Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater EP175 big enough?

Hey guys

I am debating about buying a new sub. As some of you know, I purchased a W22/W150/QS8 combo a couple months back. I currently have a Velodyne sub, but a small one, 10" driver and 150 watts. On paper it goes down to 36 Hz without help from a room. My room is only about 1850 cubic feet, and this will mostly be used with movies and TV. I am very happy with the sub overall, but I feel I am perhaps missing out on a bit of low end with it. I am debating amongst four options:

1. Keep the Velodyne and run it by itself
2. Buy an EP175 and sell the Velodyne
3. Buy an EP175 and daisy chain it along with the Velodyne (5.2)
4. Buy an EP350 and sell the Velodyne


I guess a fifth option if I stick with the 175 (or simply keep the Velo) by itself, that may free up some money to buy some M0's or W2's to upgrade to 7.1. I will be sitting far enough forward from the back wall I don't know if I want to use a Q speaker back there. Would a 6 and 7 channel be a better upgrade than a new sub?

As you noted the EP175 is rated at 36Hz so the extension is limited. The EP175 would work well for most music but for any demanding material such as pipe organ and pretty much every single reference quality Blu-ray movie out there the EP175 would struggle. The EP350 would be a great choice.

My choice would be option 4 .

Whatever you decide I would keep the Velodyne and run 2 subs in your room spaced out, which will give you a better FR. The 350 is a great sub.

I just found this...

I hope this isn't against board rules?

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddet...gon=&langid=EN#

Almost seems like a no brainer, as much as I would love to have the matching EP350, this is only 2/3 the price.

That's not against board rules since it's not a private-party sale.

Hmm, well after doing a bit of research, it seems that one is again better for music, but lacking for movies... Doesn't help me much.

Back to the drawing board...

Well, seems it's down to EP350, or SVS PB10-NSD.

If I am going with a 12" driver I think I would rather buy the EP350 to match finishes with what I have. The 10" SVS is significantly cheaper, but I still don't know if a 10" sub is going to do it for me. I emailed Axiom and am just waiting to hear back on their thoughts.

You want to move looooooooooooooooooooootsssssssssssssss of air.

Also check the Hsu STF 2. I know that would do a great job in a room of that size.

Problem with HSU is by the time you get it up here across the border, you better hope it comes with a giant bottle of Vaseline.

Daaagh... I am so bad at these decisions.

I would save almost $200 by getting a F/O EP350 in black as opposed to the matching HG Cherry that my speakers are. It'll be in back corner and the other sub is black, too. Maybe I should just do that.

Whats the shipping on the PB10? The EP350 will give you plenty of loudness in your room and is very clean for music: no bloat or boomyness. It won't rattle your teeth like the EP500/600, but it still has lots and lots of impact for movies. Waaay more than the 175!!

HG cherry is beautiful, but I would go for the FO for more rumble for the buck.

Shipping is $60, so the PB10 is $635. The f/o EP350 is $737, the HG Cherry one is $917. The big SVS, the PB12, is about $970... But I think that is overkill for my room.

No such thing as overkill. I would go for the SVS. I have the ep500. It is one hell of a sub. I recently upgraded from the 350. They are both great for music and pretty good for HT, but from everything I read SVS has more punch at a lower price point if you're looking to use it mostly for HT

What was shipping with Hsu?

Tater, if you don't go with the SVS or Axiom, consider the Paradigm DSP series of subs, they offer decent bang per $$(about $500-$750 depending size). That Future Shop deal on the Velodyne also looks tempting ($499), I don't know a whole lot about Velo subs however, I take it they are more "box" store.

Wow! When I bought my system the PB10 was $499 ($399 in the US) vs 735 for the EP350. It looks like SVS has had to raise prices and Axiom has really held the line.

At that price, I would give up a few db at the bottom end vs. the SVS to get very clean output and a solid upper end for music and punch. Go with the EP350. I don't know anything about Velodine so I can't comment on it.

