modes when listening to music.

Dave, I've quickly gone over your new posts and just a couple quick comments. Yes, Dean(crunch)has indicated his preference for a vertical center speaker and during the seven years I've been here I've pointed out their advantages numerous times.

Your difficulty with finding a mode for using the sub with the mains in 2-channel play shouldn't be, since the regular stereo mode(not direct)sends signals to the sub below the crossover set when the mains are set "small".

As far as making poorly recorded material sound less offensive, I found in the past that reducing the upper midrange/lower treble area around 3-6KHz(on a receiver with variable crossovers)helped somewhat. On your 1909, using the manual equalizer to drop that area a bit might help on some recordings. Since bad recordings sound worse the louder the playing level, the best cure may be to listen to them with the sound level set to about 30dB(assuming that your listening room noise floor is higher than that).

Man, that would have been SO MUCH easier to understand with pictures.



Thanks, Dave. Nice job. +1 on Randy's comments about boundary effects, and about just finding the "Stereo" mode.

Cheers!

We did swap their orientation, but they were always 1" apart. Good point Randy. Soon I will move completely away, the speaker not in use, for a better representation of how each will sound on their own. I will do this after mounting the back QS8's on their temp. stands AND running Audyssey. Though for stereo testing Audyssey is not in play (correct?).

After our 2 ch Direct testing, we wanted to hear them with the sub included (no surrounds) for music. Turning the mode selection knob, I came across "CD Virtual". This is the only mode (1909) that showed the two fronts + sub in the right side of the display as being output (left showed 2 ch input). My neighbor, Tim, a drummer, thought the base was no where near the level he likes, or that you'd here at a live performance. It was certainly not nearly as pronounced as the LFE with movies. I just assumed it produced what it was fed. I maxed the Sub level from -3.0 to +12.0. Then even changed the crossovers from 80Hz to 100Hz, thinking the subs would handle more and produce more. He still thought base was lacking. We then tried Rock and Jazz modes. He preferred Jazz to Rock modes. We had been listening at about 82-85dB continuous (-20 vol. level). After he left, I reset to 80Hz xover, -3.0 sub level. When I cranked it louder to about 95dB (≈ -13 vol.), the bass drums were more pronounced. It sounded good to me. I'll get him back to hear at 95dB. (Audyssey was OFF for all 2 and 2.1 stereo listening)

If you go into the menu for "Direct mode" (on the 3808 it is under Manual Setup > Audio Setup > 2 Channel Direct/Stereo) there should be an option to include a sub.

I'll try an M60 as center as Fred suggested. I'm not sure what I can extrapolate to what an M22 as center might sound like.


Thanks, I missed that! Stereo it is now to include sub. Any idea how 'Virtual' might differ from 'Stereo'?


I am not familiar with how to drop the 'mid lower treble area'. I am only familiar with adjusting the x-over for each pair (and CC/subs) of speakers. How would I do this?

-30 volume level produces ≈ 79dB (continuous) at the 12' listening position. That is ok, not rock out level, but if that is all one can 'stand' for poorer CD recording's, that will need to do.

At some point, you have to compare the M80 to M60 without subs, at FULL RANGE. All this 80hz cut-off business is nice, but fact is, if you want to compare two speakers you have to let them do it on their own. I expect you are actually handicapping the M80 as it should go lower, but I'm curious.

Going there in the menu shows:
Setting: Basic
SW: Yes
Subwoofer mode: LFE
x-over: 80Hz
Distances: 12.8', 12.9'

So I am good there. Like JohnK mentioned, I was mistaken and had overlooked that 'Stereo' mode includes the sub and is the mode to use if I want 2 ch + sub.

Tom,
Whine! Whine! Whine! OK, I'll go take some pictures now to shut you up!

Agreed, Charles. Dave, if you're going to compare the two towers, you should definitely try them at full range w/o the sub initially, imo(after, test them with the sub). According to Axiom's specs, the 80s should go a little lower.

I felt they did go lower with my own experience but I also found vocals and the upper end to be more pronounced on the M80s vs. 60's.

Adrian, buried in the looooooong posts above, that is exactly what we did. Yes, the 80's did go lower of course, and had a much wider deeper sound field. More testing when time allows.

