Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Silly Bass thread

yes! another bass thread.
i love these

anyhoo, how many octaves are present in the 20-80hz range. Is there a specific number of hertz per octave? Any links out there?
Is a speaker really able to improve its upper bass when setting the crossover to 80hz? What i mean is shouldnt a speaker be able to play upper bass just as well without a crossover being used?

What is a good test to make sure your m60s(and other sub/woofer for that matter) will not bottom out/break. I recently found some good classical CD's with really low bass, but i dont want to bust my m60 just yet.

Hawk, there is something on the internet called "Google"....

ya
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=define%3Acourteous
amazing what you can find

anyways, thanks for the input

kind of

good chat
good chat
lets do this again sometime

Here ya go. Ah, the magic of google. I got this off of an article I found by searching for ocatve hertz. The article wasn't all that good, so I'm not posting that...

By definition, an octave is a doubling of the frequency. 20-40 hx = 1 octave, 40-80 hz = 1 octave, so the range of 20hz - 80hz is 2 octaves.

I doubt you can break your M60's unless you feed them clipped signal.

I think the main advantage of crossing your speakers over at 80 hz is to relieve the strain on the amp (deep bass requires much more power than higher frequencies), not on the speakers.

Hpe this answers your questions.

Mark

perfectly!
thanks

Here's another defintion you should read Hawk.

And here is yet another on how to make a url in code on these forums. It is called the FAQ. Yet another site that answers questions IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK!

LOL!!! Stop it, you're gonna make me pee myself.

Are you saying we should all RTFF?

Chess....to quote Dennis Hopper: "Take it easy maaaaan."

I know repeating answers drives you a bit nutty. If you've answered it before...skip on to the next thread. Someone else will answer him.

For chesseroo and others posting like him in this thread,

You need to understand this is a forum, and what a forum is for.

This forum is used to find the information a person is seeking, it is another option to find answers like searching on google is.

If someone wants to find the information by scouring over articles, then they will. They also might not exactly understand what those articles are saying, BTW.

If they want to ask specific questions, and gets those answers from someone, they will post in a forum.

Deal with it, or do not respond. It gets old constantly reading 'seach for it yourself,' which is more annoying than the same question being asked over and over.

Normally I would agree JimmyTango, but reading/starting 7 new threads in 5 days is like sitting a table listening to one woman yap about every and any topic under the sun, throwing out queries left and right like a young child asking why the sky is blue and grass is green.

If there is a reasonable question one does not know, people usually look for an answer first before asking. That is not an unreasonable thing to ask for. If they do not look for an answer first, then you know the following question out of their mouths will be yet another question on the same subject with a short extension that may have been answered if they found information regarding the first question.
As a person who has tutored and taught at the university level it drives me nuts when people don't even try to think for themselves first, and if I recall correctly, Hawkson is located at U. of Illinois. Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking he was a well educated student who should be used to learning somewhat more independently now and again.
Leave the thousand and one daily questions for the real newbies who truly need help finding information. That's all i'm getting at.

Hawkson, I think you'll find this article on crossover ranges very interesting. Without prescribing what everyone SHOULD do, it makes a good case for the benefits of using a high-pass crossover, even if you have large bass capable mains. Before reading the article I thought this was a silly idea (despite some good people advocating it on this forum) but I've since tried it and like it.

• Miscellaneous Ramblings on Subwoofer Crossover Frequencies by Colin Miller and Brian Florian, Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity.

Another article Florian wrote on the LFE Channel, explaining its history and technical background, is also pretty illuminating, though it's more in the way of background and does not directly address your crossover question. Both of these articles made me feel better about the irritatingly high fixed crossover (90 Hz) on my four-year-old Yamaha receiver. I could explain why, but you're better off reading his complete explanation, which goes into the technical details of "large" and "small" speaker settings, the rationale behind Dolby's numbers, and why you are not necessarily wasting the full range of your floorstanders if you set them to small or use a relatively high crossover. I experimented this morning with his ideas on my M60s and have to admit that set to "small" with my fixed 90 Hz crossover in action (which I would set to 80 if I had a variable LFE on the receiver), the M60s sounded cleaner, more open and accurate on Yo-Yo Ma playing Haydn than in my previous settings -- which include trying the passage with no sub. I'll try some films tonight after work. Before reading the article I was trying the "both" setting for bass management, but was not satisfied, because short of setting the crossover ridiculously low around 40 Hz or so I was getting overlapping bass between the M60s and my STF-2. Now I'm trying a sub-only bass management setting with the mains set to small.

