Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Learning to use my Denon AVR-890

Hi,

As some of you already know, I started to build my future HT last week. For now, I have the AVR-890 and M80s for the front. Since it's my first HT, this is the first receiver that I have used. I already ran Audyssey. Also I've been playing with it all week, there is a couple of things so far that I can't seem to figure out and the Denon user manual is not really "newbie friendly":

1) I have the TV, the receiver and the blu ray player connected thru HDMI. I have the HDMI control feature enable as I like the fact that when I turn on the TV or the BDP, the RCV turns on. The problem that I found is that when I turn on the BDP to listen to a CD, the TV and RCV also turn on, then since I am listening to music, I turn off the TV and then the BDP and RCV also turn off. Is there a way to only enable some off the turn ON/OFF features or my only choice is to disable HDMI control all together?

2) When watching video content, DVD, BD or even flipping thru TV channels, I noticed that the RCV displays "offset -XdB" with X changing. What exactly does that mean? I couldn't find it on the manual.

3) Finally my biggest issue. As I said, for now I only have the fronts. When watching a DVD, Dolby Digital shows up on the RCV. I can ear everything perfectly clear except the dialog. I understand that in a 5.1 movie, most of the dialog goes to the center channel that I don't have. The problem is that most movies nowadays don't come with the stereo soundtrack anymore. I tried to set the RCV to stereo, and STEREO shows on the display but I didn't hear much difference. I also tried different modes like DIRECT, PURE, and other Denon effect, but nothing really helped. Is there a way that I can set the RCV to send the center channel track to the fronts? Can I do something or do I have to live with this until I get a center?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Bruno

1) I don't have the answer, but seems this topic was discussed recently on another thread, I'm sure someone will chime in..

2) Mine does that as well, it is normal. Don't have the answer as to why.

3) If you have the receiver set to "no" center, the front left/right speakers give you the center experience in what is called phantom mode. Actually, if your sitting in the sweet spot, you should not notice a difference in dialog from when you get a center channel. When you start to move off to either side, that is where the phantom mode does not work as well.

You should be using "standard" mode which would display Dolby Digital, or whatever the standard movie track is set for...

I have the center set to "no". I must be doing something else wrong then.

For 1) disable that feature and get a harmony remote. As you have discovered you can't program through the receiver which component you want to use so they all turn on. Using the Harmony or similar remote you can program any setup you want.

Are all your speaker options set to off except FL and FR?
Mel

Hi Mel,

Is there a specific model number that you recommend for the remote?

Yes everything off except FL/FR.

I am loving my Harmony One, I would also look to the harmony 700. The newer style feels better in your hand.

The Harmony one does look good. Can you access all the menus of all the devices with it or do you still need some of the original remotes for some functions? How complicated is it to program?

I have the Harmony One as well. For my use I just use the settings that were available. If I need anything extra remote wise which is rare I just grab the original remote. It's not that complicated to programme through your computer. If you have any problems there are many here that can help you out.
Mel

I have the same receiver (2310) so I should be able to provide some input.

1. HDMI control is NOT what turns the other components connected to the receiver on or off (and vice versa). HDMI control keeps the last HDMI input you were using powered when the receiver is in standy mode. This allows someoone to watch TV using the TV speakers if they do not want to crank up the receiver and surround, for example. There is a seperate setting once HDMI control is turned on which is responsible for powering the receiver when another connected component is turned on. I don't remember the name but it's under HDMI settings in the menu, and I know it can only be used when the HDMI control is on.

2. Pretty sure this is Audyssey Dynamic Volume at work. I noticed this as well but have never paid much attention to it.

3. Leave the Denon in "auto" and displaying Dolby Digital. In the speaker setup menu you should only have it set to the speakers you have. If there is no center, the receiver should automatically direct center information to the front L & F.

You can program the One to do anything the original could do. I have mine set up to change the aspect ratio of the TV when I switch from SDTV to HDTV/DVD.

Bruno, this question was asked a few weeks ago by me!

