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Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
ClubNeon #289171 01/29/10 02:56 PM
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@dakkon: I found a local NAD dealer, went by and listened to the T747. It sounded awesome. It seems most of the NAD folks are all about two channel stereo. HDMI is a requirment for me. My main focus is Home Theater. Without all the data (video and sound) going through one device you get lipsync issues. When I set my DVD output to 24p, the audio and video get so out of sync the movie is no longer watchable. Running everything through one piece of gear fixes all that.

As to separates, I'd prefer those, but the prices were out of what I wanted to spend. The T775 I was looking at sells for $3k, so the refurbed separates might be an option.

Thank to everyone for the great advice. I've about talked myself out of the Japanese AVRs and hope to step up to the next level.

Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
David_G #289177 01/29/10 04:03 PM
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What non-Japanese brands are you considering? From what I've seen, the boutique manufacturers were completely stumped by HDMI, and are finally, nearly bringing gear to market. Where as the Japanese makers are on their 5th generation equipment. The high-end makes are also having the same teething problems (hand-shake/compatibility issues) as the Japanese did in the beginning, and have long worked out.

I'm not convinced that at the high-end the price increases are for much more than rack jewelry. With all digital inputs, and digital processing, there's nothing which can affect audible changes in the signal.

There are only a handful of DAC makers in the world. Baring some new breakthrough in PCM to analog voltage transformation, current delta-sigma designs are as good as the tech can get (of course the same was thought about oversampling, and then single-bit decoders in the past). There's much more in common between the various chips out there, than there is different.

Then there's the pre-amp stage. Again, only a handful of parts makers get used for these components. Anything more than a $100 HTiB is going to have inaudible levels of distortion and noise in this part of the signal path.

Last comes the amplification. This is where you'll find most of the design differences. How much difference they make is the big question. For people who think amps make a difference, separates are the way to go. As I've said above, get a good, competently designed pre/pro at a reasonable price which includes the inputs and processing features you want. Then the world's open to you as to which amps to pair with it.

I'm just saying, you've made the wise choice to go with a no-nonsense speaker maker. Don't go back on yourself and start believing the hype the esoteric equipment makers put out there. Trust your ears, not your eyes, or your wallet. Of course a demo at a dealer is going to paint the equipment in the best possible light. I think you'll be surprised if you could actually conduct a controlled, double blind listening test with the pre/pro being the only variable. There's good non-boutique stuff out there. It may not be as pretty, or cost as much, but those factors don't change the way it sounds.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
ClubNeon #289223 01/29/10 08:45 PM
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I've got to agree with Chris that the high end gear is not keeping up with the more modestly priced Japanese models. When I was going through my decisions on separates, it became apparent I was going to need a scalar (DVDO vp50 at the time) but then separate sound processing. A good receiver can do all of this with less hassle, cables and no sacrifice of sound.


HG Cherry M60's,VP150,Qs8's,EP350
Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
David_G #289230 01/29/10 08:55 PM
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Hey David, take a look at he RX-Z7 as well. Great scaling for the video side of things and more than enough power to drive your setup. You can even drop down models (3900) and then pick up a great blu-ray player within your original budget.

I've got the older 3800 which I used to drive 4ohm Jamo's before I bought the M60's. When I spoke with Axiom because I was considering the M80's, they said the 3800/3900/RX-Z7 would be fine.

I've only mentioned Yamaha models here since this is my experience. I know that Denon/Onkyo/Pioneer make some great stuff as well that others can chime in on.


HG Cherry M60's,VP150,Qs8's,EP350
Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
Sloped #289252 01/29/10 10:14 PM
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I used to really like NAD. Back in the good old analogue days when things were much simpler. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is one of my favorite sayings. NAD did just that.

But sadly, HDMI put a new twist on things and as Chris stated so well, it stumped the high dollar boutique manufactures. Anthem came the closest, but even they continue to struggle. Now that everyone is finally getting comfortable with the one wire solution and the 1.3 HDMI spec is the standard and appears to be “good enough”, 3D and HDMI are rounding the corner and I think they are coming quicker than any of expected. 1.4 will add a whole new twist.....

As far as I’m concerned, the days of high end Pre/Pro’s for a home theater are over. The companies are generally small, have limited resources to properly beta test and they’ll always be playing catch up with the big players like Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo (yes I left HK out on purpose because they make crap anymore). I believe the best course anymore it just buy an AVR with the features you want, use it a year or two, then dump it and buy the next one that comes out with the latest bells and whistles you might want. Put your money into speakers, room treatments and amplification. I only mention amplification because I believe that is where the AVR’s will really start to skimp on quality as the industry continues to stuff more channels into the boxes……

Now if you want to dump some money into a dedicated stereo rig and you’re not going to listen to HD disks, then that’s another topic entirely.

Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
michael_d #289613 02/01/10 01:03 AM
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i would agree with michael, to a point, i would say if your going to use the AVR's like he suggests, then invest in a good amp or 2, and use the latest AVR only as a processor, don't even use the amps that is included with the AVR, that is how i started, with a Marantz receiver, and amp. then changed to a NAD processor with the same Marantz amp. You could even get a couple of nice class A amps.. or maybe class AB..

lots of options, and lots of people with opinions :D.


definitely try to demo as much as you can, even different models and different price ranges from the same manufacture. You may discover, that no matter what you don't like what say sony has to offer, but the Yamaha's you do like. each manufacture will have a slightly different sound.

Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
dakkon #289819 02/01/10 08:52 PM
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Well. did some thinking and reading over the weekend. Back to looking at the Yamaha RX-Z11, RX-Z7 or Onkyo NRx007s. For what I do (surround sound movies) any of these should be fine. I need more HDMI inputs than most folks offer.

Re: Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR
David_G #289873 02/02/10 01:14 AM
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I believe H/K's new line of AVRs (1600, 2600 and 3600) are a vast improvement over what they have had to offer during the past three or four years. I have been using an H/K AVR 635 for the past five years and have been extremely happy with it and will be doing an upgrade to our room in the near future that will include an H/K 3600.

Harman Kardon


Rick
Our Room

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