Enjoyed your question, and please continue to "yap" away regardless of Chesseroo's ill humors (which I also enjoy ... who wants a forum of only bland people without opinions?).

"Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking he was a well educated student who should be used to learning somewhat more independently now and again."

I would think a 'well educated' person would know they do not even have to read the post after seeing the topic header.

"If there is a reasonable question one does not know, people usually look for an answer first before asking."

A well educated person should know that looking for an answer includes asking for help. It is not just 'look it up.' It is called a community. You are part of it, like it or not.

I would have hated to be one of your students while you taught in college. Most likely the 'tell them, they do the rest' type of teacher. Basicly, one of the bad areas of our education system; teachers that do not teach, only talk.

yowch! Now that we've all found each others' buttons, let's not push them...

I'll quote Frank Costanza (Jerry Stiller's character on Seinfeld) with a "Serenity Now!"

Bren R.

I've heard "crankypantsitis" has been going around. A couple people in my office got it last week. Dress warm, drink lots of fluids, load up on the vitamin C, and start taking your zinc tabs, you don't want to catch it too!

to start off, my personal opinion of Cheseroo is that he is an intelligent poster who provides useful information in difficult technical threads. He is also good at providing information in threads concerning high end and obscure audio gear.

Other then that your posts are useless. In other posts where people are asking for simple advice you offer them nothing but a hard time. When someone asks a silly question (see title of thread) you take it upon yourself to make them know that they asked a silly question.


If you think you are an elitist, if you think you are above everyone, if you think your every word is more precious then mine, dont come into my threads. My threads are simple and easy to answer threads. My replies are like that too. I help out in the newbie threads, giving people their first start into the world of audio. Most people appreciate it when their threads are answered, no matter how many times it has been answered before. Getting a curt reply is not the greatest feeling. Especially not to some newbie who has no idea your not just an [censored], but in fact you are much deeper then that.

I try to help out in the same manner as i was helped out. I learned a great deal of information about the HK 525 on this board(thanks Kcarlile). When someone has a question about the HK 525, i am one of the first to answer. The question may have been answered before, but often times a newbie does not know where to look.


For example, when i posted this thread, i had a feeling there was a mathematical way to discern how many octaves there are in the 20-80hz range. I figured there would be someone who wanted to offere a short, helpful reply as to what the answer was. How would you feel if the next time you asked a question, the first response you got was "Find out for yourself."

Anyways, if you do not like reading my threads, do not answer them.

JimmyTango,
I think you have alot to learn about teaching those who are not first graders.

I think you have a lot to learn about acting older than 12.

I think we should all refrain from posting unless it is in some way helpful.

Or funny.

In either case, this last volley has been neither.

People...please....This insignificant sniping at each other will accomplish nothing than to alienate those who are already part of the community and turn off those outside who may be looking for information.
Between this thread and the spade termination thread, I know I have heard enough...

Play nice.

WhatFurrer

on a happier note...thanks Austinbirdman. Although I have read a few of Brian Florian's posts (articles?) on other forums, I had not read the crossover one. Thanks!

Sure thing. I thought it was a well-reasoned article - but I'm not sure I agree. Still experimenting. What he suggests (all speakers on small regardless of size, crossover set to THX regulation around 80 Hz) seems fine for HT, but I'm not sold on it for music. But then, with bass capable speakers, I'm not yet sold on using a subwoofer for music anyway. (I only bought my first subwoofer recently, so the experience is new to me.) Using a small - high crossover configuration seems to work on some music, but so far I've noticed this set-up can also make my M60s sound isolated and tinny while the bass is too pronounced. This can probably be fixed by a few days of tinkering with placement and settings. I read another article contrary to Florian (more proof that a little knowledge is dangerous) that questions the use of subwoofers for music because of the inevitable jarring of phase and timbre. It's over my head, scientifically, but it's exactly what my wife said, in her own way, when she first heard my attempts to integrate the HSU STF-2 with our M60s. The brief article is here for those interested:

