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500 question / problem
#287543 01/19/10 05:39 PM
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I have a recurring problem with my 500. For whatever reason, and sporadically, it will not play. I assume it is in sleep mode and not waking up. I have been corresponding back and forth with JC. First solution was to switch from the input jack to the output jack. That caused some improvement but, inexplicably the problem returns. Next suggestion was to boost the volume by 3db. Again, some improvement but the problem persists. Last suggestion was to boost another 3db. I did that but the bass output is way overblown at that point.

I have a couple of questions for the group.

First, if the unit is in sleepmode, is the LED on the back still green? I check every time I detect that the sub is not playing and the light is green. If I turn it off and back on, the sub plays as it should.

Second, I set the volume to 75db to match the other speakers. I then bumped it to 78db to account for the instructions from JC. Being that I am fairly new to the hobby and at the risk of sounding dumb, am I doing what JC is suggesting? I have a Yamaha 663 and there are apparently several ways to increase the volume. There is a quick mode where I can, with the press of a button access the speakers and increase the level. THere is the calibration menu with the pink noise - I assume that I am doing the same thing there as I am with the quick button.

This is proving to be somewhat frustrating - it could be my ignorance in following instructions or it could be something else. I am open to any suggestions you guys may have.....Rob


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287552 01/19/10 05:53 PM
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Rob, I don't think you are doing anything wrong. Like you say, whether you are bumping up the dB levels during the pink noise test, or after the fact and adjusting that specific channel, you are doing the same thing.

I think some of the older EP500's had a "wake up" circuit, not sure the newer models have this...I know my 350's have a switch for "always on" or "wake up" modes.

How long have you had your 500? The point is that you should "not" have to keep bumping up the levels to make sure the sub stays on. 75dB's calibration is plenty to accomplish this.

When you say it will not play, are you saying when you start playing music or movies it drops out all of a sudden, or say after the next day of it working it is not working the next time you turn on the system?

If powering the sub off/on fixes the problem in the short term, it sounds like to me there is a problem with the amp.


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Re: 500 question / problem
SirQuack #287566 01/19/10 06:48 PM
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My question would be the same. How old is the 500? My is always on there is no sleep mode. Mine is 2 years old.

Re: 500 question / problem
onn #287592 01/19/10 07:40 PM
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Just out of curiosity, what do you have the crossover set at on your AVR and/or sub? It will not matter how much the volume is turned up on the sub since nothing will activate or start to be heard until bass response from whatever you are listening to is at or below the crossover setting.

Re: 500 question / problem
casey01 #287609 01/19/10 08:30 PM
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Good point Casey! Obviously the crossover knob on the sub should on "bypass" (older versions), or cranked to the highest setting.


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Re: 500 question / problem
SirQuack #287615 01/19/10 08:59 PM
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I received the Epic 60-500 system in May of 2009. As far as playing - I never notice it dropping out all of a sudden. It is more that I am watching TV - either cable or Blu Ray and I will see something that should have had some LFE. I then go to the sub and check and it is not playing. I turn it off and back on and...voila - we now have bass. I initially set the crossover knob on the sub to the highest setting - I will double check that one of the kids has not messed with it. Thanks for that suggestion. I am reasonably sure that it is still at the highest setting. The crossover on the Yamaha is set at 80. I intitially thought that the 25' Monoprice cable (purchased with the idea of doing the crawl) was the problem. I replaced it with a 6' cable and still have the problem.

As for the always on - I don't think that I have that option but I will check when I get home.

When I pumped up the output +6 or +8 db on the volume - the bass was so heavy as to be unlistenable.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287617 01/19/10 09:01 PM
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Once you pump up the receiver setting you have drop the volume setting on the sub itself to keep things equal.


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Re: 500 question / problem
jakewash #287620 01/19/10 09:08 PM
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Actually, I had thought of that - but in keeping with my ignorance....I wasn't sure if I was cancelling out the effect that JC was trying to achieve? I am still not sure on that point - some of you are far more knowledgeable than me so I would defer to your experiences.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287628 01/19/10 09:21 PM
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When you have the sub set at 75 db, what is the actual LFE channel in the receiver set at? I know with my SVS they stated to try not to have it below 1/4 of the range (mine for example goes from -12 to +12, so don't have it below -6) because sometimes this will not allow the sub to be triggered out of sleep mode. They say it is better to turn the sub itself down a touch and move the LFE level in the receiver to a more neutral position.

Worth a shot if you are in the lower end of the range.

Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287631 01/19/10 09:25 PM
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The sub turns on when it gets an input signal. If the input signal is too weak to detect properly the sub won't turn on. So you can boost the input by turning up the sub level on the receiver. Though, as pointed out above, you'll need to turn down the volume on the sub to keep the over-all output level the same as before.

One thing I've noticed with my Sony sub: the turn-on level is higher than the minimum output level--it's possible for the sub to play a signal, once it is on, that wasn't loud enough to turn it on in the first place. That is, I can play some part of a passage without triggering the sub. But something louder comes along, and the sub now does power up. If I go back and play that previous part I will hear some output from the sub.

I probably should set my receiver somewhere between +1.5 and +3, but I fear if I'm ever listening higher than -10 dB that I might start clipping the output driver for the sub. (That fear is pretty unfounded though, as I don't listen any louder than -12 dB at the craziest of times, and if I was that hot, and there was LFE content which was mixed at -0 dB, I'd be diving for the remote, to cut things back).


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Re: 500 question / problem
Potatohead #287638 01/19/10 09:36 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Potatohead
When you have the sub set at 75 db, what is the actual LFE channel in the receiver set at? I know with my SVS they stated to try not to have it below 1/4 of the range (mine for example goes from -12 to +12, so don't have it below -6) because sometimes this will not allow the sub to be triggered out of sleep mode. They say it is better to turn the sub itself down a touch and move the LFE level in the receiver to a more neutral position.

Worth a shot if you are in the lower end of the range.


I think it was set at -2. Would it be worth starting over with a new soundmeter calibration?


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287639 01/19/10 09:37 PM
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Set your receiver to +3, and then calibrate again with the meter only adjusting the volume knob on the sub to get it to 75 dB.


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Re: 500 question / problem
ClubNeon #287641 01/19/10 09:40 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
The sub turns on when it gets an input signal. If the input signal is too weak to detect properly the sub won't turn on. So you can boost the input by turning up the sub level on the receiver. Though, as pointed out above, you'll need to turn down the volume on the sub to keep the over-all output level the same as before.

One thing I've noticed with my Sony sub: the turn-on level is higher than the minimum output level--it's possible for the sub to play a signal, once it is on, that wasn't loud enough to turn it on in the first place. That is, I can play some part of a passage without triggering the sub. But something louder comes along, and the sub now does power up. If I go back and play that previous part I will hear some output from the sub.

I probably should set my receiver somewhere between +1.5 and +3, but I fear if I'm ever listening higher than -10 dB that I might start clipping the output driver for the sub. (That fear is pretty unfounded though, as I don't listen any louder than -12 dB at the craziest of times, and if I was that hot, and there was LFE content which was mixed at -0 dB, I'd be diving for the remote, to cut things back).


When it is off - it is really off. I don't think that it is a weak signal and then kicking on when a stronger signal is sent. When it is off, I can watch - for example - one of the Bass Heavy scenes from Transformers and get no LFE output from the sub.


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Re: 500 question / problem
ClubNeon #287645 01/19/10 09:43 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
Set your receiver to +3, and then calibrate again with the meter only adjusting the volume knob on the sub to get it to 75 dB.


OK, thanks....I will try that tonight. The way it has been going, it may be weeks that it works fine and then one day - no output. So...I may be back in several weeks. This is why it is getting frustrating. My wife quipped yesterday "As much money as that 'thing' costs, it should work perfectly everytime"....


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287646 01/19/10 09:43 PM
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That does sound like there's an actual problem with the sub's amp. Probably want to report that information specifically to Axiom. That no matter how loud the LFE plays the sub won't turn back on, unless it is completely power cycled.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287648 01/19/10 09:45 PM
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Definately a weird one, but we'll get it figured out.

If you physically turn the sub on, with no info being sent to it, (say TV off) and then turn on one of these heavy bass scenes, does it work properly? If so, it's clearly an issue with it being triggered out of sleep mode which could be be either the sub (likely), the receiver (doubtful), or just a receiver setting.

Re: 500 question / problem
Potatohead #287650 01/19/10 09:47 PM
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Certainly sounding more like an actual sub amp problem than anything else. I would expect Axiom to be sending out an Amp shortly.


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Re: 500 question / problem
ClubNeon #287653 01/19/10 10:13 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
That does sound like there's an actual problem with the sub's amp. Probably want to report that information specifically to Axiom. That no matter how loud the LFE plays the sub won't turn back on, unless it is completely power cycled.

Thanks, Chris. I have not specifically indicated that fact but will reply to JC's latest e-mail with that info tonight...Rob


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Re: 500 question / problem
Potatohead #287654 01/19/10 10:17 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Potatohead
Definately a weird one, but we'll get it figured out.