Ok, first off, I have a 2809 Denon combined with a Sammy 6 series LCD....here's what I had to do...

Go into the menue on the TV and scroll down untill you see "Wiselink".

"Enter"

The screen shows "Anynet + (HDMI-CEC)"

Make sure this is "OFF".

You should now have your Blu Ray and TV independently controlled.

1) yes, there is the "HDMI power ON" setting. I disable it an now everything is powered on and off independently. I liked the fact that when turning the TV on, the RCV would turn on by itself. Oh well, I can live with that, it's just too bad that Denon doesn't give you the option to control the power independently. One more thing is now, if the RCV is on and then I turn on the TV, the input switches to TV but the RCV doesn't disable the TV speakers like before and so have to disable it manually. However, if the TV is on then I turn the RCV on, the input switches to TV and the TV speakers get disables. I guess it's a mistake from the software point of view.

2)Dynamic volume is off, but I'm sure it's something else done by Audyssey. It doesn't bother me. I was just curious.

3)Only the LF and LR are selected. Maybe it's working properly, it's just I find the dialog to be so low in volume compared to the rest of the movie. Maybe its because I never had a HT before and it's supposed to be like this. It sure bothers me though...

Adrian:
Thanks again for your advice. I need to give it a try.

Bruno, just to confirm what others have said, when you set the receiver to show no center speaker, the center channel is automatically sent equally to the two mains, giving a "phantom" center channel; no other special setting is needed. As Alan and others have pointed out in the past, the dialog in the center channel in some DVDs isn't mixed high enough for easy intelligibility. One of the advantages of a separate center speaker is that its level can independently be bumped up a few dB to help with dialog. This of course isn't possible with the mains handling everything and there's no simple solution for those DVDs which have this problem.

I didn't know that. That would make sense. I will have to try a few more movies and will let you know in a few days.

That makes sense to me as well. I do find I have to have the center up a couple db and listening at a decent volume to hear the center clearly. I imagine with a phantom center this would be an issue for me. It's twice as bad during sporting events when they start mixing in crowd noise, you can barely hear the darn commentators unless it's a decent (say 15 db below reference) volume. I would imagine it's working properly for you though because if you tell the receiver you have a center, and unhook it, you can hear virtually no dialogue at all, maybe 10 - 20% normal volume.

Check out the Harmony 890 as well. FShop has refurbs for a great price right now. I've been using it for several years and it works great. You would also get RF capabilities for now or later if you ever hide your equipment. It used to list for $400+ CDN.

EFalardeau has one as well, so PM him if you like on his thoughts of this great remote. The One looks great and all the Harmony remotes I've used are easy to program and are comfortable in your hand.

Dynamic Range Compression(DRC)?

This may or may not be the issue, I'd have to hear your system to be sure. I notice that a great many movies these days are mixed to be very... uh... dramatic.

When listening at a moderate volume *the dialogue is a little quiet and you have to actively listen to hear what is being said* then some action comes on and *THE MUSIC AND SOUND EFFECTS ARE OVERWHELMING*. Of course at a low volume the action is OK and the dialogue is really hard to hear. At a high volume the dialog is ok and the effects and music are over the top.


If this is what you are experiencing you may want to turn on Dynamic Range Compression on your BRD/DVD player or on the Reciever. I'm not sure what the option is called in the Denon.

Hope I'm not off-base and this helps
snazzed

Yes, that's what I am experiencing. Is the DRC similar to what is applied when Dynamic volume is enabled. I found out that by turning on Dynamic Volume, I don't have these ups and downs in volume anymore but it doesn't make the dialog clearer. I tought I should leave it off. After all, isn't the dramatic effect part of the whole movie experience
I will check the DRC feature tonight though and see if it helps. Thanks.

See if this will help with your unfriendly manual...

