Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater how well does a 3.0 HT work and sound?

Hi,
This is my first post on the forum and I am looking for help creating upgraded sound for a new 50" Samsung plasma. I am a real dolt in this area and have not had a decent system in 30 years. Just to give you an idea of this, I still have have my original Marantz 2220B receiver from which I blew the speakers that came with it. 20 years later a couple of smooth talking dudes sold me a pair of speakers from the back of their van. The speakers were so huge I felt I could never blow them and although I never did they sounded like shit. Now am back to square one - help!

The following is a post I made on another forum but since then I have been reading many posts here and am more confused than ever. Any thoughts????

Is a 3.0 system feasible and sound good?

I live in a high rise condo. Living room (TV) is app 11x20 and also open to a 9x9 solarium and 8x12 dining room. Just bought Samsung 50" plasma and the sound is not great at all.

Looking at a 1910 Denon receiver (or 790 which seems identical?) $600 to $650.

First speaker quote was Paradigm Millenia 20 trio $1150 with PDR8 sub $260. A package deal with receiver and looks nice and compact but over $2000 plus tax.

Same dealer also offered Paradigm Cinema 330 center $335, Atom L&R $300, stands $140 with same sub and receiver total $1560 + tax.

Have now looked at Axiom 2nds M22 L&R $424, 150v2 center $367, 125v2 sub $338, stands $186 total $1315 + need receiver.

So....... Axiom has a heavy duty M80 floor standing unit $1200/pair, with 150v2 center $367 total $1567 + receiver. My questions are - would this kind of system work in my condo with no sub, is the Denon sufficient to drive it and would one of the other systems be better?

System is 80% TV and 20% music unless sounds so good we will listen to more music. Any thoughts or should I just stick to HTIB and save $$$$.

Also, I live in the GTA in Ontario.

Welcome to the Forum!

The M80s and VP150 would make for an excellent 3.0 system and yes that Denon will drive them. I used an older 1804 to run my M80s, VP150 and 3 QS8s with no problems. The M80s do an excellent job on their own with movies/TV. It looks like you have enough space to not be worrying about the depth the M80s have. I would suggest looking to the Factory outlet to save a few bucks too. These speakers are slightly cosmetically blemished although I have yet to find any problems on my FO purchases.

You will be listening to more music.

When you write TV do you mean cable or movies?

If you're looking at a 3.0 system due to budget concerns, you might also consider a phantom centre and with the money saved, pick up a couple of surround speakers. As Jay mentioned, you may want to go through the FO as well for some further savings(as I did).

The M80's will turn you into music lovers forsure. And when it comes to music, the 80's don't need a subwoofer.

However since you've said you are looking for something to watch TV (I'm assuming movies are also included in the realm of TV) with my advice would be to look at getting something along the lines of a pair of M22's, a VP100 center and QS4 surrounds. If you purchased all of these from the Factory Outlet (do not fear the FO, the quality of product that comes out of the FO will blow your mind, it did mine) you can save a total of 15% (10% from the FO and another 5% for purchasing 5 speakers at once). So you'd be looking at right around $1000 for all of that with tax, and then could shop around for a sub from SVS, HSU or somewhere like that which, IMO, will give you more bang for your buck if you're trying to stick to a pretty tight budget.

The M22's will give you great sound, and when partnered with a good subwoofer will give you an awesome movie experience. The M80's do alright with movies on their own, but for me a subwoofer brings an entirely new level of enjoyment to movie soundtracks (which is why I recommend M22's + a sub over M80's by themselves for movie watching). Keep in mind that you may not make a lot of friends in your condo, but you won't be able to hear them complaining when you have the music turned up either, so it all works out in the end.

Yes it’s feasible but IMO having a center may not be worth it for TV and music with some exceptions.



What type of music do you plan on listening to?

Do you really plan on not watching any DVDs?

Are you skipping a subwoofer because of the LFE bothering neighbors or some other reason?

Do you plan on putting together a full HT and are just planning on doing it piece by piece?