Honestly, it's not that bad. If you actually ship this stuff across the border, you get rammed with duties and brokerage like you wouldn't believe. I live close enough to the border I can just go get it myself, done this literally dozens of times over the years, but I try to buy within Canada if the price is reasonable. Warranty issues are brutal to deal with as well without a supplier in your country.

I am still just waiting to hear back from Axiom with their thoughts, but I think overall we're making some progress.

Since this wasn't addressed I will throw in my two cents... I 'LOVE' the enveloping experience that 7 channel audio gives you, I currently am only running 5 channels, but I plan on upgrading to 7 (going to skip right past 6 channel and straight to 7) channels as soon as I can. However, I personally feel that bass adds even more to the experience than a 6th or 7th channel would. Since you are already running 5 channels I don't think the 6th or 7th channel would add nearly as much to your experience as a well designed, and placed sub would give you.

Again, that's just my own two cents.

Agreed, and I'll raise you another two cents, get a nice sub first then think about going 7.1 down the road. You're missing a lot more without the sub than you are by not going to 7.1.

There's no sub for a sub.

I think you may have just created a catch phrase to end all catch phrases!!!

Ok well, I have decided to definately go with a sub, just deciding which.

I am really tempted to just go ahead and buy the 6 and 7 channels as well, but actually looking into what is out there in 7.1, it's not much. Only about 10% of Blu-Ray so far is in lossless 7.1, really not much bang for your buck there.

Potatohead, you're certainly right, very few titles are 7.1, but that isn't to say you wouldn't appreciate a 7.1 system more then 5.1 just because you aren't getting discreet sound to all speakers. Depending on the size of your room, adding the two more channels will just fill out your sound stage so to speak and give you a more encompassing experience, I'd still consider it if it is in the budget. We recently did my fathers basement theatre over and started with 5.1, but with the size of the room, things just sounded a little empty in the sides and rear, adding two more speakers just really filled the space up better.

Mr. Potatohead - like roar says moving from 5.1 to 7.1 is IMO very room dependent with larger rooms usually benefiting more. Additionally I also thinks it helps more if you have multiple rows of seating.

Also I’ve found that the QS8s do a great job as rear speakers especially when seating is close but the further away the back wall the more I prefer my M22s as rear speakers. Keep that in mind if your room is deep since you could upgrade to 7.1 for a lot less money by getting M22 or M2 rears. As always YMMV.

My room is 19' deep x 13' wide. The couch will be at about 15' back, so about 4' from the back wall. I plan on mounting the side QS8's about 6" - 1' behind the couch on the side walls. Because of the door on the back wall, I am unable to place the 6 and 7 channel speakers any more than 20" in from the side walls, so they'll be about 9' apart. If I could place them more towards the center I would probably go with W2's, but since they would be more spread out I would probably be better with a Q series speaker I think (unfortunately)... Unless the couch being 4' off the back wall will allow the W2's enough room to disperse the sound... I am not sure on that.

What kind of program does a receiver use to change 5.1 to 7.1 anyway? I know there is ProLogic IIx but I thought that was for stereo source only. If you are bitstreaming lossless 5.1 to the receiver, how do you get it to output 7.1?

I know from experience that PLIIx will convert 2.0, 3.0 5.1 to 7.1. John is our resident expert on it but AFAIR it only extracts ambient sounds and sends them to the extra channels. I didn’t catch what type of receiver you have but there should be a selection to have it apply PLIIx to any digital source.

If you only have 4 feet behind your seating I would stick with QS speakers for rears if you choose to go with rear speakers. Just to get some idea of how it will sound if you have a couple old speakers laying around hook them up and place them where you would for 7.1 and have a listen. Won’t be exact but it might give you an idea how much it will help.

Based on your room description I think you might benefit from rear speakers. You don’t have much room behind you for the rear soundstage to develop from the surrounds but do have just enough room for rear speakers to fill in the rear soundstage.