If you physically turn the sub on, with no info being sent to it, (say TV off) and then turn on one of these heavy bass scenes, does it work properly? If so, it's clearly an issue with it being triggered out of sleep mode which could be be either the sub (likely), the receiver (doubtful), or just a receiver setting.


I have not tried it in exactly that manner. I will be checking after making one of these changes - pretty much everytime I have the system on. It will work as it should for weeks and I quit checking. Then I will be watching a DVD and notice that the bass is not there......


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287690 01/20/10 02:06 AM
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I went in to the Yamaha menu and set the sub to +3. I then set all other speakers at 0 and re-calibrated the entire set. The sub is the last speaker in the menu and when I got to it, it did not put out any sound at all. SO....I went and turned it off and back on and then it output. It was way over 80db so I dialed it back using the knob on back of the sub. I left it at 78db. Then I turned the whole set up off and then back on to listen to a cd. Plenty of bass. I turned it back off and back on and put in BOB - the Jump scene. Plenty of bass. We will see how long it lasts. Thanks for all the suggestions and welcome any others from the West Coast/Night Owl crowd..........Rob


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287694 01/20/10 02:29 AM
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Rob, I'm no expert here, but if the test tone for your receiver did not trigger the sub to 'wake up' then I would say you definitely have a wonky amp. And I agree with your wife that it should 'just work'. I am sure Axiom will make it right and will keep both you and your wife happy with your sub choice.

Good luck!


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #287695 01/20/10 02:30 AM
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Rob, no different suggestions, just to confirm that the increase that was spoken of is an increase in the sub trim level(which increases the voltage output)on the receiver(e.g., the +3 that you've now set), not an increase in the sub volume level control. In fact, as you now see, the volume control should be turned down when the sub voltage output on the receiver is increased, so that there's no overall change in the calibrated sub level.


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Re: 500 question / problem
JohnK #287712 01/20/10 03:20 AM
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 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Rob, no different suggestions, just to confirm that the increase that was spoken of is an increase in the sub trim level(which increases the voltage output)on the receiver(e.g., the +3 that you've now set), not an increase in the sub volume level control. In fact, as you now see, the volume control should be turned down when the sub voltage output on the receiver is increased, so that there's no overall change in the calibrated sub level.

I watched Alan's video on how to set up the 500 before doing anything. I started with the knob in the 10:00 position. It is waaay down now but still putting out 78 db. I am going to stay the course - a little wiser - and if it wonks out again, I'll be back with JC....


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Re: 500 question / problem
cb919 #287714 01/20/10 03:21 AM
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 Originally Posted By: cb919
Rob, I'm no expert here, but if the test tone for your receiver did not trigger the sub to 'wake up' then I would say you definitely have a wonky amp. And I agree with your wife that it should 'just work'. I am sure Axiom will make it right and will keep both you and your wife happy with your sub choice.

Good luck!


Thanks for the good wishes.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288064 01/22/10 03:01 AM
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I got home tonight and checked the bass with POTC2. 500 was playing as it should. After dinner, I worked on the computer while listening to a couple of cd's - Cello where I would not expect any great rumble out of the 500. After a couple of hours, I put in Planet Earth in Blu Ray and immediately noticed no bass. I thought about waiting till the episode was over and putting in Transformers to see if it would wake up the 500. My wife was watching or I would have done it immedieately. Instead a thunderstorm scene played - so I backed up the pic to the first of the scene and paused it. I turned the 500 off and back on and the 500 played like a champ.

I have already emailed JC spelling out the story and telling him that I am no longer "getting frustrated" - I am officially frustrated. Looking forward to his response tomorrow......Rob


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288069 01/22/10 03:36 AM
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I just recreated the drop out by playing the same cd (JohnK's EMI Bach Cello Suites) and then popping in the Planet Earth Blu Ray. NO bass again. Instead of turning the sub off and back on, ejected and put in Transformers 2 Blu Ray. The 500 now played as it should? I guess tomorrow I will try boosting 6db and dialing back the trim. I did send an update to JC.....still frustrating. For the record my receiver is a Yamaha RX-V663 and the Blu Ray is the Oppo.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288082 01/22/10 05:08 AM
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Rob, just to make sure that we're still all on the same page, the "trim" on the receiver should be dialed up, not "back" and the sub volume control proportionately reduced.


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Re: 500 question / problem
JohnK #288117 01/22/10 12:27 PM
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 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Rob, just to make sure that we're still all on the same page, the "trim" on the receiver should be dialed up, not "back" and the sub volume control proportionately reduced.


