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Denon Receiver problem - now what?
#302906 04/23/10 12:12 AM
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Hi, all. I have a 7.1 channel axiom system with M80s for fronts, QS8s side, M22i rears, EP600 sub and center channel. Well, for 2 years, I've driven the system with a Denon 3808ci receiver that should have worked well with the ohms of these speakers. A year ago, an hdmi input went bad with a lightning strike that went in through satellite cable, but got into denon. All else seemed fine, so I just bought a microprice splitter thing. Now the worst has happened. While watching tv two nights ago I noticed a hum/hiss coming from right front channel M80. I took the speaker cover off to listen closer and I touched the outside of one of the individual woofers. When I did this, it activated the protection circuit in denon and cut it off. I cut it back on to find no sound at all from this channel and then swapped left and right channels to confirm the speaker wasn't the problem. I reset the microprocessor (losing all audyssey settings and such - ugh!) and still have no sound from that channel and no test tone sound coming through it either. Denon says it has to go in for repair, but I don't have a local authorized repair place in South Carolina. I have loved the Denon sound as I am very into analog 2-channel as well as multi-channel hi-rez music. So, I'm thinking I'll have to just suck it up and purchase a new receiver. Could I have some opinions about what receivers are good musically that can drive these wonderful axioms without fail? I do need 4 or more HDMI inputs. I use two Directv receivers, Oppo dvd player, Samsung BD player, Rega tt (have phono preamp, so don't need that in a receiver), Wadia ipod thing and Cambridge Audia DACmagic. I have a Samsung DLP tv and two 300 or so cd changers. Sorry for all the wordiness, but wanted to give you enough info. to help. Should I stick with Denon, or change? I heard the Onkyo's run hot and I already use little fans on top of the denon and one hd directv receiver. I've read a tiny bit about some Pioneers and prior to this denon I used Yamaha receivers, but the denon sounded better than they did (last one being rx-v2500) right out of the box on music. I don't want to wait for weeks to have the denon fixed and my homeowners deductible is too high to use for this, so feel I should re-purchase. If you think this is unwise, I'd love your opinions about that as well. I think a receiver retailing for up to $2000 is what I'm looking for (and hoping to find a deal from an authorized dealer for less, of course). Thanks for reading this and helping advise. Main thing is it needs to work well with the axiom setup I have. Thanks.

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302907 04/23/10 12:18 AM
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I wonder if an external amp would work and bring your front channel back?


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
Wid #302908 04/23/10 12:25 AM
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I had not even thought of that. Would it work? If so, I'd love to try the Khartago by Odyssey I've read so much about. Wow - that could be interesting, except I'm also worried that perhaps more stuff got a little damaged when I had the first hdmi problem that seemed to be okay. Just not sure if these things are related, but I guess if all else held up for another couple of years, I could replace the receiver then if necessary. Thanks so much for thinking outside the box. Is there any reason this wouldn't work? Thanks for helping!

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302909 04/23/10 12:28 AM
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Well, if it's the pre-amp portion of the receiver that's damaged rather than the amp portion, then it wouldn't work. But you'd still have a spiffy amp to go with the new 4 figure receiver you're going to buy! ;\)


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302910 04/23/10 12:29 AM
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Do you think this would work even though when using the setup, no test tone is emitted? Would a 2 channel amp bypass the problem in the denon? The front panel on the denon continues to display that it is outputting all the channels (don't know if that's here nor there, but thought I'd add that I noticed that). Thanks for helping me ponder and process.

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302912 04/23/10 12:34 AM
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Hi kcarlile. Do you know if there is any way to tell which is damaged (in a simple easy way, of course)? Would be an expensive risk if I can't quite find out. But you can probably tell, had this not happened, my big purchase this spring was going to be that very amp. Sure hate it when trouble comes! Do y'all think my denon problem is the exception given its problems? I wouldn't mind maybe even trying to find the same unit again used or even step up to the wireless one above it in the line if discounted somewhere. It was difficult to initially set up, but as I said, I really like the sound. Okay - again my thanks.

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302914 04/23/10 12:55 AM
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Buy an amp with a 30 day refund policy.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302915 04/23/10 01:02 AM
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Unfortunately, a lightning strike would likely have damaged any other receiver as well, so you shouldn't exclude another Denon purchase imo. Did you get any quotes on a possible repair?