BATPIG'S "DENON-TO-ENGLISH DICTIONARY" SETUP GUIDE AND FAQ

Snazzed, I played with the DRC on/off and only noticed a minimal attenuation in the dynamic range. Unfortunately it didn't help with the dialog. I thing that Johnk is correct and it's something in the mixing. Once I'll get a center, if it's not clear enough for me, I'll just raise the center channel by a few dBs.

Eno, thanks for the link, it looks very helpful.

For those of you that have the harmony remote, does it keep track of which devices are on or off at anytime? What I am getting at is:
-if I want to listen to a CD for example,
- if nothing was on, it needs to turn on the CD player and the receiver but
- if previous to that I was watching TV, the same function needs to turn on the CD player, the receiver but also turn off the TV (if it knows that the TV was on)
Can it do that?

Am about to purchase either the 2310 or 3310 but am a little confused ..

2310 does not have pre-outs but the 3310 does.

I hear that Denon can handle 4 Ohms, as I have M80's, provided you don't push it too loud before it shuts down. But how loud is loud ? (for those who currently have 2310 ?)

Would love to be able to use an external amp to push my fronts (L, R and center) but not sure if the upgrade to 3310 is worth it given the other features of networking, a better amp/processor etc.

2310 - $795
3310 - $1495


Mike

Mike, I would suggest to you that your ears would probably give up before the Denon does, but if you're looking for a Denon AVR with pre-outs, you might ask around for last years 2809(has pre's and 115 wts per ch) at a reduced cost. Should be priced around $800ish.

Another great advice, I had my TV set up to power on external HDMI devices. Now it works the way I wanted. Thanks.



I have the 890 which is the same thing and I had it at max for about 5 min and then had to turn it down. It was just way too loud for my 20x11 room.

I have played my denon 3808 as loud as I care to ever have it.... no problems with the m80's and denon here.

I just picked up the 3310ci from soundsaround.com for $998 CDN.

In Markham, I got Kennedy HiFi to give me a price of $1295 + tax cash price for the 3310ci

Yes, that is exactly what it does. When you power down everything, all your "activities" are listed, such as watch TV, listen to CD, etc. When you activate one of these, it turns on the components you programmed it to turn on. You can then press the "activity" button on the remote to go to another activity, say, watch a Blu-ray. The remote will turn on the BD player, turn off the cable box (if you use one for TV) and will switch the input in the receiver (or TV) as well. You can even program what order you want things powered on or off. They really are very cool. I have an older 520 I have had for years, and I just purchased an 880 about four months back on a good deal. Both are great.

EDIT: As far as how loud the Denon will play... Well, I just listened to a two hour concert DVD at just below what I would consider a reference level for me (wife is home, hehe) which equates to about -12 on the level... And the receiver is luke warm at best.

Yes it can.
I have my bluray player, DVD player, Sattilite box and Apple TV set up like this. When you program the remote you tell it which components you want turned on for each item ( watching TV, Listening to music, watching a bluray, etc). So if your watching TV and decide you want to listen to some tunes you just push the button you have programmed for listening to music and the remote will turn off the equipment not required and turn on those that are.
Mel
For the Harmony one at least

The remote does keep track of on/off for all devices assuming you use the remote to change the state of the device. I know I'm stating the obvious since it's one way communication. The nice part is, when you program an activity, if one of the devices didn't get the signal right you simply press the activity again and it will send the startup routine again. eg:just power on, not cycle.

If you switch activities, say watch DVD and you were already watching TV, it will keep all the equipment you need on still and only turn off the items you wish. IIRC, this is a configurable option in the software.

The other great feature that may be of use to you is a help key. Yep, a help key. How is of use to you? I'll assume other people such as a babysitter, wife, girlfriend (all three ) will use the remote. If at anytime something doesn't go right in the sequence because they weren't pointing it right or some other interference, they can press the help key and it will walk them through simple questions pertaining to that activity to try and correct the problem. Is the TV on, is the DVD on, Is the TV on HDMI 1 input etc......

It's probably obvious, but I'm a fan.

