Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Help choosing Pre/Pro+Amp or an AVR

My Setup: Two M60s for L/R front, VP150 for C, 4xQS8s for L/R Surround and L/R Rear (all version 1) and an SVS PC12-Plus (old model).

Room is 8064ft3 (24x24x14).

Currently have an Onkyo TX-NR801 which has served me well, but doesn't support HDMI or the new Blu-ray codecs. I was all set to pickup the Emotiva UPA-7 & UMC-1, but then started reading about issues so started doing more research. Budget is $2500, so unfortunately the A1400 is out. Primary use is HT with all channel stereo background music as a secondary use.

Looking for recommendations.

Thanks

First, welcome to the board.

That budget is a little tight to be going with a pre/pro plus 7 channels of amps. It can be done, for instance the Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P can be had for less than $1500, and Outlaw (who also sells that Onkyo) has a 7 x125 Watt (conservatively rated) amp for $1000.

But for that money, I'd be looking at the Onkyo TX-NR3007 for about $2000, or even the TX-NR5007 which would take you right up to the limit of your budget.

Was looking at the Yahama ZX11 @ $2499 or Onkyo 5007 currently on sale @ $1799.

Thanks for the welcome. I registered years ago but never had a need to post until now.

I should also add that my budget is flexible. I'm just looking to stay around $2500.

My next pre/pro will be another receiver. Pre/Pro's don't have the features that I want, yet. They typically lag behind AVR's with the latest tech since HDMI was rolled out. My next AVR will be the Denon 4810, which can be bought for 2000 - 2500 depending on where you look.

Another vote for Outlaw Audio and look at their B stock you can get a good amp and the Onkyo Chris mentioned from there.

In the $2500 price range, I would look into one of the NAD receivers T765, T775, or T785. In my mind NAD has a good reputation for quality products and this series of receivers are modular so they can be upgraded when new technologies come around. You might have to add in the cost of one upgrade immediately to support HDMI. My caveat is that the only NAD that I've listened to is a friend's older stereo NAD receiver but it has always sounded pretty good to me. When I was looking around, I went with a Denon 3808 because the NADs were out of my price range. Plus I did not find it convenient to go to a NAD dealer as it is to go to a BB/Magnolia (with Denon products) for a listening session.

-Dave

David, we've been anxiously waiting over three years for your first post, so welcome. As to the receivers, you can probably get the 3007 for about $500 less than the 5007. There's no appreciable difference in maximum power or other general performance aspects, so unless the 5007 has some added feature that you really want, the 3007 is a more cost-effective buy and that budget can be used on something more meaningful.

The NAD T7x5HD looks like a candidate at the high end of my budget. Onkyo pricing between the 3007 and the 5007 is about $400. The need for HDMI ports is what leads me to the 5007. I have 4 HDMI devices today and expect that will only grow with time.

you can get Nad refurbished from http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/nadspec.htm

they are great guys, when i lived in new england i bought from their boston store. You will need to call the Northampton store for refurbished inventory.. i would at least call and see what they have or what they can get for you, i think they are the only NAD certified company to sell refurbished items for NAD.. btw, i got my Krell from them for 1500, so you could see what else they have..

i would tell you to go with Nad, i have a Nad processor, and a Krell processor, and to be completely honest, i can only tell a slight difference in the Krell unit over the nad, with the same amps. Considering the Krell cost almost 4 times what the Nad did new...

i have a buddy who has a Nad receiver, and that sounds wonderful as well. i have owned onkyo as well, and the quality between Nad and Onkyo is uncomparable, in my opinion..

One question, why do you need the HDMI ports? my system is completely analog..
if you are ok with staying with analog, you can get much more power/performance for your money. this is a current listing off of spiritsounds used section.

NAD T175/T975 Package, AV Tuner Preamplifier with 7-Channel Power Amplifier (List $4,498) $2,948 Refurbished

i realize this is 450$ over what you want to spend, but i would say that this would be worth waiting another month for, due to the fact that this is a separates pre/pro. i don't know if you have ever herd a pre/pro set up next to a receiver. but that is also an uncomparable match as well in my opinion. I would rather go with less new technology (HDMI) but better DAC's and an amp you will never have to replace, just buy another processor when technology changes enough to matter to you.


anyhow you know where i stand... good luck with your choice.

But without HDMI the best DACs in the world in the pre/pro aren't going to do anything.

I can see the appeal of analog interconnects in a purpose-built, music playback setup. But for home theater you need HDMI. Finding sources with 5/7.1 outputs, for your TV channels, video games, video disc, etc. is impossible. Let alone the extra over-head of paying for high-end DACs in each piece of gear. If you use HDMI to connect all the digital sources to your pre/pro or receiver you only need pay for the digital to analog conversion in one place. Plus, the bass management, channel alignment, room correction, etc. are always better implemented in a dedicated processor than any source device.

@dakkon: I found a local NAD dealer, went by and listened to the T747. It sounded awesome. It seems most of the NAD folks are all about two channel stereo. HDMI is a requirment for me. My main focus is Home Theater. Without all the data (video and sound) going through one device you get lipsync issues. When I set my DVD output to 24p, the audio and video get so out of sync the movie is no longer watchable. Running everything through one piece of gear fixes all that.