BTW my room is almost the same size 21 x 13.5

If you're using Audyssey, I believe it detects the additional back speakers automatically, doesn't it? I'm running 5.1 so I'm not positive on this, otherwise if you do it manually you have to go through the 'speaker setup/configuration' and have to change the 'Amp Assign' from 'Zone 2' to 'Main Zone' and '7.1' from what I can decipher from THE Denon Manual.

Receiver will be a Denon 1910

I will try the Audyssey but if it's anything like the setup my old Onkyo did in my old place, I'll be editing half of it anyway.

In short though, if you tell the receiver you are using all 7 channels, it will matrix 7.1 content on virtually everything but stereo?

Lastly, as stated, I have QS8's for the sides. Should I use QS8's for the rears as well, or will QS4's do fine? I'm thinking the 4's have to be a nice upgrade from a W2, and I might not gain much from the 8's with my setup.

Thanks again guys, this forum is so helpful.

Not sure if your Denon works the same as my 2807 but you don’t have to use Audyssey. You run the auto setup and then just turn Audyssey off. Personally I find it’s faster just to grab a tape measurer.

You can just go into the Denons setup menu and tell it if you have rear speakers. It should allow you to select between none, one or two.

Dolby PLIIx will only pull out matrixed information if it’s recorded that way. It will also pull out ambient sounds even in non matrixed 2.0 and feed it to the side and rear speakers. How well this works depends on how much ambient sound is present on the recording.

I think the QS4 would do fine. Personally I think 7.1 is overrated especially if your using QS8 surrounds but for some people it seem to work really well. But then I don’t like Audyssey either so what do I know.

Since you already have QS8's for the sides, you would be best to use QS8's for your rears too. The 8's, imo, offer much more speaker for not much more $$ compared to the 4's, but that's entirely up to you. Your room is similar in size to my room, I don't think I'd go with one of the "M" speakers as rears, you are too close to them imo.

Well, I just spent about 15 minutes downstairs in my room checking out different options. I held up both my QS8's, one on the side wall, and one on the back where it would go. They are less than 3' apart. I just can't see a huge gain with them being in such close proximity.

In hindsight it was kind of dumb to offset the door which messes up the 6 and 7 channel placement, but I thought it would look odd to put it right in the middle of the back wall, plus I would have less usable space because of all the door swing.

So... What I think would be a very good solution is to buy a single QS8, and do a 6.1 setup. The wall is still open to run the wire and it would be cake to buy another and switch to 7.1 if I ever feel the need.

There is only 360 cubic feet behind the couch, I just cannot see three QS8's having any problem at all filling that.

I assume the Denon would have no problems downmixing 7.1 content to get to 6.1. I checked out the manual and it says there is an option for single rear surround, where it mixes both rear channel info into the one.

Tater, do you really feel you need rear speakers in that size of room? as I mentioned, my room is virtually the same size as yours(19x13x8) and to me, I'm not feeling I need the rears...perhaps if the room were 3-4 ft longer I'd consider it. A single rear in the centre might be ok, but imo 7.1 could use more space.

For sure run the wires both for 6.1 and 7.1 since the cost will be minimal compared to everything you’re doing.

I’m with Adrian that rear speakers just may not be worth the cost/effort. Have you run a 5.1 system with the QS8s with the setup you have now? If not give it a chance before committing to 6/7.1. In my 21 x 13.5 x 8-12vaulted room I’ve switched back to 5.1 for now. I have no dedicated 7.1 sources so everything is DPLIIx and find no improvement using 7.1 over 5.1 for movies or music, and 7.1 actually makes most directional cues in games sound much worse.

Now I do have about 7 feet behind my seats and place my surrounds further back than most which probably allows for a better rear soundstage to develop from the surrounds than 4 feet would.

Problem you might encounter with 6.1 that close is that “rear” sounds may seem to those sitting on the left/right of center to be coming from the side and not the rear. So 7.1 may actually work better since it will spread the rear sound source out across the back. Maybe someone with a similar setup will chime in with real experience. Even then the only way to know if it will work for you is to give it a try. You can always order a couple rears try them out and ship them back if you decide it’s not worth it.

