You are not logged in. [Log In]


Forums » General Discussion » Technical Questions » Biwiring?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#309417 - 06/04/10 08:36 PM Biwiring?
DreamTheater Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 92
Loc: East Haven, CT
What exactly is this supposed to do, and does it produce an audible difference. This is another question I had for a while, decided to finally join a forum and get some answers! I know biamping splits the high and low frequencies from 2 different power units to give more in each frequency, but whats biwiring?
_________________________
M60, VP150, QS8, HSU VTF2-MK 3, Marantz SR8002, Oppo BDP-83SE, 50" Panasonic Plasma

Top
#309420 - 06/04/10 08:54 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: DreamTheater]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
It's designed to make you spend more money on cables.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

Top
#309424 - 06/04/10 10:09 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: DreamTheater]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Erik, I'll agree with Ken's analysis and add a couple points. Supposedly buy-wiring creates some separation of the high and low frequency signals which wouldn't otherwise exist and the big bad low frequency signals don't beat up the "delicate" high frequency signals. This is all nonsense and no audibly meaningful extra separation has been created. Any speaker with separate high and low frequency drivers has to have the signals to the drivers separated in the crossover circuitry. Even when a speaker has a single set of terminals, the wiring splits inside the enclosure to feed full-range signals for processing in the separate high and low frequency sections of the crossover. When buy-wiring(aka bi-wiring)is employed this splitting is simply moved back from inside the enclosure before the crossover to the exit point from the receiver output terminals. This has no significant electrical effect.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#309428 - 06/04/10 10:21 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: JohnK]
DreamTheater Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 92
Loc: East Haven, CT
"buy wiring" hahah. I don't know why but all the guys in the local snobby audiophile stores always used to preach about how that or bi amping was the best thing they did to their systems in "over 30 years". I hear so many weird things in audio, I think most of it is BS to get you to buy or placebo effect. Thanks for the explanation John.
_________________________
M60, VP150, QS8, HSU VTF2-MK 3, Marantz SR8002, Oppo BDP-83SE, 50" Panasonic Plasma

Top
#309438 - 06/05/10 12:07 AM Re: Biwiring? [Re: DreamTheater]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3466
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Bi-amping, is different than bi-wiring... It costs even more.
_________________________
Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#309487 - 06/05/10 02:12 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: ClubNeon]
Griffith Strife Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 64
My receiver is 7.1 but my system is 5.1, so my receiver lets me use the 2 extra outs to bi-amp my fronts. I must say it makes a difference, in certain movies the fronts would strain at the higher volumes. Like Dark Knight the Bat-Pod scene in particular, but once I bi-amped them it never strained again. Would I pay 1000 bucks for a 2 channel amp to bi-amp my fronts? No but for free I am very happy whit it. I could be crazy but I do hear a difference.

P.S

On second thought of course going from 100 watts to 200 watts helps. But I am sure going from 1 200 watts amp to 2 100 watt amps would make no difference


Edited by Griffith Strife (06/05/10 02:17 PM)
Edit Reason: added P.S
_________________________
M80s QS8s VP150 SVS 25-31 Rotel RSX-1560

Top
#309502 - 06/05/10 03:47 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: Griffith Strife]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Actually Griffith you are still only using 100W, but you are now getting 100w for the lower frequencies and 100W for the mids and upper frequencies, it is not a summation of both.

What speakers and avr are you using?

It has been noted on other forums that this simple process has helped some with less efficient speakers and/or less powerfull Amps/Power supplies in their avr's. I myself have not noticed much of a difference with the M80s and Denon 3808, at least when I tried it a few years ago.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

Top
#309523 - 06/05/10 06:10 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
If an amp has a rating of 100w x 2, its not suddenly going to change to 100w x 4 because you add more wires and channels. All the juice still comes from one power supply.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

Top
#309533 - 06/05/10 10:15 PM Re: Biwiring? [Re: Griffith Strife]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Griff, you're not crazy, but whatever you've noticed definitely isn't "bi-amping". The procedure that you followed doesn't double the available power, as your PS implies; the actual power increase is zero. A 7.1 receiver has one amplifier with seven channels of output transistors, not seven separate amplifiers, and you didn't have any "unused" amplifiers. The output transistors in each channel have no power of their own; they act only as valves to let in the required amount of voltage from the one power supply section. Using two sets of "valves"(one previously not connected to a speaker)rather than one can't increase the capacity of the power supply section in any way.