That's it! I have to get myself one of those! I know that a lot of people recommend the One but it's a bit pricey. How do the other ones perform, like 620, 700, 880 or 890 (even though I don't need the RF for now)? Is the One worth the extra $$$ ?

I'm thinking about getting the 1100. It's currently priced at about $320. Anyone have experience with this one?

Also with the Harmonies if something doesn't work for example, or something doesn't turn on, you can press the "help" button which you can then select what to turn back on... Or you can press the "devices" button which individualizes each component, and you can power on, or access a specific menu or something that way as well. Any other features of any of your remotes for any component that you also wish to use for a specific activity, you can also program into the Harmony so they are on any button on the entire remote, or they can be "screen buttoned" also if you do not have a practical place on the remote to program it in. So, for example, you can have the "menu" button for three components at once on the remote.

Keep in mind all the Harmonies (as far as I know) are programmed pretty much the same, they all use the same software, so if you want to get your feet wet you can buy a cheaper 510/520 on Ebay for $40 or so to see if you get along with them. The only thing I don't like about my 520 is it does not have a page down/page up button, but you can add them onto the "screen buttons" which I have done. The 880 is a mid level one with a color screen but it's not too expensive either. I think most of the newer ones use a cell phone battery as well, so you only have to charge them about once a week.

I visited them yesterday and spoke with some chap named Marcus (I think). So for clarification .. you paid $1295 all-in cash?

I've seen the 880 at Costco for ~$150, the 890 as low as $199 but currently $229 at FShop. The RF adapter is ~$170 if you buy separately, but it comes with the 890.

If IIRC the One has a touch screen for 3 activities/functions while the 880/890 has 8 activities/functions using hard buttons next to the screen. I had to buy a new battery for it after 3 years of use. I got one for 15.00 online from a reputable site.

Also consider that the 890 has IR and RF, so even if you don't need RF now, if you ever set up another room or Zone (outside?) you could do this later and if you ever want to put you equipment in a closet or behind something solid, you will have this capability. This is the feature that my wife likes the most. All the equipment is in the basement for the TV on the main floor.

One last point AVR 890 ------- Harmony 890

You see something the same

The One has more than 3 activities(it is based on the 880/890 less RF and they just removed the hard buttons) and the touch screen is a really cool feature. The One fits into the recharging cradle better than the 880/890 series does so it won't get knocked out and not recharge. So far as RF vs. IR you can run IR repeaters so it is somewhat of a non-issue. I agonized over the RF vs. IR after I bought the One but soon realized IR repeaters positioned correctly work just as well, as the Harmony remotes have a very wide and strong IR dispersion pattern. As I mentioned earlier, I would look at the 700 if you want to stay in the more reasonable price realm, it has a recharging(USB cable) so you don't have to swap batteries, just plug the remote in every once so often. I also like the button feel of this newer style of remote, they have a more OEM remote feel to them, more solid.

Thanks all for the input on the remotes. It looks like I can't go wrong no matter which one I pick so when I'll see a good deal, I'll get one.



The M80s can handle 400W. I know that if you power them with a more powerful amplifier, they will sound clearer, with less distortion a higher volume. Will they actually play louder as well or is this determined by the level of the pre-processor. In other terms, is it correct to say that the volume level of the M80s driven by my AVR-890 will be the same as driven by an external more powerful amplifier but more distorted at higher volume?

FYI, the Harmony One can usually be had for about $220. That's about the best price I've seen for them. Here's a link to one sale for them.

Bruno, there's no audible difference(including distortion)when an amplifier with a higher maximum output capacity is used unless that higher max is actually used; unused headroom is simply that: unused.

For a comfortably loud average level in the mid 80s of dB level, only about 1 watt is needed. A 1000 watt amplifier won't be different from a 10 watt amplifier there. Brief split-second peaks will use much more, of course, but not likely anything that typical receivers(such as your 890)rated anywhere in the 100 watt area can't handle with audible transparency. You, not the amplifier, are in control of the loudness level.

So why do people use external more powerful amplifiers? What are they gaining?