Do you plan on living in this condo for a long time or might you plan on moving to a stand-alone house and eventually upgrade with a subwoofer and full surround sound system?

I ask these questions because they would effect my speaker choice both for right now and to have an upgrade path in mind for later.

Based on what you’ve said so far I think you could really go either way in getting bookshelf speakers like the M22s or floor standing speakers like the M60s or M80s but w/o knowing more information it’s hard for me to recommend anything specific to meet your needs.

Cheers,
Dean

Thanks to all who replied!

Some answers to your questions:

TV means mostly cable and some movies. We have Rogers on demand and also rent DVD's.
Budget means not overkill - around price of TV ($ 1800)incl receiver, also overkill means what wife will do to me if much more than that.
Music means easy listening, light classical - not hard rock, jazz
We are older so only home move would be closer to grandkids in ON but would still be a condo or smaller house, no vaulted ceilings or great rooms but good size TV room.

My original goal was to really improve the TV sound and as a bonus play music better than the sound on my Sony boom box.
The original price quote of $2000 for the Paradigm 1.1 made me reassess the whole thing.

A couple of my restraints are livng in the condo does not give us a whole lot of room so trying to keep the # of items down. Also a big sub may not go over well on the 14th floor. The other thing is all wall to wall carpets and wife does not want wires running across the floor, otherwise I would love surrounds which was also suggested on the CR forum.

Still looking for feedback. Thinking about M80/60's & no sub/center or M22's and sub but no center. Re sub's, I know Hsu, SVS, Aperion make good subs but not sure about cross border with these firms, freight/duty.

If there are any carpet lifters out there, let me know so I can buy the flat wire and hang QS's on the wall.

Thanks again for your time and expertise.

Hi Unk Bob, just to let you know, SVS has a Canadian dealer out of Markham, Ont. at Sonic Boom Audio . You might also consider a Paradigm DSP 3100 for sub duty from Audio Video Unltd. . This is a good quality, moderately priced sub, and AVU is no stranger to haggling on prices.

If I were in your situation, I would really try to work in some surrounds somehow. Hopefully you can run some wires along/under the baseboards or something, I think they'll really enhance your HT enjoyment. I would still be looking at M22s(and 'Qs' for surrounds) from the factory outlet as well *if you use a sub...if *not, consider a pair of M60s from the FO but with surrounds that may go overbudget.

Right now, I have a 3.0 HT. If it was bookcase M22's I'd be happy, but with the on-wall, it has to be 3.1. I'm not complaining. I'm happy with the on-wall M22, but a sub-woofer is necessary for music and movies. Although with some music I've been listening to lately that's not bass intensive, such as piano jazz and some horns, it sounds wonderful.

Well if you’re planning mostly easy listening and light classical and can either make or buy some inexpensive stands locally then I would get either the M22s or M3s. IMO the M22s are price for performance the best speaker Axiom makes and combined with a good subwoofer will get you to 95% of what the M80s sound like. You won’t get deep bass but based on your listening preferences I don’t think you’ll need it. The M3s on the other hand are designed to be used w/o a subwoofer (though they can be) having a bit of a hump in the bass to give the feel of deeper bass extension than they really have.

Since space is an issue you might also consider the new on-wall versions but I’m not sure how well they would do in the bass department if you don’t also have a subwoofer.

Even if you don’t plan on getting a subwoofer I would give the M22s or M3s a try. Should you decide that they don’t have enough bass then if you’re within the 30 day trial period you could upgrade to the M60s and Axiom will as far as I know pay for the return shipping. I certainly wouldn’t go as high as the M80s unless you plan to move to a much larger room and listen very loud.

Also by going with the M22 or M3 mains you could assuming you can work out your wiring issue put together a nice set of home theater speakers for under $900 USD by using the factory outlet. A pair of M22s for your mains, a M2 for the center and a pair of QS4s for $895 USD, or get 3 M3s for the front and 2 QS4s for $791 USD.