We actually found mids/highs to be more pronounced with 60's, BUT, I need to redo all testing because the circuit protection was inadvertently left 'ON' by mistake. When protection was turned 'OFF', the dB level went up 2.5dB.
So above testing will be redone with protection OFF.

pictures taken... loading now....

Charles,
Crap, I was assuming I was listening to 60/80's full range by listening in direct mode. Waaaah. I just went into menu for direct mode, changed from basic (which had sub on w/80Hz x-over...crap.) to Custom. In Custom I turned sub off. D'OH!

Thanks Charles for that catch. They are so many setting I have never adjusted before and don't know what affect what (but learning as I go with y'all's help. ;o).

Hmmmn.... Funny before posting this I was going to listen a bit at the new settings (Direct Mode SW off). I just realized the 1909's display on the right showed 2 ch (no sub), when I had been listening in 'Direct' mode before the (just now change)! Still shows same 2 ch output of course. I wonder if, even though the sub was not playing, if 'Direct' (Basic) actually did cut fronts off below 80Hz, or if all settings were somehow ignored? ?

I just listened to more ZZ Top in Texas (BD), which has plenty of base. I Direct Mode menu settings, I switched between 'Custom' (sub off) and 'Basic' (sub, yes, LFE, 80Hz). I went back and forth several times. I could hear no difference in the base between the two settings. I'd have to say, for some reason, the Direct Mode menu settings are ignored for some reason. Anyone familiar with these settings?

Have you tried LFE + Mains?

Here is the PhotoBucket link to all the pics I took since the Axioms arrived, if you care to see more.
Dave's Axiom Pics, ver. 1.0


They ARRIVE !

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Gotta Love ZZ Top Live in Texas! This was a definite must buy for me.

M80's and M60's:

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VP150 center channel location:
I described earlier that test tones from the VP150 sounded much different then both the 80's and 60's. Also, for my ears, I needed to raise ch level from 0.0 to +2.0dB to hear movie dialogue well enough. I am curious if anyone knows if this location below TV could add to the 'too low for me' SPL CC? I doubt it because is pretty open and the VP is not ported anyway. (0.0 CC ch level was from manually setting SPL at list pos. to 75dB. CC angle has been adjusted to anlgle directly at ears at primary list. pos.)

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QS8 Side Surrounds:
These are temporarily mounted to plates inserted into old in-wall speaker frames.

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Subs: (1) Paradigm Servo-15a (2) KLH 10"
[had the KLH's before I knew what a real sub was.
The two subs shown are directly left and right of listening area, which gave the best bass.

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Billy and Dusty... tooooo coooool! Gotta love them Cheap Sunglasses! ! !
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After I get time to build the temporary stands for the 7.1 backs, I will then post a few more pics. I won't bother to runn Audyssey probably until the 8's in back are in place.
(sorry for the band width suck)

It's pretty typical for different speakers to sound very different with pink noise. I wouldn't necessarily take that as an indicator.

What Ken said.

Lookit all those boxes! Dang!

NICE PICTURES! Thank You! You did not seriously think that was going to "shut me up" did you?

What the hell is that thing sitting next to the Paradigm sub with the leaf on its head?!?!

You guys can't seriously tell me that the M60's don't look better than the M80's with the grills on. No contest

I'm pretty unconvinced that the placement of the KLH sub is optimal.

Beautiful room, Dave!

The M60s might look better, but the M80s look bigger. Neener.

Ten points to the person who can - without the assistance of the interwebs - name the TV series on which Billy Gibbons made two cameo appearances.

X-Files?

And those were the best looking sides! I bet them boxes could tell the travel channel a thing or two.;)


Well, maybe just slow you down a bit. At least until your first beer (Oly ) anyway! Did you go into mourning when your local brewery closed down in Tumwater in '03?


That's our 10lb Toy Fox Terrier/ Affenpinscher/ + God knows what. Careful Tom, he'll rip your pinky off if you 'dis him!


I actually like the look of the shorter 60 in how it is about half the height of the TV. So while the 60's "have a very nice personality, I would prefer to just be friends!"


Come on over. I'll show you. What's a 12 1/2 hour drive to a guy like you?


Thanks

Dave, given that first picture, I think you need to keep all of them.

Looking good Dave!

Looking forward to the comparison with speaker in true full range mode.
I know others said it already, but you need to go into the receiver settings and set subwoofer or LFE to "none" or whatever the equivalent is on the 1909. If you LFE configured and you just trun the sub off, you're missing out on the lower frequencies.

Nice set of speakers

Looking good Dave!


Say, there are 60s in that picture. I missed that while admiring those beautifull M80s.

Dave, my attempt at humor/sarcasm was missed: I didn't say -30 on the volume control, I said 30dB. Since the noise floor in even a quiet room at home is over 30dB, the sound would be inaudible and your problem would be solved.

A less drastic suggestion that I mentioned is seeing if applying a little upper midrange/lower treble equalization to just the offensive discs would help. Your 1909 has a manual equalizer which can be used as an alternative to(not a modification of) the Audyssey equalization. One of the available frequencies is 4KHz, so you might try 4-5dB of cut there and select the manual equalizer for those discs.

I can add one thing regarding the m60's and m80's. In my past auditions, many have commented that I had my subs still on, when in fact the 60's and 80's were set to Large, and sub set to none.

Bones.

Dammit Jon, I'm a doctor, not a trivia expert!

The clearly DRUNK squirrel (or feral chipmunk) wins the award for most aggressive hijacking of the year. Wow, I have whiplash from that topic change.

Ten points for JonHan!

Where's my trophy for the threadjacking?

The squirrel appears to be drinking it now.

That looks like a pint of Guinness

1) Today's pictures first, 'cuz, gosh darn it, people like 'em.
All Pictures
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M60s moved away so M80's sound is not affected by their proximity. M80s are spaced 8 1/2' apart.

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QS8 7.1 backs, view from front on temporary stands. In this first test location, Q's are:
- 12' apart
- 5' behind primary listening position (Randy, Rick and others with back wall far behind 7.1 ceiling mounted Q's... What distance behind the primary listening position and how far apart are your back Q's mounted? )
- 10" from ceiling
- not tilted

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QS8 stands, side view. Hey, maybe I won't ceiling mount the back Q's. Maybe I should just slap a maple stain on the stands and call them a 'feature'. I think Julie would approve. Ha, Ha!

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2) Late last night after getting the stands completed, mounting/wiring the Q's and placing them in their first test position, I ran Audyssey on the new Axioms for the first time.

I was blown away! The surround sound for ZZ Top and The Dark Knight BD's was amazing after Audyssey and now with Q's 5' behind list. pos. instead of small bookshelfs 16' away on back wall! ! ! To repeat what I had said before, IMO, in a very large space (31'x23'x 9' in my case), the M80s do a noticeably better job than the M60s. The sound stage is much fuller, richer and deeper with the M80's.

3) Interesting outcome on crossovers that Audyssey set:
- FL +7.0, large/40Hz (I changed to small/80hZ)
- FR +7.0, large/40Hz (I changed to small/80hZ)
- CC +3.5, 80Hz (good)
- SW +1.0 (cool!) LFE/80Hz (from my manual settings)
- SL +6.5, 90Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
- SR +6.5, 90Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
-SBL +6.0, 150Hz (I changed to 80hZ)
-SBR +5.0, 150Hz (I changed to 80hZ)

4) The SPL of the Audyssey 'boinks' (test tones) for all speakers was between 62-65dB on the RS SPL meter at the 12' primary list. pos. Does Audyssey increases ch. levels to get SPL to 75dB? Is that why most ch. levels are set +6 to +7?
Also, I was puzzled that the ch. levels set for the far more efficient (95dB) Axioms was .5 to 1.0 higher than the 90dB sensitivity Bic V-52's (these were at FL,CC,FR,SBL,SBR)!

[WARNING: If you dislike over analyzing information... "Move Along! Nothing to see here."]
But if you major in 'too much (analysis) is never enough!' read on. Charles, come on in. The water is warm, just how you like it.


Back 7.1 QS8'S
The next things for me to decide on is if I should tilt my back QS8's slightly. Also, any recommendation on either moving Q's any further than 5' behind the primary list. pos. -OR- altering the 12' apart spacing? (fronts are 8 1/2' apart, SL & SR are 23' apart) At 12' apart the backs are ≈ in line with the outside ends of the couch seating positions.

Alan, I know the QS8's are VERY forgiving in their location, but would you have a recommendation on distance behind list. pos. and spacing apart, in my large room?

On, 'to tilt or not to tilt'... My non scientific WAG might think that tilting Q's down a few degrees might:
- let tweeters reflect off side walls down to the ear level as opposed to reflecting around mostly in the upper part of the room. (no idea if much of the highs would actually stay up there!)
- top driver. Rather than reflecting straight off the ceiling, would a slight tilt forward cause more of that drivers reflected sound from ceiling to go more directly to the listening pos.?
- bottom driver. It would be directed slightly back away from the list. area, so I'd guess most of it's sound would be dissipated. But not much, if at all more than it firing directly down to the (hardwood) floor??

I am thinking the best chance I have at trying to hear any subtle differences between 1' foot or so moves of the back Q's would be to pull the banana plugs for all speakers from the1909, except SBL & SBR, them play a good surround BD like Wall-E that engages the surrounds a lot. Any other ideas on how to demo different back Q locations gladly accepted.

OCD in full gear!

Yes, I will be sending back the one's that I do not feel work as well in my room. (the M60's)

Dave, I have nothing helpful to offer, but wanted to thank and congratulate you for doing a great job with analysis and documentation. I think your journey will really help other people.

Even if you chose the wrong mains.

I had a similar occurrence with Audyssey and the QS8's (a pretty high xover point). Weird.

Will you be using the Ceiling FMB for the QS8's? My inclination would be to use that method AND to angle them a bit.

Have a fun weekend!

Dave, I don't believe it is Audyssey that sets the crossovers, it is the receiver. They now use a standard 40hz as the determination point I believe, which is why the 80's came out large. Audyssey recommends changing them to small, but not neccesarily all to 80hz.

...and with an M60 center?

To add to this, Audyssey measures the response of the speakers in your room. If you change them from 150 hz down to 80 hz, you could potentially be missing parts of the range in between. It is safe to adjust up, but not down.

True Dave, I forgot about Chris mentioning that on AVS.

Hey, just checked your website, looks like the pictures are not loading? Also, I just started a thread in the technical area about considering a new Onkyo, if you have any feedback that would be great..

LOL!


So did you change them to 80 Hz? I vaguely remember reading it's OK to manually 'raise' x-overs, but that if you 'lower' them, Audessy does not control that range (like 80Hz - 150Hz on my back QS8's. Anyone confirm or contradict this?


No FMB's for my ceiling mount application. I want more space than the ceiling clearance FMB's allow (2" not tilted, 3-4" tilted). I am creating my own DIY brackets. I'll post photos when I get into making them. Are your backs tilted? Are your HT pics up on Axiom?

You have a good week end as well.

Cheers

D'OH ! ! ! I should have read down two posts before replying and asking this question. Thanks for confirming my poor memory.

So why in the heck did my old 5 1/4" driver Bic America V52's as backs way on the back wall always get set to 80Hz by Audyssey (and, Randy, when I run Audyssey the crossover points for each pair of speakers & center are set. Maybe it is the 1909, but to me, it happens when I run Audyssey ;o) and the QS8's get set to 150Hz?? Audyssey must not be hearing the up and down firing drivers of the Q's is the only explanation I can guess. HEY, maybe this is the way I can determine the best angle for my back QS8's! play with angle until the (top only) driver(s) raises the Audyssey set crossover point! I'll try this. Now I just need to devise a way to add an adjustable tilt on my temporary stands.

What are people doing about Audyssey set high x-overs?
What x-overs are your side and back QS8's set to by Audyssey?

In reading the Audyssey thread on AVS, I'm pretty sure Chris from Audyssey says the speaker "small" or "large" setting and crossover settings are determined by the receiver, not Audyssey.

I've also read that when your speakers are very high, like you have them, it might cause strange settings. Have you followed the setup guide posted over at AVS's thread?

It does appear Audyssey sets the appropriate crossover frequency, but does not determine the "size" of the speaker. My guess is your results may have to do with placement of the speakers within your room, acoustic properties of your room, or where you had the mic in relation to the speakers. Your rear Qs8's are just floating in space with no wall behind them, that may have something to do with it, not sure.

