Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo m22ti - anemic bass?

I set up my home theater with a Pioneer 912K and JBL's SCS150 surround speakers. While this works great for movies, e.g. opera DVDs require better speakers. I am thinking of getting a pair of good bookshelf speakers so I can listen to stereo sound via the 2nd speaker output of the pioneer receiver. The room is small - 13"x10". I can't have tower speakers... Having read a lot of reviews I am now leaning towards the Axiom M22ti. The anemic bass worries me a bit, though I don't know if opera really requires a strong bass?? How bad is the M22 bass really? Also, I have the JBL sub that could support the M22tis (would this setup work?).

you would probbly want to have a sub for music and definetly for movies, but just so you know, you might want to get a better sub because theres no guarantess that the JBL would keep up with the axioms and would probbly muddy the sound. At least thats my expereicen with axioms and cheap subs.

If towers are out of the question, than no speaker you can buy will have good deep bass response without adding a sub. My guess is that for opera you would only miss the frequencies below the M22's capabilities in the timpani, and perhaps organ, though I'm not sure there's much organ in the operatic literature. Certainly the M22's will accurately reproduce any frequency that a human voice is capable of generating, and almost anything an orchestra can produce.

Mark

Ditto what Mark (mhorgel) and Haoleb said so well.

In reply to:

---

How bad is the M22 bass really?

---

There is nothing bad at all about the bass produced by the M22s. In fact, within its specified frequency range(down close to 50Hz), the bass is quite accurate, robust, and articulate. From my perspective, the problem comes when the subwoofer doesn't match the fine low end qualities of the M22 and the bass suffers below the crossover point.

I find it amusing when ppl use the term "anemic" when describing bass from "book shelf" size speakers. You simply can't expect to get any of the bottom two octaves from book shelf speakers. They just aren't designed for low bass.

btw, I have an old JBL G-10 subwoofer that doesn't sound good with any speakers. The bass is "flabby", "one-noteish", and not tight at all. I now use an NHT sub for music and a HSU VTF-3 for home theater. These are both amazing subs. Will your JBL work with the M22s?...only you can say if they mate well together after you've listened to the combo. My guess would be no. Save up for a good Axiom or HSU or SVS sub if you're going to buy bookshelf speakers and if you want full frequency range. Btw, most towers won't give you the bottom octaves(20Hz-40Hz) either.

I don't know what main speakers you are using now but I think you'll be amazed at what the M22s can do within thier rated frequency range.

And yes some opera material does contain bottom octave bass.

ill give you the answer i think you are waiting for-plain and simple if you want good music to move to the m22s need a sub(which can be budgeted since the m22s are inexpensive). I guess you could compair the bass output of the m22s to a decent car audio system. Maybe a little less. Which isnt bad, but i think with a sub you should be fine. As long as its a good sub.

Hope that helps

Thanks for your responses. I will order the M22ti - and if necessary - I will buy a better sub....
Gerhard

Instead of starting a new topic I will jump into this one. I've always had floor standing speakers and this past week replaced them with some M22s. I'm in shock and I think the reason is - I am waiting on my sub to show up, and have only been listening to the 22s with no sub. I spend a majority of time listening to 2 channel stereo, and I have an IMPORTANT question. Room size is 12x24 but I have the couch and theater on the long walls placing me about 8 feet away from the equipment. Will the 22s and a good sub (HSU) give me equal satisfaction in 2 channel stereo listening compared to the M60Tis?
HELP!

In short, yes.

The M22s + good subwoofer will cover a wider range of sound than the M60s alone. Also, the ways in which the M60s are better than the M22s will most likely not be evident from only 8 feet away.

Peter is right. From only 8' away, the added benefits of the M60 over the M22 would not be readily noticable. (A larger soundstage being the biggest advantage) Where you'll be sitting, the M22's and Hsu are the better choice.

If you can get your listening postion 10'+ back, then I'd say the M60's would be better for 2 channel listening though.

Oaklawn and Gerhard:

I have been using M80s for about a year and a half now. I recently demoed a pair of M22s for about a couple of weeks.

The ONE thing I thought I would miss is the bass of the M80s, but I didn't. No, the M22s will not do pipeorgans well, but for most classical symphonic and operatic repertoire (recordings I used to test the bass: Bach Cello Suites by Fournier on Archiv, Dvorak American Suite by Dorati on Decca, Dvorak Symphony #9 transcribed for Organ on BIS, the recordings make the floor shake on the M80s) the bass is very sufficient -- it's nice and tight, although you hear it rather than feel it. For my rather small listening area though -- I sit about 8 fit from the speakers, and there's a wall directly behind the chair, and thus the reason for looking at smaller speakers -- a sub is not required. (my cheap Deftech sub actually made the sound worse when turned on ...)

