Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M22's or M3's?

I had decided getting 3 M22's for my future HT system, but I have read on some post some people stating that the M22's sound is flat ( in a bad way ). Can somebody point me out on the right direction? Help!!!!

I have M80s and M22s. The M22s are not flat at all. They are actually very, very good and becomes most excellent when considering their price. My brother has the M3s and I don't like them much (less clarity).

Hi Ichigo,
Depends on what you're looking for. The M22's will give a more accurate sound but should be paired with a sub to get full range sound. I have the on/in wall version of the M22 (the W22) and they sound amazingly detailed and accurate IMHO. The M3 provides a bit of a 'bump' in the mid bass region making them sound 'fuller' on their own, so could be an interesting option if there's no sub in the equation. That being said, you can probably get the same type of sound from the M22's by boosting your EQ a bit in the right region. My personal choice would be the M22's with a sub. Hope that helps a bit.

Ichigo,

"Flat" can have several meanings. In terms of dimension, the M22s are anything but "flat." With good recordings, they can project a wonderfully 3D soundstage.

"Flat" can also mean "linear", as in a speaker having a flat, smooth frequency response, and that is a compliment. The M22 is very linear and will be brutally revealing of poor CD recordings, and will sound glorious with good recordings.

The M3, as has been pointed out, is not quite as linear or "flat" as the M22, and has a bass hump (boost) that's quite appealing on some recordings because it makes the M3 seem to have more bass output than more linear speakers like the M22 or M2. The M3 is also a bit less detailed in the midrange, so it's more tolerant of lousy recording quality than the M22. My preference is for the M22 with its sparkling detail and wonderful soundstage, but the M3 is a very nice speaker with legions of fans.

Regards,
Alan

I love my M22's, so if your saying flat is a bad thing, not sure of your sources. Alan summed it up well. You will hear things on other forums, especially AVSforum, that has not factual basis.

Both my brother and me own the M3ti's. Personnaly, I've considered a change over to M22 V2's but the thought of parting with M3's has always made me pause and reconsider keeping them. I think that says alot (at least for me) about their performance. That bass hump gives these transducers a very nice level of smoothness and sophisication.

Hi all!

I guess that most people like the M22's the most but the M3's still got it's own legion of fans though. Maybe I should get 2 M22's and 1 M3 so I can choose what sounds more fit to my smal room. Since Axiom provides the 30 days trial. Have any of you used the trial period? I was wondering, since I am going to be ordering from the FO it will take me around for weeks to receive my speakers, but in case I decide to change them will it take another for weeks for me to receive the new one? Thanks in advance for all of you.

The difference is whether or not you like your midrange sound equal/upfront to the bass(M22) or laid back(M3). The M3 actually has a midrange dip that makes the upper bass sound more prominent than the midrange giving the illusion of more bass when in fact it is less midrange.

So in case I have a good sub the illusion of more bass on the M3's would not make any difference then. Is that right?

Ichigo, if you have a decent sub, in my opinion I'd be looking at the M22's.

Well I will be getting a EP350, would you consider it decent? LOL

Yes!!

You made the correct move by choosing the EP350. I personally wouldn't even consider any of their subs below it. The 350 should do very, very well in the room that you have described in your other threads.

Cool looking avatar btw. Who is that a picture of?

Thanks for your help!!!

Hello Dr.House! My avatar is Ichigo Kurosaki when he transformed in a hollow. This is from Japanese anime Bleach. For the ones who likes anime I would personally recommend this one.

Dean and CV have either watched it or will be now that you have recommended it.

The M22 + EP350 will give you all the sound of the M60 and deeper bass. I think that would be an excellent combination.

A little late to this thread, but I'll chime in anyway. I have both the M3s and the M22s. I bought the M3s first (a blind buy, for my son) and loved them. I went with the M3s beause he does not have a sub. After hearing the M3s I wanted to upgrade my speakers, and since I couldn't very well have the same speakers as my son I got the M22s. I was amazed at how much difference there was between the two. I had assumed the difference would be slight, I was wrong. I definitely liked the M22s better. They seemed "cleaner"; which was probably the lack of the mid-range bumb some people mentioned. I'm using the M22s with a sub, but I did the comparison with the sub off.

Thanks for you help. I had already made my mind though. I am going with 3 M22's for front speakers as some of the forum members have suggested on my other thread. Since I got a got entry level sub which would be the EP350 I think I will be fine with this system.

Good choice. But I'm curious, why the M22 instead of the VP100 for the center channel?

3 identical speakers across the front gives the best sound. All 3 speakers are perfectly matched.

The advantage is you get better horizontal dispersion with a vertically oriented center channel and when using the exact same speaker you get the exact same sound from the center as the mains, not a similarily good sound as with the VP100/150. The differences are minor when comparing the VP series to the M22 but they are there.

Fred said it all. I don't understand too much about the subject so our fellow forum members have advised me on that. So this is the reason why I got 3 M22's for front and 2 QS8's for the surround.

Well, only if they are positioned in the room exactly the same way

picky, picky, picky. :P

Unless its a square room...