• Pitch Timbre and Quality vs. the Subwoofer, by Jan Plummer

Here's the writer's main point:

ADDING A SUBWOOFER

When an attempt is made to add a subwoofer to a system these principles come into play. Although the subwoofer is producing the fundamentals and some harmonics from a recording; the time or phase delay resulting from the alignment and mass differential (relative to the main speakers) causes the sounds from the subwoofer to become unrelated to those of the main speakers. This occurs even though the sounds were in sync and harmonically related when they electrically entered the respective loudspeakers. Unlike the unpleasant sounds described above which are distinct sound sources, the phase differential created makes all sounds that need both speakers to be unnatural and unpleasant. The addition of a subwoofer using existing technologies requires a greater mass and /or a different operating alignment from the mains and naturally perplexes the acoustic summation at the ear. The generally autonomous and high levels of special effects in home theater make subwoofers more effective in this application. When subwoofers are used to produce natural or musical sounds the phase errors contribute and cause annoying sound at the ear. Also when the fundamentals and harmonics are present and in sync, the required volume for pitch delineation is much less. A small speaker needs an equally small low mass subwoofer operating with less cone motion to assure that the fundamentals appear first as they naturally should. The ear actually prefers to synthesize the fundamental rather than interpret poorly aligned subwoofers. This is why audiophiles don’t add subwoofers to their systems preferring instead the natural roll off of the single smaller bass unit.

The second-to-last sentence is especially interesting, "The ear actually prefers to synthesize the fundamental ...." I've read elsewhere, and even in college psych if I recall correctly, that our ears are great at intuiting information that is not there but that we expect to be there. In other words, if all the anticipated sounds of a field are not present, our active imagination will substitute some of the sounds to round it out in our minds. This is the sonic equivalent of an optical illusion. Apparently this is one reason that bookshelf speakers, and even little old computer speakers, can sometimes sound good to our ears -- because our minds supply the missing information. I gather a problem with integrating subwoofers to music can be that in place of the pleasing sounds that our mind is willing to create for us, we substitute an actual set of low frequencies from the subwoofer, and these can often be out-of-sync in phase, timbre, and volume from the main source of sound, the main source of the sonic illusion. Great main speakers aren't just accurate, after all, they are also great illusionists. Maybe I'll invite more thought on this in a "life without subwoofers" thread.

Birdman

Now this thread has truly become fascinating.

In reply to:

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I've read elsewhere, and even in college psych if I recall correctly, that our ears are great at intuiting information that is not there but that we expect to be there.

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Absolutely. The brain anticipates as it always does. The expectation of something creates the ensuing impression or response elicited by the trigger. Does anyone remember Pavlov's dog?
Note how this same principle of the human imagination will also come into play while auditioning audio equipment. The same principle in which many audiophiles refuse to believe exists, and as such, they continue to 'audition' components and compare them descriptively simply by walking into different stores or friends' homes and casually listening to things.
Illusionists indeed!!
Spiff gave a great description earlier today about his thoughts on several speaker sets. I loved his wording. If all audio reviews were similar, i would pay alot more attention to what they said and would probably buy alot more audio review magazines.

In reply to:

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(all speakers on small regardless of size, crossover set to THX regulation around 80 Hz) seems fine for HT, but I'm not sold on it for music.

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In regards to the subwoofer addition, i personally agree with you here, although i understand the rationale and do not disagree with the material from those articles. The best sound that i've found with my EP350 and M60s is to use the sub primarily for a HT application. I have the M60s set to 'large' in my receiver and have turned the EP350 crossover to about 50Hz on the dial (how accurate that really is, i'm not sure but it makes sense according to the relative rolloff at the lower end for M60s based on the NRC graph for the closest brethren, the M80s).
For music i found the sub sound to be very intrusive and rather unpleasant, similar to the description from the article. I tried tweaking position, gain and crossovers to no avail. Ultimately i wanted a sub for HT but NEEDED a sub for music that contains a lower bass level beyond the reasonable depth that the M60s can attain (i.e. notes in organ music...some of my wife's favorite material especially around Christmas...British vocal choirs and all). I found the 50Hz cross on the EP350 works best and i 'found' that point simply by listening to music and slowly turning down the cross notch by notch until it blended well with the M60s.
Chances are i may have to modify that again if i move the setup to another room and change the seating distance along with room acoustics.
There is no set point that works 100% everytime. The THX recommendation is only a starting point, not a be-all-end-all solution to the crossover setting and subwoofer use.