Sent you a PM.

This is another area of audio where advertising hype sometimes overcomes the reality of basic principles of audio technology. Again, typical receivers have ample capacity for the needs of home audio and paying for still more capacity, which'll be unused, isn't cost-effective.

bdpf,

Didn't mean to suggest it only had 3 activities total. I was only pointing out some diff's and a current opportunity to get RF on the cheap with a quality product. You could write pages and pages on this topic, so my attempt at brevity may have been misleading.

If you can get the One for $220, that's the way to go. I was suggesting a savings alternative with other features that may come in handy later on. I believe the repeaters would work well in a same room scenario, but you may have to run wires for additional zones. Jakewash could probably comment more on that if it's an issue for you.

EOTD, can't go wrong with Harmony's.

I have only just begun to test out the power of the One, picked it up on Boxing Day for $199, so I wouldn't put me down as an expert ........yet

Amazon.com is going to have a deal on some sort of Harmony remote at 6am PST today. I will be asleep, but maybe someone should look into it.

...it's the Harmony 890 for $170 (when bought through the Gold Box offer): http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CS1TLE

That is a pretty good deal

...and now it's gone.

The Gold Box deals are only good for a few hours.

Regardless of the RF feature, which one would be a better buy, the One or the 890?

If you don't need the RF then I don't think you can beat the deal that Dan (cb919) linked.

The RF for the same price is what makes the 890 a good deal, but the One is new, not refurb, and has the touch screen which is a cool feature.

I really like my One over the design of the 880/890, I feel it is worth the money for the (subjectively) better recharge cradle, looks, button feel and touch screen.

Yes, it seems to be the case. All my recent movies, including blu ray are very hard to understand. However some older movies seem to be better. I was just watching "Dark City" and the dialog was clear. This is pretty bad, it got to the point where my wife would rather watch movies thru the TV speakers. In order to understand the dialog properly, I have to bump up the volume to like -10dBs but then of course, when the action comes up it's too loud. I guess I will have to get the VP150 as soon as I can...

For the remote, I was just looking at the URC-R50. It can be found for around $80. Any one has experience with this remote? The reviews seem pretty good. However it looks like it can not remember the power state of each device like the Harmony. For those of you with URC remotes, is there a way to get around that? For example, if you are listening to music and want to watch a movie, how does it know that the DVD and receiver are already ON in that case and only needs to turn ON the TV?

I am not too sure but I believe that falls into the programming of the macros on the remote. I think it actually knows which are turned on you just have to have it check which ones were already on.

Most modern HT equipement have 'discreet' on off codes, meaning that there is s separate code for "on" and another code for "off". For instance, if your receiver is already on, sending another [on] code will not shut the device down.

However, there is some gear (probably older but maybe even some new) that do not have discreet codes for on and off. This presents real aggravation but here is a trick you can check for.

Some devices will ignore a 2nd [on/off] code if it's sent immediately right after another AND the device is already on. Confusing but you can make this work for you.

For instance, my old Toshiba TV does not have discreet codes but if it is already turned on, it will ignore the second press of the [on/off] button if it happens too quickly. This is to protect the TV from powering back up instantly if it still hasn't really depleted the charge from trying to turn off. This can be used to simulate discrete codes.

In the above scenario, macros including these commands will always produce the desired end state.

ON Macro = [on/off], [on/off], pause 2 sec., [on/off]

If TV is already on....
(TV turns off) (ignores 2nd so stays off) (accepts 3rd after delay so TV=on)

If TV is already off...
(TV turns on) (TV turns off) (TV turns on again)



Off Macro = [on/off], [on/off]

If TV is already on...
(tv turns off) (ignores 2nd so stays off)

If TV is already off...
(TV turns on) (TV turns off)


If you do not have discreet codes and there is no trick like the above, than another option is to have a macro that turns everything on only and another that turns everything off only. Then just do not use on/off codes in any other macros.

