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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Zimm #275043 10/15/09 02:19 AM
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Naw, Charles; no Denon, including your 3300, clips at a number below its power rating unless it's defective. At the rated number all receivers have distortion below audibility and are nowhere near clipping.


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
JohnK #275044 10/15/09 03:11 AM
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Hey, can someone pass the popcorn?


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Ken.C #275064 10/15/09 01:09 PM
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I used up all my popcorn reserves last month, sorry.


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
JohnK #275085 10/15/09 05:37 PM
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 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Naw, Charles; no Denon, including your 3300, clips at a number below its power rating unless it's defective. At the rated number all receivers have distortion below audibility and are nowhere near clipping.


I see your "Naw" and raise you one HT Labs Measurement from Home Theater Magazine, November 1999. Maybe they don't mean clipping, I don't know. But it explains (to me) why my experience with more clean power has not jived with your knowledge of the controlling equations. I could have misunderstood it, no doubt about that.

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Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Zimm #275087 10/15/09 06:20 PM
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 Quote:
Maybe they don't mean clipping, ...

From Wikipedia (I know, great source):
 Quote:
Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven, which happens through attempts to increase the voltage or current beyond its maximum power capability


So, if the receiver hit maximum power at 78.6 watts, how did they 'push' an extra 57 watts through it to get to 135 watts? Admittedly, my knowledge of electronics is shaky, so I'm open to a reasonable explanation of how this could happen.


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
fredk #275089 10/15/09 06:23 PM
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Also, I'd say that .016% distortion is pretty damn low. I wonder what they mean by clipping.


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Ken.C #275091 10/15/09 06:43 PM
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A clipped waveform is by definition distorted. So before the amp starts clipping in the least there's a 0.016% THD. The while the clipping may not be hugely detrimental at 135 Watts, it has increased the distortion level to 1%.

From Wikipedia on Clipping:
"Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven, which happens through attempts to increase the voltage or current beyond its maximum power capability. Driving an amplifier into clipping causes it to put out power in excess of its published ratings, which are customarily done with a "clean" sine wave signal just at the onset of clipping."


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Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
ClubNeon #275097 10/15/09 08:11 PM
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Right, it can keep pouring more fuel on the fire, it just gets more and more distorted as more of the signals peak is chopped off - i.e., there is more area in the clipped segment of the signal cone. My Denon gets harsh on certain frequencies when driven hard. My separate amp does not, because it is not clipping the signal at the same db as the Denon was.

Maybe my Denon and the HT Mag test unit came from the same defective lot? Then again, I don't think I even had it at the time of this press release.


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Zimm #275100 10/15/09 08:37 PM
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And here is another example i found; again, I could be mis-reading this but it looks to me like this modern amp can't meet its rated output without clipping the signal:
S&V TestYamaha RX-V863 A/V receiver
Rated: • 7 x 105 watts
Test Report
(continued)
By Daniel Kumin
September 2008
DOLBY DIGITAL PERFORMANCE
All data were obtained from various test DVDs using 16-bit dithered test signals, which set limits on measured distorting and noise performance. Reference input level is -20 dBFS, and reference output is 1 watt into 8 ohms. Volume setting for reference level was -3. All level trims at zero, except for subwoofer-related tests, all speakers were set to "large," subwoofer on. All are worst-case figures where applicable.

Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 77/111* W (18.9/20.5 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 45 W (16.5 dBW)
6 channels driven (8 ohms): 41 W (16.1 dBW)
Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)
8/4 ohms: 0.05/0.05%
Noise level (A-wtd): -71.8 dB
Excess noise (with sine tone)
16-bit (EN16): 0.6 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +0, -0.1 dB
* Speaker-impedance setup software-switch at "8-ohm" position. With switch set to "6-ohm," output was limited to about 35 watts (15.4 dBW) in all tests.

MULTICHANNEL PERFORMANCE, ANALOG INPUT
Reference input and output level is 200 mV; volume setting for reference output level was -3.5 dB.

Distortion (THD+N, 1 kHz, 8 ohms): 0.03%
Noise level (A-wtd.): -85.3
Frequency response: <10 Hz to 138 kHz +0, -3 dB

STEREO PERFORMANCE, DIGITAL INPUT
Reference level is -20 dBFS; all level trims at zero. Volume setting for reference level was -3.5.

Output at clipping (1 kHz, 8/4 ohms, both channels driven): 66/97 W* (18.2/19.9 dBW)*
Distortion at reference level: 0.04%
Linearity error (at -90 dBFS): 1.5 dB
Noise level (A-wtd): -76.4 dB
with 96-kHz/24-bit signals: -80.5 dB
Excess noise (with/without sine tone)
16-bit (EN16): 0.35/0.5 dB
quasi-20-bit (EN20): 12.5/10.1 dB
Noise modulation: 3.3 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +0, -0.2 dB
with 96-kHz/24-bit signals: 20 Hz to 43 kHz +0 -3 dB
*Speaker-impedance setup software-switch at "8-ohm" position. With switch set to "6-ohm," output was limited to about 35 watts (15.4 dBW) in all tests.


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: B&K Receiver for M80's
Zimm #275103 10/15/09 08:47 PM
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How can these all be wrong? Here is a "•100 watts x 7 (per channel, 8 ohms, 1% THD)"" Sony clipping at about 75:
Sony STR-DG910 A/V Receiver [2007]
STEREO PERFORMANCE, DIGITAL INPUT

Reference level is -20 dBFS; all level trims at zero. Volume setting for reference level was 60.

Output at clipping (1 kHz, 8/4 ohms, both channels driven): 75/109 watts (18.8/20.4 dBW)Distortion at reference level: 0.05%
Linearity error (at -90 dBFS): 1 dB
Noise level (A-weighted): -74.5 dB
with 96-kHz/24-bit signals: -78.8 dB
Excess noise (with/without sine tone)
16-bit (EN16): 0.25/0.35 dB
quasi-20-bit (EN20): 14.7/14.8 dB
Noise modulation: 0.6 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +0, -0.1 dB
with 96-kHz/24-bit signals: 20 Hz to 43 kHz +0, -0.5 dB


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
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