Also, that's a good idea of Rick's, if it didn't damage the pre-amps.


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
Adrian #302916 04/23/10 01:09 AM
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Seems to me like you could probably take it to darn near any electronics shop and through testing they could tell you if the problem was either an amp or a pre-amp, I wouldn't think you'd need to go through Denon for that.


Rick
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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302936 04/23/10 04:09 AM
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Laura, if another receiver was necessary, a Denon or Onkyo similar to your 3808 could be suggested. However, as Rick commented, it seems premature to be considering this. Taking the 3808 to a local repair facility would seem to be the logical move.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
JohnK #302949 04/23/10 08:59 AM
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As Adrian and John mentioned, I wouldn't turn your back on another Denon, just because your 3808 has had problems that were not due to a manufacturing defect. As you have said, chances are the lightning strike weakened some components.

I would send the 3808 in and have it repaired, then look at buying those Khartago's you want, by adding the amps it takes a big load off the 3808 which should help it last even longer.


Jason
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VP160 v3
QS8 v2
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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
JohnK #302952 04/23/10 09:28 AM
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Thanks, John, Jay and Adrian. I have thought and thought now and I do love that Denon. Also, as I try and remember better, it was not lightning, but a very hard rain where water got into the line outside my house where there was some sort of junction between coax cables from the satellite (I now remember my brother telling me to put some waterproofing stuff there and not sure I ever did that)and then took out one directv receiver which by being connected to the Denon via HDMI, took out that HDMI. I would feel better if I thought this was related to that incident. Do you knowledgeable folks out there feel that it could have somehow slightly damaged the internals, but that they could have continued working another year or so until failing? Also, why would my touching around a tweeter or woofer have shorted the thing out like that? I hope the speaker isn't weakened by this - it did output sound when I tried it on the left side. I use the dual banana plug thingies on the back of the speaker and regular banana plugs into the Denon, so don't think any wires could have touched. Any-hoo - I think I may try to find a good deal on another 3808ci with a fresh warranty for peace of mind, then get mine repaired if not too expensive and maybe sell it when fixed on audiogon or something. Are there any reasons to consider whatever unit replaced the 3808ci or to move to the wireless one that was above the 3808 in the years of my model? Or is the wireless parts something that could go wrong? I simply must decide soon so I can hear music and listening to 6.1 with no audyssey setup is just irritating and booming my bass. Also, I don't want to wait endlessly without entertainment and if I have to ship it to Denon facility, I may as well have another unit in place while I wait.

Thanks again for everyone who helps here. This is my favorite and most responsive forum. I think the Axioms are a special speaker and its supporters the best audio/home theater folks! Thanks again.
Laura

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #302993 04/23/10 05:14 PM
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How much are you willing to spend for a temporary replacement for the 3808 and do you want to ditch the 3808 once repaired?

The direct new replacement for the 3808 is the 4310 which is quite a bit more money than the 3808 was, but it does have a better video processor in it and the newer Burr Brown DAC's. I have seen it listed for under $2000 from online etailers. The 3310 is inline price wise with the 3808, it also has the better video processor but, from I have read, has a lesser quality power supply and amp section. It is still more than capable of driving any speaker but they say the quality isn't the same as those in the 43XX and up series or even in the 3808. The 3808 seems to be the last of it's breed.


Jason
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VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
jakewash #303032 04/23/10 10:02 PM
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Thanks for the info. Jay. I would rather spend a max of about $1200, so without a deal, I have to re-evaluate. I wish I knew the percentage chance that I could just get an amp for the front channels and have it work. I looked today to see if I could find a 3808 (new), but haven't found a deal yet. That might be my best bet, but since I paid near top end when it first came out, I'm hoping to find a bargain. Should I also look for a 4308 model from the same era as my 3808 just so I feel like I got something new/better? That might be a way to go as well. Much to think about, but I feel more confident staying with denon now.
Laura

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #303037 04/23/10 10:24 PM
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Hi Laura,

If your Denon won't output a test signal, I fear that the lightning strike may have damaged the microprocessor in the preamp section. You could confirm this is you have any old stereo amplifier or receiver kicking around that you could hook up to the Denon's pre-outs for the left and right front channels. If the one channel and test signal were still not functioning then the damage would be in the Denon's preamp section.

If it's any consolation, my otherwise excellent Oppo DVD player just stopped reading DVDs and DVD-Audio discs. It still plays CDs and SACDs but not DVDs. Most annoying.

Equipment does fail on occasion.

Denons, NAD, B&K, Sherwood Newcastle, Rotel and Outlaw Audio will unfailingly drive M80s, even their entry-level models. I'm less confident of Onkyo, Pioneer, or Yamaha with the exception of a few high-end models that some Axiom forum members say will drive the M80s without shutting down.

Regards,
Alan


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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
alan #303046 04/23/10 11:51 PM
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Laura have you considered looking for a refurbished 3808 or even the 2808 if this will only be a temporary replacement?

Just found this deal on a 2310. It will drive the M80s easily, has almost all the features of the 3808. The biggest features it lacks, IMO, is the networking feature and preouts for an amp.


Jason
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Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
jakewash #303088 04/24/10 10:36 AM
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Good to hear from you Alan! I do have an extra receiver I can pull out to test and see if it is in the amp or preamp section. Thanks for that suggestion. I'm going to try that today and then proceed from there. Jay, thanks for the link. I'm now a little more educated about these newer Denon's and not feeling like I want to spend the money. I enjoy tv enough, but paying for all these special video processors and such seems a waste for me. I want to enjoy home theater, but I also want very good quality sound from my analog equipment and from hi-rez discs. I would also prioritize the ability to do SACD via hdmi. So, am now going to research Alan's list of other brands (new or used). The bottom line I am getting to is that I need something that will drive my wonderful speakers and I'm thinking that the denon might be a doorstop until it seems cost effective to pay for a repair and shipping and all that. Right now it just seems like a hassle and since I don't want to dig out cables and such to hook all my equipment up to my old yamaha receiver (most are now hdmi) and don't want to be without tv/music, I'll just buy what I'll consider the permanent replacement. I'll have more time in the summer (I'm a teacher, so looking forward to the time off!) to deal with the denon and maybe just carry it to a local non-authorized denon place. This process is not quite as fun as when you are happily upgrading! I can't tell you, but am sure many of you have the same problem, how hard it is to get to the back of the jungle of cables/wires!

On that note, Alan could you or anyone who might fully understand this, please be explicit on the testing through pre -outs idea? Do I simply connect denon's pre-outs to the pre-ins on my yamaha then turn both on and play a source through the denon? Do I keep the speakers connected to the denon or connect them through the yamaha? Sorry to make something simple seem complicated, but my brain is fuzzy from all this! Thanks to you all, again! Enjoy your weekend!
Laura

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #303092 04/24/10 12:04 PM
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It's highly doubtful the Yamaha, or any avr for that matter, has the right connections to test the Denon. It would have to have an "amp in" or "main in" connection to be able to use the the Denons "pre outs".

Do you have a local audio shop with a 30 day return policy? If so go and buy an amp bring it home and try it then return it.

When using an external amp you connect the speakers to the amp not the avr.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #303100 04/24/10 02:02 PM
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Hi Laura,

You would connect the Denon's pre-outs for the left and right front channels to the Yamaha's "amp in" for the left and right front channels if it has an "amp-in" L and R inputs.

If it doesn't just use any line-level analog input labeled "CD" or "Aux" or "Tape". Don't use "Phono" if it has that input.

Connect your front M80s to the Yamaha's L and R main channels and leave the Denon to drive the other speakers. Switch the Yamaha to Stereo mode and "Direct" or just Stereo is fine. Set the Yamaha volume to about the 11 o'clock position, which should give you enough output to hear the output from the Denon's front L and R pre-outs.

If you do hear the Denon test signal from the M80s, then you'll know that one of the Denon's main amp channels is defective. If you don't hear the test signal, then the Denon's preamp section has been damaged.

Turn on the Denon receiver first, then the Yamaha. Set the Denon volume control where you would normally set it so the pre-outs will have enough output to feed a signal to the Yamaha's line-level (amp-in) inputs.

