Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater upgrading my pre/pro or receiver

Good day

It's getting time that I updgrade my Rotel RSP1066. It has no HDMI and limited base management.

I am looking for a reasonably priced pre/pro or would even consider a reciever with 7.1 pre outs so I can use my power amplifer.

I have been eyeing the Denon AVR-990. But I am open to recommendations. Price is always an issue. I don't have a set budget but keeping it below $1000 mark is desirable.

I have a 4000 cubic foot room so I'd like to keep the power amplifer to do most of the heavy lifting, at least for the L C R.

I do enjoy opening the volume up and letting the M80's sing once in a while.

Thanks in advance for you help!

Paul

I don't think you're going to get a worthy processor in that price range (but I'm just not willing to entertain the patience necessary to make the Emotiva work). I've had good luck with Onkyo refurbs, like the TX-NR3007 at accessories4less for US$999. I think that's the same receiver Dean has now, and it's pretty darn feature rich. You can get the same unit directly from Onkyo for $100 more, but I think it includes the shipping. I never know which vendors might be preferable for Canadians.

a4less also has the 1007 for $749, which might meed your needs; I haven't studied the differences enough to be useful.

I think you're right to retain your Rotel for primary amplification duties.

Hi tomtuttle,
Please, could you elaborate on your above remark ? It was a product which I was seriously considering.

Many thanks !

I’m quite happy with my Onkyo TX-NR3007. Took a little to adjust to the Onkyo way of doing things from the Denon way but in the end the functionality is the same just how you get there. As Tom says if your plan is simply to use this as a preamp then the 1007 should do the job I’d just compare the features to make sure you’re getting what you need.

As far as the Emo I’d stay very far away from any pre-amp they offer. From what I’ve read all of the UMC-1’s problems can not be fixed via firmware. The bass management in inherently flawed and it does not do true HDMI pass-through if you want that feature. These two things and possible others will not change.

I’m a Denon advocate, so my opinion is biased. They are a feature rich receiver and have been very reliable with few to zero bugs. I hate dealing with bugs and have found that Denon has fewer than other brands. Also, the Denon GUI on their mid to higher level receivers is excellent. So having said that, the 991 is quite a machine for the price. Unfortunately, it does not have pre-outs. You need to move up to the 3311 to get pre outs. If you want to stick with Denon, the 3311 is the one that I would buy, considering your price point. The 991 and 3311 are sister receivers with the 3311 adding some custom installer type functions. Be warned though, neither have independent sub calibration capabilities despite having two sub pre outs. They have a mirror operation. I am hopeful that Denon will add a receiver with all the features of the 3311 plus dual sub calibration capabilities and the ability to use both height and width speakers simultaneously. At least that’s why I have not moved from my 3808 yet.

You are SOL on finding a pre at your price point unless you are OK with buying used.

JC, I haven’t kept up on all the issues and fixes so if someone else doesn’t post more information I suggest reading the most recent posts in this thread to see what the present status of the UMC-1 is assuming that was the Emo pre-amp you were considering.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1218226&highlight=emotiva

JC, Dean basically hit the high points.

My personal trust in Emotiva to deliver a product of this complexity has eroded. My opinion is that a processor requires so much corporate collaboration with other major players (Dolby, THX, chip manufacturers, etc.) that any company trying to bring forth such a product must have quite large operating scale. The design, integration, research, development, QA, and sourcing for a processor take so much more effort than the actual production. I don't want to bash Emotiva, because I honestly have great respect for the people, what they are trying to do and their business model. It's just that they took YEARS to bring the UMC-1 to market, and it still isn't "right" according to too many users.

It's going to be embarrassing if Chris's pre-pro ends up working better than Emotiva's.

And it'll be cheap too, since he's setting up manufacturing in Romania...

Not necessarily. I purchased my factory sealed Denon 3311ci from an authorized vendor (jr.com) for well under his price point. You just need to call them and ask for a discount.

With the history of Emotiva amps shutting down when driving M80's, I would recommend another brand. It is possible they have worked out their issues with their built in limiter gizmo and they did everything they could to resolve my issues, I would still consider other options. If we all remember, they blamed Axiom claiming it was the problem with the M80's dipping to 1ohm. Even if this was true, even for a brief moment at any one frequency, the amp should still not shut down.

*note - mps 1 amp was the one I had issues with...

I am not a fan of Emotiva or the UMC-1 for that matter and the way this product has been handled. For what it is worth, I would never do business with them. However, I don't think they ever claimed the M80's dipped down to 1 ohm. That would be something though if they did. I have seen some claims on the Emotiva board that they dip down to slightly less than 3 ohms (2.7?). I don't know whether it was version 1 or 2.

I wish I knew how to have manufacturing done in Romania. But that isn't really a thing they're known for. Actually, PCB manufacturing and assembly will be done in the US, from mostly Chinese made parts (but some of the smaller components are built in the US).