I'll throw out a remote possibility that some of the output transistors for the main channels weren't up to spec and were causing distortion at less than the rated power output. When the output transistors in the back surround channels(up to spec?)were put into use they allowed the rated power to be delivered to the section of the speaker to which they were connected, allowing cleaner reproduction of those frequencies. Again, this is highly unlikely speculation, but if you'd like to try using only the back surround output transistors to see if they alone make a difference, this is easily done. Disconnect the speaker wires from the main output terminals(keeping the receiver in "bi-amp" mode, of course)and replace the connecting links on the speaker terminals so that the the back surround channels(now carrying main channel content, of course)drive both the high and low frequency sections of the speaker.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#309545 - 06/06/10 12:07 AM Re: Biwiring? [Re: jakewash]
Griffith Strife Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 64
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Actually Griffith you are still only using 100W, but you are now getting 100w for the lower frequencies and 100W for the mids and upper frequencies, it is not a summation of both.

What speakers and avr are you using?

It has been noted on other forums that this simple process has helped some with less efficient speakers and/or less powerfull Amps/Power supplies in their avr's. I myself have not noticed much of a difference with the M80s and Denon 3808, at least when I tried it a few years ago.


Hey Jake I am using a rotel rsx 1560 to power the M60 as fronts QS8 as rears and VP150 as the center. I used to have 1056 which was rated 75 watts all driven and the M60s would strain at the higher levels with it too. It was still doing it with the 1560 at 100 watts all channels driven till I did the bi-amp thing I honestly don't know why it helped but it did.



 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Griff, you're not crazy, but whatever you've noticed definitely isn't "bi-amping". The procedure that you followed doesn't double the available power, as your PS implies; the actual power increase is zero. A 7.1 receiver has one amplifier with seven channels of output transistors, not seven separate amplifiers, and you didn't have any "unused" amplifiers. The output transistors in each channel have no power of their own; they act only as valves to let in the required amount of voltage from the one power supply section. Using two sets of "valves"(one previously not connected to a speaker)rather than one can't increase the capacity of the power supply section in any way.

I'll throw out a remote possibility that some of the output transistors for the main channels weren't up to spec and were causing distortion at less than the rated power output. When the output transistors in the back surround channels(up to spec?)were put into use they allowed the rated power to be delivered to the section of the speaker to which they were connected, allowing cleaner reproduction of those frequencies. Again, this is highly unlikely speculation, but if you'd like to try using only the back surround output transistors to see if they alone make a difference, this is easily done. Disconnect the speaker wires from the main output terminals(keeping the receiver in "bi-amp" mode, of course)and replace the connecting links on the speaker terminals so that the the back surround channels(now carrying main channel content, of course)drive both the high and low frequency sections of the speaker.



Fairly easy to do I just unplugged one set from the back and installed the metal bars back. listened with both sets back and forth, the M60s strained at the higher volumes with both sets it was extremely loud though


 Originally Posted By: fredk
If an amp has a rating of 100w x 2, its not suddenly going to change to 100w x 4 because you add more wires and channels. All the juice still comes from one power supply.



I agree completely but I thought if it was rated 100x7 and you used 2 channels to power 1 speaker it would be equal to 200 watts. I understand how I could be wrong, but for whatever reason it helps me out
_________________________
M80s QS8s VP150 SVS 25-31 Rotel RSX-1560

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 
Forum Stats

15,270 Registered Members
16 Forums
24,072 Topics
425,084 Posts

Most users ever online:
883 @ 03/04/17 05:06 PM

Top Posters
Ken.C 18044
pmbuko 16437
SirQuack 13579
CV 11694
MarkSJohnson 11444
1 registered (jmone)
193 Guests and
4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup