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#306717 - 05/16/10 01:08 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: CV]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
Steve, I guess I'm just a 'good enough' kinda guy. I get paid to fiddle with stuff all day long, so by the time I get home, bumpy is good enough.

CV, I bet less than 20% of HT owners have two subs, and only you and a couple of other lunati, um, enthusiasts have 4 monster subs. ;\) For what its worth, the SVS eq is a computer, but it can only do one thing.
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#306842 - 05/17/10 03:03 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
First I have to give a shout out to Doug at SVS Tech support for corresponding with me this weekend over an issue I seemed to be having. Not many companies or people offer that sort of service so it deserves recognition.

Well might as well get the issue mentioned. After the first spectacular run of the AS-EQ1 in the single center seat I ran it the next day across all three seats getting almost no improvement notable by meter or ear. I ran it about 10 more times in the single center seat trying to recreate the first results and continued to get almost no improvement. This morning I tried again in the single center seat and once again near perfection. Liking the results I was almost afraid to try 3 seats again. This time the 3 seat run came out quite well. I have no idea what was going on. I know the sound of my system after listening and tweaking almost every week for a year and can clearly hear when the EQ is working well and when itís off or not working well so I donít think this was any sort of post calibration measurement anomaly though I could be wrong. I was probably just screwing something up and got it corrected w/o realizing what I was doing. But for now Iím going to leave well enough alone until I get a chance to have Sean come over.

So how did it do this time? Well for the single seat it once again took a 19dB range (e.g. +/-9.5dB) and reduced it to just over 4dB (e.g. +/-2dB). Try to tell me you canít hear the difference in that.

For the 3 seat run I used only 8 of the 32 measurement positions this time since I was also comparing it to what the Audyssey in my Onkyo could do so I used the same 8 positions called for in the Onkyo manual. (Note: this is not the ideal way to run the AS-EQ1 which suggests using measurements 2 feet apart over the seating area with around 18 or so being a good number as above that you get diminishing returns. I will redo the 3 seat single row and 2 row measurements using the optimal configuration.

As I expected it didnít do quite at well as the single seat since it has to average out for a wider area, about 9 feet across (I have big chairs). In this case it took the 19dB range of the center seat and brought it down to 10dB. The 20dB range of the left seat was brought down to 12dB and the 19dB range of the right seat was brought down to 14dB. Remember this was not an optimal use of the AS-EQ1 but a test to see how it performed with the same inputs as the EQ on my Onkyo.

Clearly not as good as calibrating a single seat but that was expected. Hopefully I can have Sean come over soon so we can hook up his subs and do a test with his matching subs and then a mismatch of my EP500 and one of his. My understanding is that the real strength of the AS-EQ1 is calibrating 2 subwoofers at the same time.

As a comparison I ran the Audyssey EQ on my Onkyo in just the center seat and it reduced the normal 19dB range down to 11dB whereas the AS-EQ1 took it down to a 4dB range. When I ran the Onkyoís EQ over all 3 seats it took the center seat range down from 19dB to 14dB whereas the AS-EQ1 brought it down to 10dB. I forgot to measure the outer two seats for the Onkyo but the AS-EQ1 also did noticeably better than the Onkyo there too.

I also ran the Onkyoís EQ in conjunction with the AS-EQ1. Actually you just run the AS-EQ1 and then the Onkyoís one after another with the AS-EQ1 in the chain to the subwoofer. Very simple to do. The Onkyo set the trim level for the sub at +.5 which is exactly what the AS-EQ1 was suggesting. I canít compare the distances since the Onkyo set the distance to 30 feet (the max) while the AS-EQ1 suggested 32 feet. I did the same as before and adjusted the other speaker distance to compensate for the 2 extra feet of the subwoofer.

So far so good. The AS-EQ1 is working nicely and noticeably better than the Onkyo over the range of the LFE channel even though itís not being utilized to itís full potential yet. Probably the next set of test will but one and two rows of seats using optimal measurements for the AS-EQ1. Then the part I canít wait for, calibrating two similar and also two dissimilar subwoofers.
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#306843 - 05/17/10 03:15 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: grunt]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Iím with Michael on the REW thing. While it might be a good route to go Iím not sure I want to take the time and effort learn it (so says the guy testing and opining on the AS-EQ1).

Like Casey I think I might prefer the ability to tweak specific frequencies since I agree that what I prefer to hear is more important to me than a flat FR graph or someone else ďidealĒ curve (Audyssey).

 Originally Posted By: CV

I don't really understand the receivers that do 3 subwoofer outs. A jump from 2 to 4 seems more logical, no?