Play around with the factory outlet and put together other combinations to see what you might want. For example you could upgrade the center above from an M2 to an M22 and have 3 matching front speakers which is considered ideal though certainly not necessary. By going the factory outlet route you get 10% off and if you get 5 items an additional 5% off.

Unless making or getting some inexpensive stands locally isn’t possible or you plan on doing a lot of 2 channel music listening that need solid bass I would skip getting tower speakers. If you do go with tower speakers I would only go as high as the M60s.

Should you later find you want more of the home theater experience you can always add a subwoofer or even a Buttkicker (or other tactile transducer). They attach to your furniture and shake it directly so it doesn’t go through the walls/floor. I bought one for my apartment and it works great but I only use it for movies as I don’t find it was necessary for music.

Given your budget, I would agree with Jay. Go for the M22. I believe Johnk, who listens to a lot of classical, started of with the M22 and added a sub later. The center channel should really clean up dialog for movies. I don't know how it would work for cable. You would have to use one of the formats that extracts dialog from the left and right channels. Probably works well.

I went with a 3.1 in my apartment building (M22 + EP 175 + crappy center that will be replaced one I get more $$)

I use auralex stuff to help isolate the sound / help keep neighbor complaints down (it actually helps a LOT in an apartment building to have a subdude + mopads. I highly recommend them if you're in an apartment)

When I was at my previous apartment, I had a pair of M60s. (no center, but I never felt the need for one with my m60s)

given both setups, i prefer the M60s by themselves (because i am constantly listening to music), but action movies + videogames sound *much* better with my current setup.

A dedicated center channel does appear to make dialogue easier to hear , especially when you bump the sound level for that channel up more than the mains, so adding a center could be more beneficial than surrounds, especially for TV, although I love my full 5.1 system for TV, movies and music.

Adding a center channel will, generally, improve sound. But I put my left, right, center money into just a left and right. Paired with a reciever that does good phantom processing, I think my l/r system beats a system with lesser l/r and a center - for movies, and especially for music.

At least that's how I choose to spend my money...

Hi all, again, thanks for your replys. I'm still searching.

Adrian - Did check out AVU, they had an old Axiom speaker sitting in their showroom but said it had been there for years and no one knew where ir came from!!! Anyway they flogged Paradigm, did not get any quote. Then went to a higher end audio store in Toronto area and did get a quote. The DSP3100 was $575 when included with their package. Whole thing with Mini Monitor mains, Atom rear and 1910 receiver was app $2000 + tax.
Went there looking for sub price but they too flogged Paradigm and sort of poo pooed Axiom indicating they were too small a firm and really could not hold a candle to all the R&D that Paradigm did.
I must say their Monitor 7 floor sounded much fuller then the Mini Monitor but more expensive. They did not mention ADP190 surrounds and instead quote Atoms for this.

I appreciate what you and Grunt say about surrounds. I'll look hard into solving the wire/carpet problem.

Grunt - Thanks so much! Most here echo your thoughts on the M22 + sub as a great combination. What bugs me is having to pay for the stands and then adding a sub. So I'm thinking M60 no sub/centre but with QS4/8 if wiring resolved.

Micah - both you and Grunt seem to stress the sub with M22 so still scratching my old bald head on that one.

To add to the quandry, I called Axiom and spoke to a rep (Brent).
I explained my room and as soon as I mentioned M60 he jumped on it but also said I needed a center (VP100) as we do watch a lot of TV but not a sub with M60. He may well be right.

So now what? I was trying to keep the setup ~ $2k and use the Axiom outlet. Any other thoughts out there??? One of my concerns is total overkill with too much sound.

One other thing - how big a deal is it to hook all these components up? My buddy bought a HTIB from Costco for $400 and spent another $600 for a Harmony and the Geek Squad to hook it all up.