From the Audyssey Website:

Why does Audyssey set my speakers to Large (or Small) when I know they are not?

MultEQ does not set the speakers to Large or Small. This is a decision made by each individual AVR manufacturer and each uses a different speaker roll-off frequency to make this decision. Audyssey recommends the decision should be made using 40 Hz as the roll- off frequency. That is to say, if a speaker is found to roll-off below 40 Hz it should be called Large and all other speakers should be called Small.

If your AVR manufacturer sets your speakers to Large then all content below the crossover frequency is lost as it is not redirected to the subwoofer. Audyssey recommends changing the speaker setting to Small manually after the calibration is finished.

During automatic set-up MultEQ first finds how many loudspeakers are connected in the system, then determines the loudspeaker type (satellite or subwoofer), checks the absolute polarity of each channel, and identifies the optimum crossover frequency for each loudspeaker and the subwoofer(s). After that it calculates the distance between each loudspeaker and the first microphone position in order to automatically sets the appropriate delays. Finally, it identifies any level differences among the loudspeakers and automatically sets the trims.

The difference between the frequency which is sent to the sub because of the crossover setting and the frequency which is subject to the Audyssey equalization should be kept in mind. For example, if a "small" speaker has its crossover which was set at 120Hz during auto-calibration manually changed to 80Hz, the frequencies from 80Hz to 120Hz aren't lost, but stay with the speaker rather than being sent to the sub. The separate factor of the Audyssey equalization couldn't operate below 120Hz for that speaker because Audyssey only equalized it down to 120Hz(and manually changing it to 80Hz doesn't add equalization down to that frequency). This lack of equalization for those frequencies may or may not have any audible effect.

Audyssey recommends 40hz as the determination if a speaker should be small or large, this is the criteria then used by the receiver manufacturers (Denon, NAD, Onkyo, etc.) which then set the speakers size setting during the setup. This is followed by Audyssey setting the appropriate crossover for each speaker. Marantz is the only company that still has not come onboard like the other Audyssey enabled products, and they still use 80hz for the small/large determination. In these cases you will have to manually change the speakers setting to small.

Dave, below is a response Chris from Audyssey gave another person about lowering the crossover point Audyssey finds.

"If you lower the crossover then you won't be getting any MultEQ correction below the rolloff point that was found. MultEQ stops correcting below that point to avoid overboosting below the –3 dB point of the speaker (as it measures in your room)."

Because the speakers were "on the back wall", which boosted the lows. My QS8's are set for 90 hz on the sides and 120 hz in the back. It is all about rooms and placement....

I did see your thread earlier, but I can't really add anything constructive since I have M60's. Yes, my website could stand some TLC.

All this techno talk regarding Audyssey and the initial setup confuses a simple man like me. In an earlier post didn't you show a picture of the Denon manual Dave? My gosh, I was initially looking to buy the 2309 but picture scared me. Together with the reports of a poor performing remote and other complexities I would now rather another recommendation for a simpler surround receiver for what I think I may purchase...the M60's. My room is much smaller than Dave's about 2100 Cu ft. (it's a bedroom). Does anyone think the M80's to have a significant advantage over and against the M60's in my medium sized room? It may be hard enough to squeeze in the 60's. The 80's would certainly require some furniture removal, but it could be done and will be if indeed the 80's are judged by me to be superior. I am not one who wants to test things out and return items. I hope to make a decision based on these posts. I have a sub and will use the set up mostly for music. So I guess I am asking two questions....a simpler surround receiver (for M60's) other than a Denon and which speaker's sound would be maximized most cost efficiently with a sub for classical and oldies from past 30 years. If this request seems redundant...well it is (this is rough decision for me to make). Thanks...Lee

The M80s are only a couple inches deeper and taller than the M60's, if you have room for the 60, I would bet the 80s would fit just as easily.

Going with the M80 in any size room you still have the benefit of the better low end and detail they offer, IMO.

I would agree with Jay, though you really can't go wrong with either speaker.

Also, I believe it is safe to say that all modern receivers will be are "complicated". It is not just Denon.