Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Ann Coulter

"If you take into consideration how free speech is curtailed in other countries, it's truly not even worth mentioning when referring to its limitations here or in the U.S."

I entirely disagree! U.S refers to themselves as the liberators of free speech. We’re not talking about countries we know to be repressive. Canada has her Charter of Rights and Freedoms; the U.S has its constitution. These are the countries we’re discussing.

“I'm an anarchist, and the "crocodile tears" for freedom of anything in North America is unjustified.”

You must live in a bubble. How can you call yourself an anarchist and use the term “crocodile tears” in the same sentence. Rebels have a cause, and it’s freedom.

Interesting discussion. I am too far behind to try to comment on much of what was discussed. However, audiosavant, your longer post above expressed many of my views quite well.

As a number of you have said, a lot of alternatives to a Democratic government sound good on paper, but don't work in practice. The problem is that Democracy also doesn't work. As Shaw stated, "Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.” I think the George W. Bush regime is a prime example of the truth of that statement--the U.S. got what it deserved. I will never forget, my wife and I were overseas during the Bush-Kerry political campaign. We were watching international TV coverage of the US election, which is interesting to do when you are an American. The news was interviewing a "group of housewives from St. Louis" (how the news referred to the group, not my characterization). One woman stated, and this is a virtual quote: "I am voting for Bush because when I go to the mall, I feel safer knowing that he is President." For some reason, when I heard that I thought that there was no way Bush was going to lose. I also concluded that the U.S. political process simply is hopeless, that we frankly don't deserve much as a group, and that we would in fact get what we deserved. (And lest anyone think this is just the reaction of a liberal opposed to a Republican, I feel the same exact way about the Obama administration. I was so offended by the Democratic primary in 2008 that when my wife and I moved I did not register to vote. After the way the DNC and press acted with regard to the Democratic primary, I decided I simply want nothing to do with the U.S. political process.)

Given my negative view of humanity as a whole, I am not optimistic that over the long-run things will get better. To the contrary, I think things will only get worse in the long-run, and that as technology "improves" we only will do more and more damage to ourselves. While there occasionally are exceptions to the rule, people in power always will do what is necessary to stay in power, and that rarely (and only by mere coincidence) will match with what is "right" or what is best for the population as a whole. I think that applies to all forms of government in all places (and extends well beyond just government to business, religion, etc.). It is not unique to the U.S. The U.S. just happens to be the predominant super power at the moment, and is still relatively young. I think the U.S. is in many respects just the loudest and most noticeable about its stupidity (though I do think at the same time that we American are as a group uniquely dumb about a number of things).

To show just how much if a misanthrope I am, I think the biggest shame is how much damage we are doing to the planet and the animal kingdom as humanity slowly destroys itself.

The bottom line is, extremism in any form, whether it be political left/right, religious, sexist, racist, environmentalist or any other, only succeeds in instigating, alienating and dividing amongst other things. To me, extremist, are a sorry and fearfull bunch who can't be trusted.

So how do we wrest control of politics from the 'extremists'?

Ray. Success is only in the grasp of those who refuse to give up. In a number of ways I agree with your assessment, but the future is not yet written.

"Success is only in the grasp of those who refuse to give up." Nice statement Fred, and very true. Of course, I hope I'm wrong in my pessimistic and dire assessment of things. And my pessimism doesn't mean I've given up. I now just focus my energies more on a micro level, as well as macro issues that I care passionately about and think I can help (specifically, animal welfare and rights).

On the point about "extremists," I think people need to be careful even there. I am no historian, but I would venture a guess that many important changes and advancements in human knowledge occured because of the bravery of what were considered exremists. I feel like I read all the time about people who were shunned in their days but history has shown to be exceptional people. A position can be "extreme" and right at the same time. I would venture a guess, based on previous posts, that I think this can occur a lot more often than others do. As those brilliant philosphers Rage Against the Machine have stated: "f the norm"!

Take the power back!

Exactly! (Actually, that probably summarizes the general feelings on this thread pretty well.)

Regarding extremities, errr, extremists. There are people who have/had what would be considered extreme views in their time, such as Eratosthenes many years BC, who proved that the Earth was a sphere and that it lay tilted on it's axis. This would have been considered risky in his time to be sure, and although he proved his 'extreme' belief, it really wasn't accepted for hundreds and hundreds of years when explorers started taking to their epic sea voyages. He presented his findings, and it was up to the people to accept or discard them.

Now, where these modern extremists(political, religious ect) are coming from, there is only ONE truth, and that is theirs. They would see you as an obstacle to conquer, because you do not follow their path. No compromise.

I consider myself something like 2/3 Conservative and 1/3 Liberal, though when I find any particular party starts abusing their power(seems to be human nature), I always tend to vote against them. We get a mixture of Canadian and American TV broadcasts in Canada, so we see some of these Coulter and O'Reilly types, and there's another kind of flakey guy with a bowtie as well. These people are sooo far to the right, I feel I need to place a level on my TV to staighten it out again. That doesn't mean to say there aren't legitmate concerns brought up by them....as far as the 'extreme' left goes,I shake my head when they think they can negotiate with people who blow up busfulls of innocent men, women and children amongst many other atrocities.

Fair enough, Adrian. I'm not sure we really are disagreeing all that much, if at all. I continue to believe that some views, even views that could be considered extreme today, are so fundamental that they should not be the subject of compromise by politicians or otherwise. (Rather than raise a host of examples that themselves could be controversial, I'll leave it as a general statement.) I also don't think views should be rejected simply because they are extreme by today's standards. I don't think you are necessarily disagreeing with those notions, but rather are pointing out that extremists as you've defined them are, shall I say, problematic. I agree with you on that. The "extremists" certainly have the right to express their views, they just tend to do more harm than good in trying to reach solutions to the most pressing problems of the day. Kind of gets back to many of the original points folks were making.

I just realized that in my first post in this thread I proclaimed that I don't engage in political discussions anymore. However many posts later, here I am! I got sucked in because folks were making interesting points in intelligent and constructive ways. You all are more informed than I am on many (most) of these issues, which has made this thread an interesting read. I've enjoyed the discussion so much, I'm going to start separate threads to get people's views on (a) abortion, (b) Israel, and (c) the right of homosexuals to marry! (I kid, of course.)

Just don't start a thread on all three combined....there's a Springer Show Raht Thar I say!!!

Ray, actually I aggreed with what you said, I just wanted to point out that society needs "free thinkers" or people who, I actually hate the term...."think outside the box" because it presents alternative views, or new ideas, hence my reference to the acceptance, eventually, of the world being flat.

I'm sure saying something like "the world is NOT flat and it is NOT the centre of the Universe" during the middle ages more than 1500 yrs after Eratosthenes and other mathematicians had proven so, would have gotten you in some deep doo-doo because the extremists of that time refused to listen. Like people with extreme viewpoints in any century, the extremists were doin' the talkin' when they shoulda been doin' the listenin'. Perhaps, it was just to maintain power over the people....what's the saying?....like mushrooms?....kept in the dark and fed sh*t.