I had a similar experience with AVU. Their bread and butter is Paradigm so that's what they try to push...nothing wrong with that, as they are a fine speaker, it's just that you can get a "similarly good" set up from Axiom for less money. Many of these dealers are threatened by internet direct(ID) companies because it removes the middle man(them). I auditioned the Monitor 7's, 9's, and 11's as well as the Studio 100's...to me, the 7's were very lacking compared to the others, kind of thin sounding with little bass. The 11's and Studios were nice but the cost of them(Studios) was around what I wanted to pay for ALL my speakers. I found the Axioms and Paradigm Studios to sound quite similar....detail, imagery, bass.

I believe you'll be happy with either set-up, M60's/no sub or M22/with sub. Although you emphasized "TV", when you hear these speakers, I'm confident you'll start growing your music collection in rapid succession.

Reg set-up...the guys here are great, they helped myself set-up my system just as they have with many others. Heck, if you buy a Denon, these guys will be your best friends(unlike the Denon Manual)

IMO for just watching TV and light classical the M22s or M3s alone should do a fine job. For movies or music with substantial bass you would want to use a subwoofer to get the full effect.

The M60s would overall sound better than the M22s without a subwoofer IMO even for TV and light classical as well as for the occasional movie because they will have more bass. As long as you don’t plan on watching lots of action movies and trying to recreate the “theater” level bass feeling then you shouldn’t ever need a subwoofer with the M60s. If making or buying inexpensive stands for the M22s locally is not possible then the M60s are a much more attractive option.

Unless you plan on having people sitting off center from the screen then it’s my opinion a center speaker is not necessary in the same way it’s not necessary for stereo listening . I almost never used a center speaker in my apartment since I almost always sat in the center seat. The advantages of using a center speaker are that it anchors the dialogue and vocals to the screen for those sitting off center. Additionally, it allows you to control the volume of the dialogue and vocals separately so they can be turned up without having to the everything up often making the rest of the sound too loud. However, most receivers have a night mode or other feature that compresses the dynamic range making it easier to hear the soft passages without the loud passages being to loud.



It‘s not a big deal to hook things up. Denons are a little less user friendly to set up than Onkyo in my opinion but even they aren’t a big deal if you have someone to talk you through any sticking points. I bought my speakers wire a Lowe’s. Wire might cost you a little more if you get something special to run under the carpets then I would go with something like Blue Jeans cable. Places like Lowe’s and Home Depot sell cable guides that can be run along the corners of a wall or along baseboards and look ok. For the longest time I just put thick throw rugs over the cables running to the back of my apartment and never knew they were there, but that option could be tough depending on the room layout. I’m sure others will have better suggestions on how you could run the wire for surrounds.

I second what grunt just said.

22s will work for just about eveerythig unless you want some more bass, then you either need to add a sub or get the M60s. If you want to watch movies and really feel the LFE, then you will need a subwoofer regardless of what speaker you get. I find a dedicated center makes dialogue a little easier to hear as you can adjust the center channel volume up a little more than the mains.

This whole speaker thing is driving me nuts - most (all) of you seem rational about this sort of thing so no doubt have been through the ever twisting maze edging up and up the never ending cost incline.

Here is my latest chapter.

The super in our building looked at my floors and said no problem to hide the wires, worst case $100 to have prof carpet people fix it if things got kind of untucked.

Now I can look at surrounds without fear of wife. But what to get? A post by DANMAGICMAN7 compared QS4/8 and said no question the 8's are the only choice of the two. Actually could not find his post here but found a link on a dedicated Axiom thread at Blue-ray? Anyway, the 8's plus stand are $850+T.

Everybody seems to forget about stands around here and they are not cheap. Also QS stands are unique.

Now getting to the meat of the matter. The same DAN above also compared M60 and M22, great job BTW, and these are what I am considering at this point in the maze. My issue is cost now (lower) versus long term satisfaction and not having to tweak the whole system - just want to enjoy the sound.

Price wise the M60 is $900, the M22 are $424 + app $200 stands + $ app $600 sub = $1224. Sub is either Axiom 375?, Paradigm DSP3100 $575, or SVS PB10 $579 - any thoughts on which sub would be better? At this point the M60 is $300 cheaper but not sure full set up wise which is best.