In reply to:

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Spiff gave a great description earlier today about his thoughts on several speaker sets. I loved his wording. If all audio reviews were similar, i would pay alot more attention to what they said and would probably buy alot more audio review magazines.

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Now I'm blushing.

I too usually set my crossover at 80hz for movies, but crank it down to 60 or even 40 when listening to music.

Thanks for the crossover suggestions chesseroo and spiffnme. Being new to this piece of equipments makes it an adventure. Just after I posted that link and note this morning my wife called me at work to ask how in god's name she could shut off the subwoofer, as it was driving her crazy listening to our CD changer (John Hiatt and Jimmie Dale Gilmore in there as she called). I had the M60s on large and xover hand-tuned to about 55 Hz, but because I don't have a variable LFE, I have to use the BASS OUT: BOTH setting to acheive this, so I imagine what was bugging her was a boomy overlap between the M60s and the sub. I'll have to take it down a notch yet, see if that works. Tonight I'll try 50 and below as a xover point.

I wish I knew some way to rig-up a variable bass management option with my Yamaha RV-1105. It seems I can only tune the sub when the BOTH setting is in effect, since the configution MAINS: LARGE / BASS OUT: SWFR does not send any signal to the sub. I only get signal to the sub if the mains are at SMALL (creating a teceiver-level fixed xover at 90 Hz) or SWFR: BOTH.

If I'm not mistaken, one workaround is to wire the mains through the STF-2 and use its variable bass management. Is this option (wiring mains through sub) a path to degradation? I can't try it at home without getting some new speaker cable.

Birdman

PS - On the positive side, playing around with the sub has made me really appreciate the fast, clean quality of bass the comes out of the M60s on music.

And on HT, well!!!! Last night was my first viewing of Finding Nemo with my daughter, and even with both the receiver and the STF-2 at moderate volume the movie managed to knock a picture off the living room wall. I was not prepared for that. Happy to report the STF-2 showed no problems following the infamous tapping-on-the-aquarium scene, which has apparently exposed defects on some recent CompUSA purchases.

Birdman

I thought I was the only one on the planet who listens to Jimmie Dale Gilmore .

Jimmie Dale is a hometown favorite here in Austin. Though he hails originally from Lubbock, all the good musicians from Lubbock who are still alive eventually move to Austin. The last two Flatlanders CDs aren't bad either.

Birdman

I was in Austin in November.
I don't recall hearing about a Jimmy Dale, but then again there was alot of music to be found in general.

Alot of music.

Also alot of birds.
I do remember all the birds but cannot recall the ones other than the grackles (and i'm not talking about the bats).
A little help "Austinbirdman"?

In my case birdman relates to my actual name. Not only am I not a bird-watcher, I actually have a mild phobia of the creatures, as they routinely seem to attack me.

But yes, Austin is a great place for birds (the animals, that is, though it's a good place for us Birds as well). Many pass through the region from November to March on migrations, and zillions are nearby all winter on the Gulf Coast.

There's also a fascinating tale of Mexican parakeets that have colonized Town Lake in downtown -- they live there in abundance and health, descendants of pet-shop escapees from 20 or so years ago. (This Web site describes a bit more about them -- technically I guess they are Monk Parakeets.)

Beyond the parakeets and ubiquitous grackles, we have many wonderful morning doves, the usual share of cardinals, jays and bluebirds, nice waves of migrating hummingbirds, and our urban creeks host many a green heron -- a very attractive set of annual visitors.

Birdman

In reply to:

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Not only am I not a bird-watcher, I actually have a mild phobia of the creatures, as they routinely seem to attack me.

---

I apologize for bringing up such a painful subject.

I did see the grackles galore, definitely saw some jays and yes, i believe that crazy parakeet was one of the birds i could not figure out.
The bats were extraordinary.