Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Sub recommendation please

An Axiom newbie here requesting some help in deciding which subwoofer would best fit my setup.

I will be receiving M3's in triplicate (hopefully tomorrow) to serve as my front soundstage. This is my first set of 'nice' speakers. My dad has a sweet setup with B&W speakers and I'm hoping that the M3's can get me close to or on par SQ wise. Old Panasonic speakers from an unused HTIB are filling in as my surrounds (5.1) until I can afford something better.

My receiver is a Denon AVR-590. My 'home theater' sits along a wall in a room that is roughly 18x23 and has one side completely open to the rest of the house.

The room is fully carpeted and has shelves lined with children's toys, books and assorted plastic bins.

The viewing/listening position is only 8ft from the screen and front speakers.

The system will be used equally for music and movies/tv. I listen to a wide range of genres from Jazz to Metal to R&B and Hawaiian. With young children in the house, the volume will rarely be turned up to reference levels.

Generally, I value musical accuracy and good low end extension over impact, but do appreciate a hard hitting sub during movies.

I will need to save up for this purchase so price is not a major consideration at this time, but getting the best bang for my buck is a high priority.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Aloha,

Brian

Brian, welcome, but c'mon, give us another clue so that we can figure out where you're from!

As to the sub, I can strongly recommend the EP500 which I use if your budget would extend that high. However, although you say that price isn't a "major consideration", the fact that you've bought the modestly-priced, but excellent, M3s, indicates that something more in line with that price class might be more comfortable. The EP350 would be a good choice, or going outside of Axiom for a still lower cost, you might consider the fine Hsu STF-2.

Enjoy the fine sound through your M3s.

JohnK,

Thank you very much for your reply!

I went with the M3's mostly due to space considerations (no room for floor standers) and that I wanted the same model of speaker making up my LCR channels. The M22's would have worked, but from what I've read, the M3's will provide me more of the mid-bass boost that I'm looking for until I can get the sub. The other consideration was that the center channel speaker may have to be placed on its side if it doesn't pass the WA test. I was led to believe that the M3 was forgiving in that respect.

Don't get me wrong though, the modest price of the M3's is great!! It always makes me smile when I can get the most out of my hard earned dollar! Hopefully they will sound as good as everyone says.

I'll take a look at the Hsu as well.

Aloha!

Brian

That's pretty rich coming from you, John...

Brian--intrusive privacy maven though he is--John's recommendations are good!

kcarlile,

Thank you for affirming John's recommendations.

I took an online look at the Hsu STF-2, and it does seem like a GREAT value. Their CS department quoted me $120 for shipping. OUCH! Guess that is the price for living in Hawaii!

Would anyone have an SVS recommendation?

Aloha!

Brian

Yow! That's quite a price. I do love my EP350, and I've heard SVSs that are quite nice. There was a bit of a flap over their alleged marketing practices (slamming competitors on online forums or something) a few years back, so I think they've fallen out of favor. This may have also been completely false.


Also: I really shouldn't post at 5 AM. Brain no workie.

Believe it or not, the $120 is on the low end of the shipping charges that I've seen. Elemental Designs was looking for $200+.

Wife texted me to let me know that the M3's have been dropped off by FedEx! It is going to be a long afternoon!

I'd like to mention that it is absolutely refreshing to get non-Axiom recommendations on an Axiom board!

How would the EP400 fit into my situation? When I was into car audio MANY moons ago, I really liked the SQ of sealed boxes over the ported ones. What kind of audible differences are there between the 400, 350, and 500?

Aloha!
Brian

I would think the 400 would be a tad small for your room. If you are willing to spend that much check out the VTF 3 MK 3. or the EP 350.

Yeah Ken, "BigHonu", "middle of the sea" and "aloha" had already narrowed the possibilities a bit.

When I listened to the 350 and the 400, the 400 seemed to have quite a bit more output.

I wonder what the shipping on the SVS ultra13PC would be. It is probably a little lighter for shipping.

Once you factor in shipping, the Axiom subs do become a better value proposition.

FredK, SVS Canadian dealer is located in Richmond Hill, ON.

The SVS PC12-plus would be more comparable to the 400 price point with shipping.

The SVS PC13-Ultra, which I have, is closer to the 600 price point with shipping.

From the reviews I've read about the 400 it seemed that it does pack quite the punch. Its smaller size also makes it easier to integrate into my already crowded room.

When I checked the SVS site, shipping rates ran from $190 for the PC12-NSD to $200+ for the box configurations. Paying full retail to find something locally is starting to sound like the most cost effective strategy at the moment.

Again, thanks to everyone for the suggestions!

Aloha!

Brian

Brian, this is anecdotal as I haven't auditioned any of the subs in question (I have an older-design Axiom 350 that really is nothing like the current 350). Maybe it's not worth much, but here goes.

Everything I've heard about the 400 tells me it's a GREAT sub in a small room or with music. But since your room is relatively big, my gut feeling is that the 400 won't offer ANYWHERE near the performance as the 500 in your setup.

Although there are other makes that are generally considered a good value, Axiom offers free shipping (even to HI, I believe) and offers the advantage of matching the finish on your M3s.

FWIW.

And welcome, by the way!

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the welcome! This forum is one of the most well balanced manufacturer's forum I've been to. A great place to ask questions even if it is not purely Axiom related.

Yes, surprisingly I get the best shipping deal (free!) from a Canadian based company that ships its products out of NY!

With regards to room size, does my veiwing proximity to the sub make a difference? While the room is relatively large, the area that comprises my HT is, perhaps 10 x 14 with my viewing distance at 8ft. If the sub is placed along a wall, but next to the couch, would I be able to get away with a smaller design or does room dimensions trump proximity?