Not if your just trying to keep ahead of the Joneses. They might be thinking that with 2 output you could Y-connect 2 pair to get 4. Also I might be the exception but 3 outputs would be perfect for me as at most I would have 2 subwoofers but would still like a separate output for the Buttkicker.
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#306844 - 05/17/10 03:45 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: grunt]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
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Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11733
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Good point on the Buttkicker. Since my pre-pro has both XLR and RCA subwoofer outs, I figured I'd use the XLR for the subs and the RCA for the Buttkicker. Whatever pre-pro I replace this with should likewise have the two types of outputs. Of course, this is one of the reasons I would like the superior subwoofer EQ built into the pre-pro itself or for it to have XLR inputs and outputs. Of course, if it's built into the pre-pro, then it must be applying the subwoofer corrections to both XLR and RCA outputs, right? That's assuming both outputs are active simultaneously. I haven't really looked into it. I'm sure there's some problem with my ideas, beyond what I'm lazily speculating.

Dean, thanks for the extremely detailed experimentation. I knew you'd have a lot more to offer the group.

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#306845 - 05/17/10 03:51 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: fredk]
CV Offline
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Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11733
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
CV, I bet less than 20% of HT owners have two subs, and only you and a couple of other lunati, um, enthusiasts have 4 monster subs. ;\)


People make expensive gear for a tiny sliver of the market all of the time. I don't expect what I want to be super-cheap, but it still seems like it could at least exist. Considering they're half-way there, it's not too much of a stretch. It's like getting a multichannel amp instead of a monoblock. The technology's there. It just needs a little more packed into a single box to satisfy a different segment of the market. Or I'm crazy.

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#306847 - 05/17/10 03:58 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: CV]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: CV
Good point on the Buttkicker. Since my pre-pro has both XLR and RCA subwoofer outs, I figured I'd use the XLR for the subs and the RCA for the Buttkicker. Whatever pre-pro I replace this with should likewise have the two types of outputs. Of course, this is one of the reasons I would like the superior subwoofer EQ built into the pre-pro itself or for it to have XLR inputs and outputs. Of course, if it's built into the pre-pro, then it must be applying the subwoofer corrections to both XLR and RCA outputs, right? That's assuming both outputs are active simultaneously. I haven't really looked into it. I'm sure there's some problem with my ideas, beyond what I'm lazily speculating.

Dean, thanks for the extremely detailed experimentation. I knew you'd have a lot more to offer the group.


No thank you Charles as now I know how much better sub EQ can really do in my room big difference moving from theory to reality. Problem is Iím in the same boat as you. The system I really want isnít available yet. So likely a second sub will be my first option unless I drag my feet long enough for the ďrightĒ EQ system to come out.
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#307380 - 05/20/10 03:50 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: grunt]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Iíve done some more listening over the last couple days with the configuration unchanged from when I ran only 8 of the 32 possible measurements.

While using 8 measurements over three seats made a measurable improvement in the FR in all three seats the audible difference isnít so clear. Remember that when I ran the AS-EQ1 on just one seat in the sweet spot the results were nothing short of fantastic both measured, and more important audibly. Over all three seats itís almost impossible for me to tell the difference when itís on or off even with music with lots of bass. The only time I can tell the difference is when sitting in the sweet spot playing drone music with a very heavy bass line and then only when I A/B between having the AS-EQ1 on or off.

Granted this was with only 8 measurements positions and my understanding is that the real strength of the AS-EQ 1 is in equalizing 2 subwoofers at the same time. Something which may not happen for a couple of weeks. I may or may not take the time to EQ for multiple seats using more measurements before then but would actually prefer to wait until Sean is here so we can do blind A/B comparisons.

I may however redo the calibration for the sweet spot alone since I really liked the sound of my system when I had done that before.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#307386 - 05/20/10 04:03 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: grunt]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11733
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I never did try doing all of the measurements from one listening position. Now I'm curious about that.

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#307389 - 05/20/10 04:30 AM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: CV]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
According to Doug from SVS in most cases more than 18 reading even across multiple seats leads to diminishing returns. Some things Iíve read in the Audyssey thread at AVS suggest that you can even get negative returns from taking to many position measurements over a complex seating arrangement like and ďLĒ shape. Though I havenít tested it I donít thing there is actually much advantage to more than 8 readings if just calibrating for one seat in the sweet spot certainly more than 18 would be wasting time from what Iíve learned.

The problem with EQ over multiple seats is boosting or cutting a frequency for one seat will do the same for other seats which might have needed the opposite. Thatís why Doug said to me the AS-EQ1 works best over multiple seats when using 2 subwoofers. Which agrees with the paper I was just reading, the one titled ďLow-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers.Ē

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/T...%20Publications
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#307470 - 05/20/10 09:46 PM Re: SVS AS-EQ1 subwoofer EQ [Re: grunt]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Very good paper by Welti and Devantier, Dean; thanks for linking it. I'd read it in my AES Journal, but wasn't aware that it was now available to non-members online.
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