Two QS8s will have no problem filling the space behind you with more sound than you will want. IMO your best bet is to start out with 5.1 and if possible experiment with the surround’s positions. You may find you really don’t need 7.1 right now and later when more discrete 7.1 material becomes available if you’ve pre-wired you can easily upgrade.

Your Denon should have no problem delivering 6.1 from 7.1, 5.1, 3.0...

Tater, your 4' distance from the back wall can be considered marginal for getting benefits from back surround speakers(I often say at least 4' is okay, but this isn't something that can stated with precision). The scarcity of material with discrete 7-channel content isn't necessarily a decisive factor. Modes such as DPLIIx expand ambient content in two channel material(present in varying amounts)in to different signals to left and right back surrounds(one center back surround doesn't do the same thing)and also expand the discrete side surround material in 5.1 material to the back surrounds(leaving the front channels untouched, since there's already surround material in the side channels).

If back surrounds are used in a 7.1 setup the side surrounds are best placed directly to the side of the listening position, to give the best side effect(not extremely critical, especially with QSs). If there're no actual back surround speakers used, the side surrounds might be better placed a couple feet farther back to lend a bit of a phantom back surround effect.

John - how does DPLIIx pull the rear channels from a 2.0 recording. Does it pull the ambient sound from the L/R channel and feed it to the L/R surround and then take whatever is the same in those surround channels and send it to the rears? I ask because even on 2.0 sources there is sound coming from the rear speakers when I use them but have never been sure how it processed this.

Dean, detected out-of-phase surround ambience material which is entirely in the left front channel is sent to the left side surround only. That material which is also present to a smaller extent in the right front channel is sent mostly to the left back surround so that it images in the left rear. That ambient material which is equally present in the left and right front channels is sent equally to the left and right back surrounds so that it images in the back center. Similar analysis starting with the right front channel, of course. The concept is to theoretically get a transition of sound arrival directions more closely matching the recording venue.

Thanks now it makes more sense why games often have nothing coming from the rears despite intense directional pans from the surrounds.

One more question…how then do they derive the height channel for 9.1?

As far as I know that hasn't been a detailed description of how the height information is derived. It would clearly have to be sound that's out-of-phase with the direct sound and is non-directional, but how stuff better heard from above is separated from back surround, for example, isn't clear.

You see, this is why a board like this is so valuable. Everywhere you look, it's 7.1 this, 7.2 that... Only on a board like this can you get real world experience and input from people that have done it.

No, I have not tried my setup yet as I am still building the room. I just really don't like doing things half-heartedly knowing there is something "better" out there, but hearing people who have done it tell you it's not worth it really means something.

I ran the wire for the rear centre tonight, but I think I am going to do what you guys are saying (repeatedly), and that's to move the sides back a foot, and run the 5.1. When Grunt said 7.1 isn't very good for gaming.. That strikes a chord because you need to hear properly for first person shooters, which I love to play. I guess it only makes sense to try what I have first, I have nothing to lose.

I am going to order a sub tomorrow, 95% sure on it, but I'll report back once I order. I guess that is what this thread is all about after all.

I didn’t realize you gamed or I would have given a more detailed explanation of what is said about gaming. I’m specifically talking about when using 7.1 with traditional speaker placement meaning the surrounds at the side and not a few feet back (which sort of defeats the purpose of 7.1). It doesn’t effect the ambient sounds but then that’s not what’s gonna get you killed. It does really screw up the directional cues. Instead of a sound coming from behind you like it should it usually comes from of to one side or the other.

You can really notice this effect in a game like “Elder Scrolls Oblivion” when you turn your character around in a circle when standing near someone who is talking or near a big fire. The sound pans around until it gets to the back of one side and the gets softer until it jumps to the other side. However with 5.1 and the speakers a little farther back the rear pans are seamless, at least with the QS8s. It’s the phantom back effect John talked about.

Although it’s considered an audio no-no if you do experiment try the QS8s in the corners with a tweeter firing down each wall. The best rear soundstage I ever got was set up like this. The only drawback was some movies like “Master and Commander” got a little boomy when cannonballs were ripping through the ship. So I moved them forward just a bit and got a good compromise.