Excuse me for the HT/Audio 101 level questions, but I'm still trying to learn all of the technical nuances.

Aloha!
Brian

I guess I thought the newer 350 would have been more comparable to the Hsu than the 400. I know of one person that had both the Hsu VTF3 MK3 and the EP 500 and his opinion was the Hsu had better output and sounded better to him than the 500 although the 500 is quite a bit more money.

Even Craigsub has the Hsu rated higher.

I'm not exactly sure how much difference your proximity to the sub makes in a large room. I know that generally you need the capability of pressurizing the full room for best performance, but otherwise I'm a little out of my league here.

Anyone?

Mark, essentially omni-directional subwoofer frequencies do decline in sound pressure level with distance, although in a reverberant listening room the drop is far less than the theoretical 6dB per doubling of distance which occurs anechoically. So yes, subs are also louder when you're sitting closer to them.

Thanks, John. In my little room, I can't do anything BUT sit close to mine!

Mark's room is smaller than most subwoofers.

...and squarer.

::Running away.... oh wait! (Stops) Crap...they're right!::

I would audition some local subs and see what you like. Also, how big of a sub do you want (can you fit?) SVS subs hit hard for a good price - musically, I think there are better out there, but they do hit hard, no doubt about it. Check out Epik subs also..they have some good looking subs at good prices - the downside is they are quite large boxes, but I have yet to see or hear a bad review or a bad impression on them. I am not familiar with the Axiom subs, but for dollar to dollar, you certainly have a lot of good options out there to choose from

Shaun,

Thanks for the advice! Size wise, I'd like to get the smallest box I can get away with that will produce good bass down to 20hz. At this point, it sounds like something on the average 3.5sq feet or so. Realistically, I have only two placement options, both along the wall adjacent to the couch. Aesthetics dictate that the box (or cylinder) would need to be placed very close to the wall.

I am looking for shops to audition subs, aside from the local BB.

Epik (Vanquish) and SVS (PC12-NSD) are considerations, though the shipping to me would run around $200+. Best deal going so far is the Hsu STF-2 which would run $460ish shipped to my door.

Aloha!
Brian

I have basically the same sub, an older Hsu VTF 2, in a room of similar size and it does quite a good job. I don't think you would be disappointed.

Any Paradigm dealers near by? The DSP series sounds very much like the EP 350 and up subs. The DSP 3100 I auditioned against the EP350 v3 and v2 worked very well for music and was admirable for HT, the DSP 3200 works very well for both HT and music and the 3400 works better for HT and music still sounds great, at least to me.

+1 on the Paradigm DSP subs, imo they are very good performers and are priced competitively, and of course they are DSP controlled. I have the 3400, but have also heard the 3200, and they are both powerfull and accurate to my ear(s). I never got a chance to hear the 3100 but it's interesting that you compared it favourably against the EP350, Jay, considering the price tag on the Paradigm.

The 3100 was close the the EP350 but the 12" driver of the EP350 most definitly held the balance of power while watching a movie. I think the 3100 is a great over achiever.

jakewash,

Thank you for the reply! According to the Paradigm USA site, no dealers here.

We do have a KEF and a B&W dealer, though I have not read too many reviews of the subs they offer as their products don't normally show up in 'great bang-for-your-bucks' type articles.


I ordered a BIC-F12 though Amazon (free shipping!) just to get something in there. I know it will cost me more in the end to get two subs, but it is going to be more than a few months until I can save up for what I really want anyway (EP500 or SVS PC12-NSD at this point), and I can move the BIC to the den when the time comes. At least the front soundsatge is solid with the trip M3's!

Aloha!
Brian

BIC has a good reputation for low budget subs, please let us know what you think of it.

How much did the BIC cost? Free shipping, can't go wrong with that. If you get a chance take a picture of it for us. Congrats on your new sub!

I paid $198.00 to my door through Amazon.

I've read that the F12 seems to do okay with movies, though a little 'boomy' for music. At this point, it is better than having nothing at all.

Should be here in a week or so. Hopefully in one piece!

$198 shipped to Hawaii?

Wow

That was pretty much my reaction as well. New stock, and shipped to my door. Only subs I can get locally for anything close to that price are Sony and low end Polks. Almost too good to be true.

It will be a week or so before it arrives, and for all I know, it will be in an unmarked box that looks like it went through the garbage disposal. We will see...

On an unrelated note (though in line with the thread) has anyone heard a Bill Fitzmaurice designed sub?

Aloha!
Brian

congrats on your purchase...use it and get accustomed to the sound you are wanting and then go from there...like you said, you can always move the BIC to another room

Thats a great deal.

Agreed! I would have seriously thought about getting two and if you later decide you want something different you could probably sell the BICs and lose very little.

I got the BIC F12 in yesterday evening and am happy to report that everything not only arrived in one piece, but barely a dent or gouge in factory box!

I have my doubts that the sub is 'new' as the box and bag that the sub was in looked as if a first grader taped it up. Still, no scratches or blemishes, and from the very brief listening period I had last night, everything seems to be in working order.

The sub will not win any beauty contests. Just a rectangular box. The vinyl on the cabinet does match up well with the M3's however so that is a big plus.

It is front friring with a port on the back, and was extremely lucky in that the ONE space I had cleared for it worked out GREAT! I have the volume around a quarter of the way up, and Audyssey is still trimming 4dbs off of the signal.

I'll note my impressions and maybe snap a few pics once I have had the chance to devote some quality listening time. Kids were already in bed by the time I had run through the Audyssey calibration.

Enjoy! Good luck with setup.

Cheers!