The Harmony's and some URCs do keep track of a devices 'state' but they can get mixed up sometimes too. Harmonies include a help feature that you go through to help them get back on track.

That's a great trick. Where were you 2 years ago when I need that flash of brilliance? This will fix the issue I have with the kids TV.

Thanks Murph!

Anytime Sloped.
Hopefully your kids TV has that particular protection functionality built in so it will work.

Well, I finally got a remote. Since at the moment I couldn't afford over $200 for the One, I settled for a 720 for $80 on Craigslist. I have to say that so far, I like it. The programming of the remote in order to get everything up and running was pretty quick, however it took me a while in order to get each menu setup in the order that I wanted. The only thing that I don't like about the remote is the fact that we can't enter discrete hex codes manually. This is a drawback since a lot of them are widely available on the internet. I read that if you buy the remote brand new, you have free technical support for a year and they will add for you any code available. The problem is that I bought it used and the support has expired for my device. So my question is if logitech is able to add it, it's possible so why don't they enable this feature on their remote? Even better, since they already have a huge database of the extra discrete codes, why don't they include them in their software instead of installing them one by one on a customer basis? That beats me. Some would be very pratical like switching the TV from internal speakers to amplifier. I tryed to create a sequence, but the 720 only allows me 5 instructions and I need 9 to do this. So I splitted it between 2 buttons. It works but it takes forever for the instructions to get executed one by one and everything gets displayed on the screen which is annoying. I know that a discrete code exists for that and my support wouldn't have expired, logitech would have added it for me. Well, that's what I get for buying used stuff
The other thing that I didn't like is that I couldn't find a way to start an activity with one of the devices being OFF at the beginning of the activity. I wanted "Watch TV" to start with the receiver OFF and then I would enable it with a soft key. I couldn't do that because the RCV would be ON on startup. So I had to create 2 activities, one with the RCV and one without.
So overall, I am very please that I don't have no more to be looking for all these remotes, the 720 looks good and it's very easy to use and fairly simple to program. However, a lot of thing could be very easily added in order to increase the functionality of the harmony remotes (at least the 720).

Regarding the question that I asked about the dialog not being clear, it is, like some of you mentioned, dependant on how the movie was mixed. Some are better that others. I will still try to get the VP-150 as soon as I can to help in this matter.

Also, Can someone explain the difference between DRC (Dynamic Range Compression) and Audyssey Dynamic Volume? They seem to both have the similar purpose to attenuate the loud sequences and emphasize the quite ones but the results are a bit different. It seems to me that DRC produces a better result than D.VOL. Any comments?

Hey BDPF

This is what I've gathered from reading... I won't own a Denon Reciever for a few more weeks so if I'm wrong, somebody correct me.


Dynamic Range control smooths out the difference between loud and quiet parts of a program. Say for example, there is a quiet scene with people sneaking around whispering, at 60 decibels... then something EXPLODES, DRAMATIC MUSIC and GUNSHOTS everywhere 100 Decibels! DRC would make the quiet stuff louder and the loud stuff quiter... say 70db signal on the quiet scene and 90 on the loud.

End result, at a low volume you can still hear the dialog in a movie, or at a higher volume, the Explosions don't take the pictures off your walls.

Audyssey Dynamic Volume controls volume between programs... so you're watching a TV show with a 98db signal and a commercial comes on with a 110db signal. Audyssey DV will bump the Program signal up to 100db and when the commercial comes on, the signal will be turned down to 100db.

End result, seamless volume while watching TV.


snazzed

^Correct

ADV is convenient, but leave DC off unless you have kids trying to sleep or something.

It looks like ADV does more than controlling the volume between programs. If I am watching a DVD, it is the same program all the way and it also acts similar to DRC in quieting down the louder scenes. That is why you can select (at least on the Denon) the options of Day, Night and Evening to control how much the volume will be regulated. It is very similar to DRC Low, Medium and High. So they seem to have a similar purpose but with a different result.
I agree that ADV works pretty well to even out the volume in TV programming though...