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Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
#281001 12/01/09 02:48 AM
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Hi!

I'm looking for advice from fellow Axiom owners who know more about sound than me (I'm a rookie so this means most of you!) and more specifically those of you who moved from bookshelf to floorstanding speakers in the past.

My current setup (about 2 months old) consists of a pair of M3s, a VP100, an EP175 sub and 2 unknown ceiling-mounted speakers (were already there when I moved in). Everything is fed by a Denon AVR-590 pushing 75w per channel. I use it to watch movies (70%) and listen to music (30%). The room in which the system resides is about 2500 cubic feet. Here's a nifty pic:



I'm VERY satisfied with the sound quality but I am a bit picky and find some things are not 100% what I'd like them to be:

- I sometimes have the feeling my VP100 is "too much" for my M3s when watching movies. I've tried tweaking the channel level of the VP100 so its more balanced with the M3s and it's a bit better, but not perfect.

- My EP175 churns out more deep bass than I need but I feel the mid-bass aren't enough especially when listening to music. E.g.: In a heavy song like "Sad But True" from Metallica, the guitar lacks "ooomph". The drum kicks in with serious bass but somehow I'm not finding the mid-bass I'm looking for in the guitar.

So there I am, juggling with the idea that maybe to get what I want, I need a bigger enclosure and more "displacement" in my main speakers so they can go "full range".

Do you think I should pull the trigger and get M60s considering that I do not intend to change my receiver? This means I'll only be pipping an entry-level 75w in my M60s, is it worth it? I found that with my current setup, the level at which I enjoy most my music/movies is somewhere between -25db and -15db. If I feed the same amount of power in my M60s, will I be able to get a similar volume or will I need to push it? Am I getting this all wrong?

Any input is greatly appreciated. Should I do it, or not, or maybe invest more time into tweaking my current setup? I don't know. However one thing is sure I'm sticking with Axiom I still can't believe the quality I got for the price I paid.

Thanks! \:\)

- M.

M60s: Yay or Nay?
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 12/01/09 02:47 AM
Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
Mendossa #281002 12/01/09 03:07 AM
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M, welcome. I voted "it's more complicated". We don't know exactly what frequencies you may think are "mid-bass" and whether it would be the sub or the speakers that would reproduce them. In any case, since you say that the problem isn't the deep bass, getting bigger, more nearly "full range" speakers to play more of the deep bass wouldn't appear to be the solution.

If you did get the M60s, there should be no problem with a lack of power, since the M60 is actually slightly more sensitive that the M3(contrary to some beliefs, the bigger speakers in a given line often need less power than the smaller ones)and requires a bit less power for the volume settings that you mention.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
JohnK #281003 12/01/09 03:11 AM
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I voted Yay... I am a member of the bigger is better club.


-David
Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
terzaghi #281011 12/01/09 03:30 AM
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A larger throw rug in that room might help as well...lots of exposed floor there.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
Adrian #281014 12/01/09 03:36 AM
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I also would choose less shiny floor space. Try just throwing a big blanket over the floor between the TV and the coffee table and see what this does to the bass. I would be interrested to know the answer to that.

Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
CatBrat #281022 12/01/09 04:23 AM
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That is a very nice room. \:\) You don't mention how you have your receiver setup/calibrated. Hopefully, you have the other speakers set to "small" with an 80hz crossover as a starting point.

The 60's will give you more dynamics with the additional tweets/mid's/woofers and the larger cabinet will produce more bass in the room.

The receiver should be fine. Have you run the built in Audyssey Mult EQ on the Denon from multiple locations?


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB SonyUBPX800


Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
SirQuack #281026 12/01/09 04:40 AM
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@sirquack

Thanks! We moved in quite recently and worked hard at decorating the room on a budget. Thank you IKEA!

I do have the speakers set to small with a 80hz crossover freq. I tried various other settings (M3s at 60hz, VP100 at 95hz, etc) but in the end the best curve (to my ears) was attained with 80hz all-around.

I did run the Audyssey Mult EQ quite a few times with up to 6 locations. It does sound better with it on, although I'm not convinced of the preciseness of that feature since it doesn't give the same results consistently when I run it multiple times. It adjusts levels and distance/delay perfectly but the crossover values are different every time (20% of the time it tells me my M3 are full range, the rest of the time it varies from a recommended crossover of 40hz up to 100hz).

I'll try throwing a thick blanket over the floor as was suggested... if that'd do the trick, it would be quite an inexpensive fix \:\)

Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
Mendossa #281027 12/01/09 05:00 AM
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Another thing to consider is room speaker interaction. Try listening from positions in front of and behind your normal listening position to see if the mid bass suddenly appears.

If you can hear differences in the mid bass as you listen from different positions, its a room issue.


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
fredk #281029 12/01/09 05:26 AM
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I voted keep the M3s. Most of a movie soundtrack comes from the center channel. A pair of M3s and a good sub is pretty much indistinguishable from a pair of M60s and a good sub at reasonable volume levels. Big Will and I put this to the test with his very fine living room HT system.

At high volumes in a large space, the extra drivers in the M60s would move a sufficiently greater amount of air to make a difference.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Moving from M3 to M60: Yay or Nay?
Mendossa #281030 12/01/09 05:28 AM
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First off I’m the second “It’s more complicated than that” vote.

Secondly, awesome looking room! And neat workup on the pictures.

 Quote:

- I sometimes have the feeling my VP100 is "too much" for my M3s when watching movies. I've tried tweaking the channel level of the VP100 so its more balanced with the M3s and it's a bit better, but not perfect.


Since you tweaked the channel level and that only took care of part of it can you describe more specifically what “too much” still is?

I’m not sure how accurate this is but it might give us a common frame of reference to know what frequencies you are needing help with:

http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0400/OctaveEQ.htm

In the mean time although it doesn’t look like it if you have some placemen flexibility try pulling your speakers out some from the screen and walls. Nearby objects can greatly colour the sound of speakers cause them to sound like they don’t match up as well as the should.

 Quote:

- My EP175 churns out more deep bass than I need but I feel the mid-bass aren't enough especially when listening to music. E.g.: In a heavy song like "Sad But True" from Metallica, the guitar lacks "ooomph". The drum kicks in with serious bass but somehow I'm not finding the mid-bass I'm looking for in the guitar.

Based on what you are saying I it does sound like the issue is with your M3s since at an 80Hz crossover they're where most of the guitar is coming from. Ironically the M3 is suppose to have a bit of a mid-bass hump to make it sound a little “fuller.”

You mentioned trying different crossovers. Have you tried setting your M3s to 90, 100, 110, 120. I wouldn’t normally recommend a higher crossover for normal use but if the mid-bass improves by sending more of it to the EP175 that might be good indication it’s really the M3 that aren’t performing.


3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
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