Regards,
Alan


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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
alan #303101 04/24/10 02:53 PM
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Thanks for the details, Alan. I'm going to give it a try, but now being the Gemini I am, I am selling myself on sticking with Denon. I don't believe I can blame it and I have become familiar with using its features and just am lazy about the learning curve with those other models you mentioned. I've read some reviews of the Sherwoods and NADs in particular, but I think I like the synergy with Axioms and Denon (to my ears, they sound great together) and it seems there is much value built into the denon with the many hdmi inputs and such. I guess a final question and maybe it should be another thread is:

Given the choice of a refurbished 3808ci, 4308 or 4310, which would y'all choose. I'm not citing prices I've seen because I'd like to know what you think based on feature set, etc. If it turns out the 3808 is just better and has better amps, then maybe I should stick with it. I have 7.1 speakers now and do not intend to mess with the height stuff the new receivers have. Again thanks for taking time to help and I hope others can enjoy/benefit from the dialogue!

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
Wid #303121 04/24/10 05:01 PM
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Hi Wid,

FYI, even if an older stereo receiver does not have "amp-in" connections, you can use any analog line input except "Phono" as an "amp-in" connection.

Line-level inputs and pre-amp outs are standardized to accept, or output, respectively, at 1 or 2 volts. Pre-outs of course will output more depending on the setting of the other receiver's volume control.

The reason you can't use a Phono input is because it contains not only an extra gain stage for the tiny 5-millivolt output of a moving-magnet cartridge, but an RIAA equalization circuit (or two extra gain stages for a moving-coil cartridge, whose output is in microvolts).

Cheers,
Alan


Alan Lofft,
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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
chapin99 #303122 04/24/10 05:12 PM
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Following up - alrighty! I found a great deal at an authorized online Denon dealer and pulled the trigger on the 4310. I was also able to purchase an extra two years of warranty coverage for 40% off their usual price, so will at least have peace of mind for the next four year! I still can't get the Denon support person to respond to my last two questions, but don't really care since I happened upon the same person's name responding to an inquirer that the Denon would NOT drive 4 ohm speakers. Probably just some technical liability thing or something since so many here have enjoyed Denon's running Axioms. I'll probably send the unit in to an authorized repair place this summer, but may not want to sell it. I could put it in the living room or keep it in case I have to send the 4310 in. The 3808 does strike me as a unique offering among receivers and I am still glad to have used it for a few years until this final blow. I still have one nagging question for Alan or someone knowledgeable:

Could my speaker have been damaged from this episode? When I briefly swapped it with the left channel, sound was emitted, but I didn't listen but a second to confirm that - didn't think to see if there were any qualitative changes. I also do not understand how my touching the surround of a speaker could cause the short/protection circuit activation situation. Do I need to worry about the Axiom while I await the new receiver? Thanks if you can help me close the door on this chapter! I'm sure I'll have some SNAFU's when installing the 4310, so would like to at least resolve this in my head before approaching the next thing. Thanks again to everyone.
Laura

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
alan #303123 04/24/10 05:12 PM
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Thanks Alan, did not know that.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
alan #303124 04/24/10 05:16 PM
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 Originally Posted By: alan
Hi Wid,

FYI, even if an older stereo receiver does not have "amp-in" connections, you can use any analog line input except "Phono" as an "amp-in" connection.

Line-level inputs and pre-amp outs are standardized to accept, or output, respectively, at 1 or 2 volts. Pre-outs of course will output more depending on the setting of the other receiver's volume control.

The reason you can't use a Phono input is because it contains not only an extra gain stage for the tiny 5-millivolt output of a moving-magnet cartridge, but an RIAA equalization circuit (or two extra gain stages for a moving-coil cartridge, whose output is in microvolts).

Cheers,
Alan



So, could any receiver be able to have an external amp added to it by using any line level input?


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
Wid #303126 04/24/10 05:19 PM
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Nope, other way around.

Any pre-amp could use a receiver as an amp by using a line level input on the receiver.

Although presumably, if the receiver had a line-level output (like a tape loop or something) you could add an external amp to that. The volume wouldn't adjust or anything like that, but hey...

Last edited by kcarlile; 04/24/10 05:19 PM.

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Re: Denon Receiver problem - now what?
Ken.C #303128 04/24/10 05:58 PM
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OK, I had that ass backwards.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

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