Can you put round speakers in a square room?

Yes, but only if the diameter is less than the doorway width.

Geez, just put them in sideways! It'll flatten out the response too.

Okay, well I don't agree. They make the center channels to be timbre matched with the other speakers. Using the M22 as a center means it's going to be radically off the horizontal listening access. (Unless you're mounting it behind a sonically transparent projection screen. Then never mind.) On the other hand, the center channels are made to disperse the sound horizontally; and you can also more easily angle it a few degrees up or down.

Speaker makers attempt to timbre match their centers to their mains. An identical speaker will be identical in timbre.

Vertical speakers naturally have better horizontal dispersion. Center channels are designed to be wide to attempt to get the same dispersion characteristic.

Yes, centers do have a slightly better vertical dispersion (for the same reason vertical speakers have a good horizontal). But there's no reason an M22 can't be angled to fire more directly at ear level (the left and right may also benefit from being angled up or down if they can't be placed at ear level).

Center channels speakers are all about design compromises because most people don't have room to place a full hight speaker above or below their display. I have just enough room for a VP150, I can't even fit a VP180 into my setup. But if I ever go to a projection system, I'm surely making room for an M22, if not an M80 for my center.

I agree with all you said Chris (and you said it better than I did). It's just the final conclusion where I seem to be the outcast - my feeling is that unless he has a projection system, the limitation of the M22 (limited vertical dispertion) outweighs the plus (identical timbre).

How much vertical dispersion is needed? An M22 with it's top edge flush with the bottom of the display angled up slightly shouldn't have any problem. I just don't have even that much room, my VP150 covers the Pioneer logo on the bezel of my display.

Well I am a mere spectator on this discussion. I just take the advices.

It might help to provide better advice, if you could describe where you'll be placing the speakers. How high is your display? How much room do you have under it? How do you plan to position your main left and right speakers?

Most people do not need vertical dispersion when the speakers are placed within a reasonable close proximity of the ideal, tweeters at ear level, but everyone can certainly use horizontal dispersion for proper stereo imaging or off axis listening.

Well this is something I will need help. My room is small as it has been said on the other post. It's size is 11.5L x 9W x 9.8H. I can put my display in any height needed, since I will be getting some kind of customized rack or anything else needed to take the tv to the right spot. This room will be only for leisure time so besides the home theater system it will have my piano and a small desk only. I haven't decided yet if I am going to keep the display very low using my actual couch ( Japanese style, so it is almost like seating on the floor), in this case I was wondering if I could keep the speakers right on the floor. Will that be okay? The QS8's are going to be wall mounted. As I said this is my initial idea, since I have no prior experiences on HT setting up I was gonna ask for forum members help on this matter. As you can see I have a small room, but free to be worked around.

The mains and center could easily be left on the floor, I ran my M22s on the floor for a few years, just be sure to install the rubber 'feet' on the bottom to isolate them from the floor. I had run my M22's right on the floor and then added the 'feet' much later and the difference in bass response was noticeable, in a good way

Cork, the concept behind a vertically configured speaker(especially Dr. D'Appolito's vertical MTM design)is to minimize undesirable vertical dispersion and to maximize horizontal dispersion. Horizontally configured speakers generally get it backwards, but may be selected because of aesthetic considerations or vertical space limitations.

I don't want to pretend I have knowledge of design characteristics - I don't. My opinions are based on accumlated reading and one small personal example. And that example is for a short while I had one M22 about 2 feet higher than the other. During that time the "sound field" was noticeably distorted. If I had a right and left even with my screen and a center offset by the amount necessary to get it above or below the monitor, I think the sound would appear equally as distorted. Using the horizontal brings the offest more into alignment. And I think all that really ties back to your qualification of possible using a horizontal speaker due to vertical space limitations; if I were using a screen, I'd definitely get the three matched.

Now the OP seems as if he's putting them all on the floor, so no problems there. He might want to consider stands that tilt the speaker up a few degrees.

I hope I'm not coming off argumentative here, I'm enjoying the discussion and picking up more info.

I believe the options for tilting the speakers up, are hockey pucks, or Auralex pads:

MoPAD: http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_mopad/sound_isolation_mopad.asp
SpeakerDudes: http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_speakerdudes/speakerdudes.asp

Should I use the pads on the M22's only or on the sub too?

Just the M22s. The low frequencies from subs arepretty much non-directional; so no need.

Can I use something like this?

What are they made of? They also seem a bit high. It idea is to get the speakers pointing directly at your ears. Since you'll be sitting close to the floor, and the speakers will be on the floor, you'll probably only need a couple degrees of tilt.

Flat on the floor really shouldn't hurt either. It's just a ten tenths thing. Trying to get that last little bit of performance.

Those sure are purdy hockey pucks!

They look like the columns of ice that were supporting the crystal fortress that I owned back when I was dating Regina.

Those are made of Quartz. They sell it over here to be used as support for speakers just like the Auralex pads.

There is also this one!:)

The heights of these are around 1 to 2 cm.

They usually advice on using an audio board below these. So you can customize it to the right height needed.