Once I get some dedicated 7.1 sources and especially if games start shipping in 7.1 I’ll revisit using rears but for now I like 5.1 better.

However, just remember like my avatar I’m an Oddball.

Agreed. A good sub brings way more into the game than going from 5.1 to 7.1 I had 7.1 in a smaller 12x12' room and took it out as I felt the only thing the rear channel was adding were tippy speaker stands that were hard to get around. In my soon to be larger room (double the length,) I will be experimenting with 7.1 again but still would definitely invest in good subs first.

This is pretty funny actually... I knew what you meant with the sound coming from the wrong direction, and in first person shooters (especially online) you have to know where people are and if they are sneaking up on you, or in a room beside you, if you don't want to get blasted all day long.

Oblivion is actually my favorite single player game ever, I probably have 300+ hours into that game. Funny thing is, I hated RPG's until I tried that one... Just an incredible game all around.

I am going to put the QS8's about a foot back from the couch, which will put them about 3 feet from the back wall. From there it's nothing some drywall mud and paint can't fix if I decide to move them later. After sleeping on it some more, I do agree until there is more source material for 7.1, there isn't much point at this time for me to go that way.

I am going to order the PB12-NSD as well. I really want to go Axiom but it seems with the PB12 you're getting pretty much an EP500 for EP350 pricing.

Well, the SVS has been ordered. I guess it's easier to ask for forgiveness, than for permission. Mind you, if I'm not posting in a couple weeks, please send help.


112 lbs shipping weight !!##$! What have I got myself into

Better order a doghouse big enough for that sucker!

Well, it arrived today.

It is freaking huge. It makes my old Velodyne look like an M22.

My wife saw it and her only words were "holy crap" followed by "how much was that thing?"

I love it

Pictures? Have you hooked it up yet? I still don't get why they don't try slapping a few different finishes on them, I mean for variety and all. A real wood, or wood venere.... heck even a piano black would be kind of sweet. If you want the felt then by all means.... but it just seems kind of hard to make an enormous felt cyclinder blend in with anything at all?

Hi Grunt,

My understanding of the signals for the height channels is that if there is out-of-phase ambient sound present at equal levels in both channels--like the sound of rain, or waves crashing on a beach, or a howling wind, etc--they pull that and send it to the height channels.

This may explain why if you already have effective surround channels installed (like the QS quadpolar surrounds) which will deliver a highly immersive sense of surround, it becomes very difficult to determine whether the height channels are contributing anything at all.

I ran into an acquaintance from Cnet at a Manhattan press conference and he reported that they conducted a quasi-blind listening test of the height channels turned on or off and no-one could reliably tell when they were on or off. The results were entirely random. Listeners thought they were on when in fact they were not, and vice-versa.

Regards,
Alan

I am almost done drywalling my room, then onto mudding, then painting, then floor, then enjoy Probably be another month or so, but I'll post some pictures up when it's done.

I do agree the black is boring. I was very close to ordering an EP350 in the HG Cherry to match the rest of my Axioms, but the reviews on the SVS and the fact it's just going to sit in a back corner anyway swayed me that way. HSU does offer a few different veneers, but (of course) there is no Canadian distributor. Seriously though, this thing is so big it could be invisible and it would still be in the way. I can't imagine what the top end models are like... Or guys with EP800's for example

Which SVS did you get? I must have missed it somewhere in the thread. I know it isn't the PB13 Ultra, that weighs 150lbs which I know all too well.

PB12 NSD

There was a thread from about a year ago I think you posted in that swayed me that way... You tested about four different subs and were impressed with the PB12. My room is only about 1700 cubic feet so this thing should be plenty big.

I did like the PB12, even though I found for my room and tastes, it had a little too much punch in the 50-60 hz range and the graphs I have seen of it's output confirm it has a bit of a rise at that frequency. I just had to play a little with its positioning to smooth out it's sound. I am sure you will be quite happy with it.

The PB12 should be plenty sub for your room.