In addition to all that - the dreaded center channel! I think we do need one as wife watches a lot of TV (Y&R, Corriestreet). If I lay the speaker beneath the stand on the credenza thingy I will have to lift the TV 2-3 inches, not a big deal but pain in the ass. What would fit and look good would be an M2 or M3 or VP100 ON END in the intended speaker compartment in the cabinet, vertical space is limited. Is this reasonable (especially the VP on end) and would any/all blend with either M60 or M22?

Receiver - I really have not looked at these and only mentioned Denon 1910 as this was in my original quote for $650. COSTCO has a Marantz SR 5004 for $700. Any thoughts or suggestions in this area?

I assume the speaker packages from Axiom do not include stands?

When I first started out looking at improving the sound from the TV and a music listening upgrade, I did not think it was a big deal. The first quote of $2000 really made me blink twice. Now it looks like I'm well beyond that especially with tax.

Really cannot stand the TV sound, so have to do something. Big issue for me seems to be M60 vs M22, surrounds should be in but what kind, and center - phantom or real. I think I am getting too caught up in all this so need some rational thinking from you.

Bob, are the walls drywalled in your apt(some condos are not, I understand). The Qs come with a T-bracket, as long as you can get a couple of screws into something solid in the wall OR use 3-4 screws into some wall plugs, you should be fine. No need for stands unless there's absolutely no way you can attach the included T-bracket to the wall. It's nice to hide the wires in the wall for the Qs, but certainly not necessary(mine aren't hidden). You could also use Axiom's flat wire as an option too.

Speaker stands aren't included with the packages, they are extra.

I think you can get a better deal on the DSP3100 if you haggle a bit, although I understand the DSP subs have been upgraded since last year when I priced them out, so maybe they've gone up.

The QS8s have a power and range advantage over the QS4s, but either one would be an excellent surround. You may not need the extra power of the QS8 over the 4, but I've always felt the 8 was the better value(on paper at least).

Yeah Bob, you don't need stands unless your super has a 'no holes' policy or something. But we're talking a few screw holes that can easily be spackled up if/when you move. If your super is pretty laid back about things then drilling a small hole right behind the wire posts on the back of the QS4/8's and running the wire down the inside of the wall and out a hole in the bottom (either in the floor board, or right above it) makes for a super clean look.... so clean, almost no wife could ever complain.

As for the M60's vs M22's + sub + stands... if most of your tv watching is actual tv and not a lot of movies, I would say M60's would be a very good solution for you. Easy to move around, practically full range, and very sexy to boot! If movies make up 25% of your intended usage or more, and you really enjoy the sound effects of blockbusters like 'Batman : Dark Knight', 'Ironman', and the like, then that's where a nice subwoofer really makes your system shine.

But for straight tv, or if you're more mellow when it comes to movie watching, then I'd say a pair of M60's is all you'll ever need my friend.

Totally w/ Micah. My ep500 was dead for a couple of days before I noticed it. The 60's did such a great job with everything that I only noticed the sub's absence when I was really crankin' CD's or BD's. And even then, it wasn't at all like the guts fell out of everything.

I'd do the M60's and a VP150 and put a sub on my wish list. It may be too much for your neighbors anyway. Even if it's a couple of years, you'll still be happy w/ the 60's when/if you do get a sub.

You can find speaker stands from just about anywhere that will work with the M22s and they cost quite a bit less than Axiom's versions. I have used my M22s with a VP100 in a 3.0 scenario for just TV watching and it works great, makes it bearable to listen to. I am always surprised at how good the M22s sound on their own with out a sub. You only really need a sub for LFE in movies and even then only if you really want to feel the movie as well as hear it.

My suggestion would be to order the M22s and a VP100 try them out and add to the system from there. If you do not find the M22s satisfactory send them back and get the M60s. Axiom pays for the shipping when this is done with in the 30 day trial period, you just have to pay for the price difference between the M22s and M60s.