You are correct. I get a bit tangled up. JC has been good at responding next day to my after hours posts and I asked him for the next game plan. If he has not responded, I plan to boost the Sub to +6 and turn the "volume?" down on the sub to achieve the 77-78 db output at reference (0?) level. I hope there is enough play left to reduce the sub output with the volume knob.

I would think if my receiver was the problem then turning the sub off and back on would not fix the issue every time - is that a flawed assumption?


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288122 01/22/10 01:59 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Argon

I would think if my receiver was the problem then turning the sub off and back on would not fix the issue every time - is that a flawed assumption?

Yes.

The sub automatically turns itself on when it senses an input signal. Often times, it won't do so with a weak or "soft" signal, so the idea is to boost the output of the receiver. This makes the receiver output a "stronger" signal to wake up the sub better. Of course, you then need to turn down the "volume" on the back of the sub so the total output is not louder. i.e., if you boost the receiver's output by 6 dB, you'll want to lower the subs "volume" knob by 6 dB.

When you turn your sub off and then on again, it automatically "wakes the sub up" so, in effect, it's not relying upon that signal from the receiver at that point.


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288126 01/22/10 02:43 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Argon
I went in to the Yamaha menu and set the sub to +3. I then set all other speakers at 0 and re-calibrated the entire set. The sub is the last speaker in the menu and when I got to it, it did not put out any sound at all.


Rob, it is this post that has me believing you have a problem with the amp on your sub. If the calibration test tones are not strong enough to wake the sub, it seems to me the problem cannot be with the receiver because this is not 'just' some LFE in a movie - it's a reference level pink noise tone - the sub should wake on that. Please correct me if I misinterpreted this post. I would also make sure JC is aware of this particular scenario.

Is there a flaw in my thinking on this?


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Re: 500 question / problem
cb919 #288151 01/22/10 05:26 PM
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I agree with cb above, in that the test tones should wake the sub. My receiver will output 10 pulses, and the sub is awake and firing fast enough to transmit seven of them. If the sub is physically turned on and the test tones are heard without an issue, there is no reason to believe this issue of not waking up is any fault of the receiver.

A work around obviously is to physically turn on and off the sub each time you watch TV, but obviously this is not ideal, especially on a new, expensive sub. Of course if there is any point in watching TV where there is no LFE for a while the sub may go to sleep anyway, and then you're back to square one.

Re: 500 question / problem
cb919 #288152 01/22/10 05:26 PM
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 Originally Posted By: cb919
 Originally Posted By: Argon
I went in to the Yamaha menu and set the sub to +3. I then set all other speakers at 0 and re-calibrated the entire set. The sub is the last speaker in the menu and when I got to it, it did not put out any sound at all.


Rob, it is this post that has me believing you have a problem with the amp on your sub. If the calibration test tones are not strong enough to wake the sub, it seems to me the problem cannot be with the receiver because this is not 'just' some LFE in a movie - it's a reference level pink noise tone - the sub should wake on that. Please correct me if I misinterpreted this post. I would also make sure JC is aware of this particular scenario.

Is there a flaw in my thinking on this?


Dan,
You have stated it correctly. I actually sent 2 emails to JC last night and one at the crack of dawn this morning - as I thought of facts that I had left out. The e-mail I sent this morning is the one where I indicated that the test tone failed to wake the sub.

I was sitting in a meeting a few moments ago when I got a call on my Blackberry that I did not recognize the number. A lot of times I will let those type calls go to Vmail - but the meeting was boring so I jumped up and grabbed the call. Glad I did - it was JC. Based on the facts, he agrees with your assessment and to your point in an earlier post, they are sending a new amp to replace mine. Again, the customer service reputation played a big factor in choosing Axiom - now I can attest first hand to the quality of that service........Rob


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Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #288154 01/22/10 05:28 PM
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That is great to hear, so let's hope this solves it once and for all!

Re: 500 question / problem
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 Originally Posted By: Potatohead
I agree with cb above, in that the test tones should wake the sub. My receiver will output 10 pulses, and the sub is awake and firing fast enough to transmit seven of them. If the sub is physically turned on and the test tones are heard without an issue, there is no reason to believe this issue of not waking up is any fault of the receiver.

A work around obviously is to physically turn on and off the sub each time you watch TV, but obviously this is not ideal, especially on a new, expensive sub. Of course if there is any point in watching TV where there is no LFE for a while the sub may go to sleep anyway, and then you're back to square one.


Back to square one is where it went last night. It was the first time that I was paying enough attention to isolate the drop out - either when I played the CD or that the Planet Earth signal was not strong enough. It was also the first time I was able to duplicate the drop out.

Another subtlety here is that I have all speakers set to small and crossing at 80 so when the sub drops out, I am missing bass as well as LFE.

Hopefully, the new amp will clear all this up.


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #289984 02/02/10 01:07 PM
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Tracking number says my package should arrive tomorrow via Fed-EX. We still have a good deal of snow (for down here) on the ground and I live down a dirt road with a ski slope driveway and neither gets scraped. Last snow we had before Christmas, I get a call on my cell that I didn't recognize. When I answered, the woman said she was my Fed-Ex driver. I said "I dint know I had one?" She laughed and then refused to come down and deliver due to the snow. She offered to meet me - but I was at least 45 mins away. I finally got her to leave it in the mail box at the end of the paved road.

I don't think the amp is going to fit in the mail box - so this should get interesting. An update on the current amp. I got Modern Warfare for Xbox for Christmas. I began playing the other day and realized the sub was again silent......


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #290562 02/05/10 02:15 PM
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Fed Ex finally delivered the amp - our dirt road is still covered in snow/ice and they refused to try to make the house. I had to call them, give them my number to give to the driver. He called and my wife went to the end of the pavement and picke it up. I installed it last night. I calibrated with the SPL meter and I put in Transformers 2. This time I set the receiver to +5 instead of +3 and adjusted with the volume knob on back. So far so good. I turned it off so the amp went to sleep and I tested with Modern Warfare Xbox. That game was not waking up the old amp consistently. After about 15 minutes I turned on the Xbox and the sub woke up right off. There are changes - no trim knob - no dedicated input / output jack. It has an adapter to the female XLR input that you plug the sub cable into. The adapter has a much snugger fit than the purple input / output jacks on the original. It also has a subsonic filter feature that the old one did not have.

Replacing is relatively easy but I had to take the woofer out to get the new wires connected. That made me a little nervous - only because I could see me getting butter fingers, slipping and puncturing the woofer - but all went well.


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #290571 02/05/10 02:44 PM
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Glad to hear it sounds like things are resolved Rob.

Now if your amp is working properly you should be able to recalibrate the sub with your receiver at or around the 0 mark on the LFE channel. That'll just give you more room to adjust if you need during movies/music. I think the +5 was more of a workaround/test to get your old amp to wake up, but the new one should not need this set as high.

Just my 2 cents, but glad it's working for you.


Dan
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Re: 500 question / problem
cb919 #290600 02/05/10 04:12 PM
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I thought about that - the new instrux that they sent say that auto setup programs should be avoided. Even at +5, there is way more adjustment still available than I would ever use. I could probably go to +10 and still have plenty of play.....Rob


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #290624 02/05/10 04:49 PM
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The problem isn't the adjustment range on the sub, but the voltage level on the output on the receiver. Too high a + (it varies from model to model), and you run the risk of clipping (that is, having the voltage hit the max and hold there) during large LFE events when the receiver is also turned up loud.

If '0' consistently turns on your sub, then it is the best setting.


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Re: 500 question / problem
ClubNeon #290626 02/05/10 04:52 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
The problem isn't the adjustment range on the sub, but the voltage level on the output on the receiver. Too high a + (it varies from model to model), and you run the risk of clipping (that is, having the voltage hit the max and hold there) during large LFE events when the receiver is also turned up loud.

If '0' consistently turns on your sub, then it is the best setting.


Alright....I will dial back to 0 and recal tonight when I get home - assuming we don't lose power from the impending ice storm. Thanks for the advice.


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #290761 02/06/10 02:16 AM
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Now we just need to get Steve's sub fixed. \:\)


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Re: 500 question / problem
SirQuack #290882 02/06/10 03:20 PM
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We have been PMing and comparing notes.

I dialed it back to 0 last night and rode out the Power blinks due to the ice and wind. Sub played flawlessly all night. Got up this morning and turned on Xbox - again flawless performance.....So, I guess "No Worries".....


"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill
Re: 500 question / problem
Argon #290893 02/06/10 04:06 PM
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Thats good news Argon. I am almost ready to give Axiom another try with my sub.

Steve

Re: 500 question / problem
rvrrat #290919 02/06/10 06:17 PM
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You know who to contact... \:\)


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Re: 500 question / problem
SirQuack #291413 02/09/10 04:49 PM
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GHOSTBUSTERS! Oh wait that was for a different problem......


Jason
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