As to separates, I'd prefer those, but the prices were out of what I wanted to spend. The T775 I was looking at sells for $3k, so the refurbed separates might be an option.

Thank to everyone for the great advice. I've about talked myself out of the Japanese AVRs and hope to step up to the next level.

What non-Japanese brands are you considering? From what I've seen, the boutique manufacturers were completely stumped by HDMI, and are finally, nearly bringing gear to market. Where as the Japanese makers are on their 5th generation equipment. The high-end makes are also having the same teething problems (hand-shake/compatibility issues) as the Japanese did in the beginning, and have long worked out.

I'm not convinced that at the high-end the price increases are for much more than rack jewelry. With all digital inputs, and digital processing, there's nothing which can affect audible changes in the signal.

There are only a handful of DAC makers in the world. Baring some new breakthrough in PCM to analog voltage transformation, current delta-sigma designs are as good as the tech can get (of course the same was thought about oversampling, and then single-bit decoders in the past). There's much more in common between the various chips out there, than there is different.

Then there's the pre-amp stage. Again, only a handful of parts makers get used for these components. Anything more than a $100 HTiB is going to have inaudible levels of distortion and noise in this part of the signal path.

Last comes the amplification. This is where you'll find most of the design differences. How much difference they make is the big question. For people who think amps make a difference, separates are the way to go. As I've said above, get a good, competently designed pre/pro at a reasonable price which includes the inputs and processing features you want. Then the world's open to you as to which amps to pair with it.

I'm just saying, you've made the wise choice to go with a no-nonsense speaker maker. Don't go back on yourself and start believing the hype the esoteric equipment makers put out there. Trust your ears, not your eyes, or your wallet. Of course a demo at a dealer is going to paint the equipment in the best possible light. I think you'll be surprised if you could actually conduct a controlled, double blind listening test with the pre/pro being the only variable. There's good non-boutique stuff out there. It may not be as pretty, or cost as much, but those factors don't change the way it sounds.

I've got to agree with Chris that the high end gear is not keeping up with the more modestly priced Japanese models. When I was going through my decisions on separates, it became apparent I was going to need a scalar (DVDO vp50 at the time) but then separate sound processing. A good receiver can do all of this with less hassle, cables and no sacrifice of sound.

Hey David, take a look at he RX-Z7 as well. Great scaling for the video side of things and more than enough power to drive your setup. You can even drop down models (3900) and then pick up a great blu-ray player within your original budget.

I've got the older 3800 which I used to drive 4ohm Jamo's before I bought the M60's. When I spoke with Axiom because I was considering the M80's, they said the 3800/3900/RX-Z7 would be fine.

I've only mentioned Yamaha models here since this is my experience. I know that Denon/Onkyo/Pioneer make some great stuff as well that others can chime in on.

I used to really like NAD. Back in the good old analogue days when things were much simpler. KISS (keep it simple stupid) is one of my favorite sayings. NAD did just that.

But sadly, HDMI put a new twist on things and as Chris stated so well, it stumped the high dollar boutique manufactures. Anthem came the closest, but even they continue to struggle. Now that everyone is finally getting comfortable with the one wire solution and the 1.3 HDMI spec is the standard and appears to be “good enough”, 3D and HDMI are rounding the corner and I think they are coming quicker than any of expected. 1.4 will add a whole new twist.....

As far as I’m concerned, the days of high end Pre/Pro’s for a home theater are over. The companies are generally small, have limited resources to properly beta test and they’ll always be playing catch up with the big players like Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo (yes I left HK out on purpose because they make crap anymore). I believe the best course anymore it just buy an AVR with the features you want, use it a year or two, then dump it and buy the next one that comes out with the latest bells and whistles you might want. Put your money into speakers, room treatments and amplification. I only mention amplification because I believe that is where the AVR’s will really start to skimp on quality as the industry continues to stuff more channels into the boxes……

Now if you want to dump some money into a dedicated stereo rig and you’re not going to listen to HD disks, then that’s another topic entirely.

i would agree with michael, to a point, i would say if your going to use the AVR's like he suggests, then invest in a good amp or 2, and use the latest AVR only as a processor, don't even use the amps that is included with the AVR, that is how i started, with a Marantz receiver, and amp. then changed to a NAD processor with the same Marantz amp. You could even get a couple of nice class A amps.. or maybe class AB..

lots of options, and lots of people with opinions :D.


definitely try to demo as much as you can, even different models and different price ranges from the same manufacture. You may discover, that no matter what you don't like what say sony has to offer, but the Yamaha's you do like. each manufacture will have a slightly different sound.

Well. did some thinking and reading over the weekend. Back to looking at the Yamaha RX-Z11, RX-Z7 or Onkyo NRx007s. For what I do (surround sound movies) any of these should be fine. I need more HDMI inputs than most folks offer.

I believe H/K's new line of AVRs (1600, 2600 and 3600) are a vast improvement over what they have had to offer during the past three or four years. I have been using an H/K AVR 635 for the past five years and have been extremely happy with it and will be doing an upgrade to our room in the near future that will include an H/K 3600.

Harman Kardon