Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners advise for M80s and amp

Hello, my current setup consists of Epic 60/500 with VP150 and QS8s, Sony Bravia XBR-40 LCD and Denon 3808. Very happy with the sound quality and I am seriously considering trading up my M60s to M80s and adding an amp for more dynamics. I am seeking superior SQ and MUCH more volume mainly for music.

Is it possible to add a pro audio amplifier in the 350 watts RMS range to power the M80's and run the rest of the system with the 3808? I don't want to get to technical and keep costs down while upgrading. I'm pretty much a noob so any detailed explanations are greatly appreciated. I have been looking at the Beringher EP 2000 Europower amp at PE for $299. Any suggestions for amps in the same price point/power specs? I have no experience with pro audio but it seems like the biggest bang for the buck. Thanks for feedback.

Demetrios, you haven't described the distance of your listening position or the actual SPL levels that you want, but the 3808 can easily drive the M60s to beyond a safe listening level in most situations. If you want "MUCH" more volume, a concern should be the possibility of permanent hearing damage.

So, are you pushing your current system to its maximum volume? How big is your space and how close to you sit when you listen?

The M80 will certainly play VERY loud and can handle a lot of power. From what I know the EP200/300/400 work just fine to power speakers, but at lower volumes fan noise can be an issue.

You might also want to look at QSC(GX), and Tapco/Mackie amps as well. Make sure you get the connections you want on a pro amp, some only have speakon connections where others have connections for all speaker wiring types.

Sorry guys forgot to mention my listening space is 12x14 (living room) which opens up to additional rooms such as the kitchen and hallway. I do realise that exposure to high spl levels over time can result in hearing damage. I watch a lot of music DVDs and tend to watch them at moderately loud levels. Usually -10 to -15 db on the Denon receiver. Music at around -25 to -30db. Sometimes I feel as though the signal sounds compressed or light to moderate clipping at higher levels which leads to ear fatigue. Your probably saying "well it's to loud man" but I believe more power and speakers that can handle it will produce crystal clear detailed music reproduction that will not produce ear fatigue. Does this theory make sense? Would I use RCAs to link the Denon to the external amp? Would the Denon still allow me to control the EQ to the M80's and video processing for movies etc. Can I adjust the output of the external amp to level match with the other speakers? I have only used my receiver as a power source so I'm not quite sure how to configure everything with an external amp. Also, does a rack mount amp need to be mounted in a rack or can it sit in my TV shelf with the other equipment? Sorry for the armature questions, just trying to pre-plan things before I pull the trigger. Thanks for your responses.

Thats a small living room. I would be very surprised if you are reaching amp clipping on your 3808. I'm driving my M80s with a 2808 and have had no such issues in a 12x21 room.

I have listened quite loud at times.

Yes, you can level match the LR channels of your amp with the other speakers. Not sure how Audessey would work in this situation though. You would probably have to level match manually. The rackmount amp can sit on a shelf. Air flow is usually font to back or back to front on pro amps.

A divorce took care of my listening fatigue and cost me less than any of the amps I’ve looked at.

The 3808 and any external amp should result in some very loud playback. I was able to run Audyssey with no problems when I had use of the A1400.

Just upgrading to the M80s over the M60s will give you a little more volume as the 3808 is very robust and can deliver ample power to the 4 ohm M80s.

Hi Demetrios, Perhaps you have a setting on your 3808 that is keeping the volume down. If you have Dynamic Volume turned on then you have to turn up the volume pretty loud for music (at least I feel I need to). You might check to see if there are other settings that might be limiting the output. I'm not a fan of DV so I don't use it but I keep Dynamic EQ turned on because I often listen at lower volumes when other people are around and it works great for that.

-Dave

^^ That's a good suggestion. With such a small room, I'm surprised the 3808 doesn't meet the OP's needs. Maybe he's running the mains full range, so at extreme db levels the Denon is clipping?