The M22s did go back to Axiom though. They did solo instruments and small chamber ensembles well enough, but sounds strained for medium sized ensembles (HIP Bach Cantatas for example) to very strained on orchestral pieces (New World Symphony; Gerhard, I think most operas will fall in this category). This made returning them a very easy decision.

Hopes this helps (and yes I do realize I said the exact opposite of what everybody else said )

EL

I recently bought a pair of M22s. Minus the foolish Homeland Security bullshit delaying my speakers in Memphis for 5 days over a useless form and the fact that they came single-boxed (is this the norm, I thought they were always double-boxed) with a decent hole in the side of one of the boxes, I'm pretty happy.

The speakers sound very nice for the money. Don't let anyone mislead you though. You WILL need a good subwoofer if you want to enjoy the lower end of the audio spectrum (would you honestly expect otherwise from a quality bookshelf?). The M22s sound NICE but it became immediately obvious that a quality sub (Hsu, SVS etc) was going to be a welcome addition to the setup.

My current setup (for those interested):
M22s on 16" stands
Denon 3803 AV receiver
all in a 8'x12' room with carpet

additions within the next week:
SVS PCi 16-46 subwoofer
speaker, subwoofer and rc cable upgrades from Heartland Cables (sorry Axiom but until you allow for Bananas, I can't see myself giving you my business on the cable side of things even though the price is fairly competitive).

I'm not an expert like many on this board are, but, I listened to many of the brick and mortar speakers before I ordered the m22ti's. My general experience, while auditioning these speakers, was that there was always something missing in the sound. Either the bass was bloated and arificial sounding or non-existent or the mids were missing. And sometimes the tweeters were just too harsh. Most often the speaker looked cooler than they sounded. Once I received my m22ti's I was very disappointed in the size of the speaker. It looked so much bigger on the website. I reluctantly hooked them up to my Yammie thinking that a speaker this size must certainly be a disappointment sonically. Within seconds of listening to them my lower jaw dropped. Within a minute my initial thought was replaced by, how can a speaker that small make such wonderful sound. I don't know if I could have found a speaker I would have liked better, but I know I've listened to worse. I'm not concerned with the bass thing, because I use a subwoofer. The m22ti's do everything well except for the bass.

agreed. you need a sub with the m22s, but buying a sub is neccesary if you really want the HT expierence. eventually, you will get upgraditis and want to upgrade your equipment. a good sub will go with you whereever you go, no matter what 5,000 dollar speakers you get in the future.

as to the double box issue, i also thought the m22s would come double boxed. my m60s came double boxed(in separate boxes too), but not the m22s. but they were packaged well-plent of sufficient styrofoam

I just got my SVS PCi 16-46 and hooked it up with my M22s.

3 words...Oh....My....God!

Nothing gives you that liver rattling feeling like a good subwoofer.

The best thing about improving ones soundsystem is that you can go back and rediscover your music collection. I threw in Dead Can Dance - Spiritchaser and those aboriginal instruments they use are unreal with my new subwoofer.

DCD with a good sub is good fun.

Yes. The rediscovery of the bottom octaves -- that exists in a surprising amount of music -- is a wonderful thing. I'm glad you're loving the experience.

Have you calibrated the sub yet or are you still in the "shock and awe" phase?

Oh, for that feeling again. Obviously, I need a new sub. Or a 31 band graphic equalizer.

Am I the only person tired of the "shock and awe" phrase?

First it was "Shock and Awe" pummelling the Iraqi's, then seeing images from Mars was "shock and awe", and now subwoofers? That phrase's 15 minutes are up, no?

It was a stupid phrase to begin with. Let it DIE! DIE! DIE! DIE! (you're singin') DIE! DIE! DIE! DIE!

Oh. Sorry.

I'm still in the initial enjoyment phase. I bought an SPL meter today and hope to calibrate things this weekend.

oh lighten up. I was being facetious. I'm tired of it, too.

Your usual wit and sarcasm didn't get through on that post. My apologies.

Shock and awe.
Sock hand awe.
Sack hand owe.
Sack, hand; Ow e!

Have you seen our military jets (in person) in action at air shows? Imagine alot more of them screaming around over your home town, breaking the sound barrier, dropping bombs... I think shock and awe are probably apt descriptors of how I would feel. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive and emotional.

I was really into military aircraft as a kid and could tell you lots of facts about practically every plane in service at the time (1980s). They're very impressive machines, yes, but I think a better term for the campaign (from the p.o.v. of the Iraqis) would have been "Holy F***ing S**t!"