Hey, not sure what you mean by "maybe he's running mains in full range" but my settings in Speaker config are as follows
Front-Large
Center-Large
Sub-yes
Surround A-Large
Surround B-No
Sub-woofer Mode-LFE+Main
Crossover set to 80Hz

There is no dynamic volume option on the 3808 and the volume limit is set to off. Room EQ is set to off. Night Mode Off. Not sure if any other selection may altar output. Don't get me wrong, things sound good. I'm just thinking more detailed musical reproduction at higher volume levels can be achieved with an external amp. I've read on this forum how adding more power to speakers can really bring out detail. If you guys think I'm off track then I'll hold off and purchase Oppo Bluray player.
For now I'll check out some Tapco and GSQ amp specs. Would you guys recommend models producing 350w RMS or 450w RMS at .01%THD? In car audio I always provide clean signal with up to 20% more than the RMS rating. Never have I underpowered a speaker in car audio. I've never had a problem with amps or speakers in the 15 yrs I've been building car audio systems. But this is not car audio and I need your help.Thanks for your comments guys. Does anyone have experience with Beringher, Tapco or GSQ pro amps and can vow for the quality. Thanks again.

"Adding more power" doesn't bring out detail; it's meaningless unless it's actually used to make the sound louder, which again, shouldn't be needed in your setup. The 3808/M60 combo should provide the possibility of a horrendously loud sound level already, without more being needed.

This doesn't change the volume, but I'd suggest that you run all your speakers "Small" with the 80Hz crossover and the sub mode LFE only, not "+ Main". Running all your speakers full range, as you're now doing, doesn't let the sub take part of the low bass burden off of the speakers and 3808.

Demetrios, forum member "Zimm" has a QSC(GX series) pro amp pushing his PSB anchored HT. He drops by occasionally so you might want to ask him about this amp...from what I recall, he was very happy with it, both quality/soundwise and pricewise. You might search some of his posts as well for more info too.

I wouldn't be running your VP-150 and your QS8s as "large", you're wasting lots of power sending bass signals to them that they can't produce. And personally, I can't imagine you needing to run your M60s as Large or in LFE+Main modes either, when you have an EP500 sub.

You're not only wasting power, you're losing bass from the center and surround channels because the bass signals that can't be reproduced by those speakers are disappearing rather than being reproduced by your very, very capable sub.

In other words, I think you'll be fine if you set your receiver as recommended.

I meant (and probably should have said) "Large," so try changing it so "Small" as others have suggested.

I did notice a difference in SQ when runing the A1400 with the 3808 over the 3808 alone, was it worth the $ to get an A1400 only when I no longer have other things to spend $3000-$4000 on.

I am interested in trying the pro amps as well to see if they give the same dynamics I heard with the A1400, for some reason I doubt that I will.

FYI, the 3808 has an upgrade available that has the features previously mentioned. You have to call Denon and ask about the feature pack upgrade, pay $100 and then run the update from the options menu.

I notice more seperation in the sounds when running the 3808 with Audyssey than with out depending on the source/music, but I also sometimes notice the bass lacking on some material. Audyssey is not perfect but try rerunning Audyssey and follow the set up routine found on AVS forums for Audyssey, it might help with the SQ you are looking for.

Ok, set all speakers to small and sub mode is set to LFE only. Right off the bat I noticed slightly deeper bass. Nothing too significant but definitely a slight difference depending on the source material. It totally makes sense to allow each speaker to accept the signal within it's optimum range and conserve power from the receiver. Wow! Jakewash if you didn't experience a significant increase in SQ when running the A1400 over the 3808 then I doubt I will achieve my goals using a pro amp with output in the 400 watt RMS range. I now feel like I got schooled by my ex-wife in why I shouldn't spend my money on upgrading electronics. This could be a blessing. I think I may just grab the Oppo BDP-83 and a few blu rays. Thanks for setting me strait guys. I appreciate your feedback!

I didn't say I didn't have a significant increase in SQ, just I feel the differences were not worth the costs involved.

The A1400 did play alot louder and cleaner at these levels No big surprise there. I found the bass was more defined/stronger at nearly all listening volumes and the highs were much more like the 3808 is when I have Audyssey on but better, more blended with the entire sound than what Audyssey affords, it is very hard to describe. Yet when I listened at onn's house I noticed no differences, so it could have been my room dynamics making a difference some how.

I noticed you mentioned a bit about car audio. Just remember with car audio you have a small amount of space to fill with sound so a few hundred watts would be equivalent to a few thousand watts for home audio. I highly suspect very few of us, if any, are willing to spend that kind of money on amps to achieve the same watt/volume efficiency level.

Maybe if you sit 3-4' from the speakers with a major toe in setting you might be able to achieve a similar sound

Chris should use one of the cars he mentioned in that Water Cooler thread as his theater room.

The windshield would almost emulate an IMAX effect when viewd that close.

Ah, to have those problems...

I hope to someday have that kind of problem, unfortunately not in the near or reasonbly distant future I fear.