I drive my M80's with an Emo DMC-1 pre/pro and MPS-1 7 channel amp and have never shut down. I, like Jc, have been eyeing the UMC-1 for a while. I have not, however, done much homework into whatever issues are being had with the unit (I'll go back and read the avs thread at some point). The only issue I have with the DMC is the lack of HDMI connections. The UMC would solve it. Couple that with EMO's 40% discount for existing owners and it becomes quite attractive. The one downfall I see with the unit is the lack of XLR connections for outputs to the amp - it only has an XLR connection for the sub.

Just my $0.02.

I was referring to a PRE / AMP, not an AVR. The OP is asking for input on a pre/amp or receiver with pre outs.

I do not know of any pre with all the features and HDMI processing he is looking for under a grand - new. But I haven't looked that hard either, so I may be totally off base.

Tom- I couldn't agree with you more, which is why the big boys tend to have fewer bugs than the little guys nowadays. With HDMI, a lot more testing needs to be done that has nothing to do with audio or video processing, but ensuring that devices talk to each other to verify the user isn't stealing or using pirated media (and this costs big money). This is an unfortunate new set of rules that has nothing to do with build quality or performance where the smaller companies used to trump the larger companies.

There was a period where HDMI compatibility involved a lot of verification and testing, but the newest generation of receiver/transmitter chips eliminate most of that. The new chips have all the handshaking routines built into them, there's no timing that has to be done by the host. All the host has to do is wait for the indication that a signal is ready and start reading it. All the HDCP is automatically done in the chip, and even the keys are pre-programmed.

But seeing how long Emo had their pre/pro in production it probably isn't based around the newest chips (the just released 1.3 and all 1.4 chips).

The statement came right from the owners mouth to me over the phone. They claimed to have some M80V2's in their lab at the time and reported the 1ohm dip to me. Also, the topic has come up often on AVSforum.

classic,

It is possible your MPS-1 does not have the issues mine did, however, Lonnie from Emo replaced many of my mono's in the mps-1, had me try so called bi-amping, and even wanted me to do surgery to the limiter circuitry on the amp board, to resolve the issues. After 3 months, they just gave me my full money back. If most of you recall, I wasn't even playing music or movies that loud when the amps would kick into shutdown defcon 5.

That's pretty messed up sirquack. Even more so if you had the M80's set to "small" and explained this to them. Was this the case and what was the XO point you were using between the mains and sub?

Tomtuttle and Grunt,
Thanks for the info on the Emotiva preamp/processor! Not an easy task to design and buiild a pre/pro - ask Outlaw Audio they had to cancel the one they were planning based on the Newcastle R-972.

a401classic,
I had pre-ordered one and at the time mine was available they honestly informed me that there was a bug which could be fixed with a firmare update down the road. They offer me the option to get it then or they would contact me again when it would be resolved. I have not heard back from them yet.

I held out for as long as I could hoping that the Newcastle R-972 would show up hear at Axiom for sale. I followed it closely and many were waiting for Axiom to start selling it as an assurance that it was in fact ready for primetime.

I guess what I don't understand is why a good quality pre/pro is so much more expensive than an AVR. I simply want the AVR without the amps. This should be cheaper, not more expensive. I mean a lovesteat is ususlly cheaper than the full sofa!

I really wasn't interested in the Emo, for many of the reasons stated here. It is too new and not many 3rd paty unbiased reviews on it.

I can get he Denon 990 at Futureshop for $1099 plus taxes, it has the necessary pre-outs I am looking for. Where can I find a 3311 in Canada as BB and FS don't carry them.

Thanks

Paul

Paul, I think it's simply economy of scale. The manufacturers sell WAY more receivers than they would pre-pros, and it's a much more competitive market.

I suppose you are right asumming they need to redesign a new unit, but all I want is Denon to take a 990 or 3311 and not put the amplifers in it. Then sell it for a couple of hundred dalllars less. Instant Pre/Pro at a very compeitive price. I can't believe ther is no markt for this.

p

Paul, you should be able to find the 3311 at your nearest Audio Video Unltd(my first choice), Trutone in Mississauga(Dundas Str), Bay Bloor Radio(T.O.), or East Hamilton Radio amongst others.

I'm with you on this, though I would still want XLRs over RCAs. Still, most of the hardware/software would be exactly the same.

Me three, y'all.

A new vette runs about 50K. An RS1 model vette is about 100K. It's about custom, extra bells and whistles, higher end components, better performance, etc. Pre-pro's typically are not marketed to folks who are looking at Yugos, so they build them to satisfy the whim of folks who tend to drive luxury imports. Some of the added fluff in pre's is justifiably priced, some not, some questionable. And yes, I know, the car verses electronics analogy doesn’t fit very well and we can argue about all day long. I make it because the point is one that most with a reasonable demeanor can relate to.

Chris - I'll believe it when I see it and live it. I'm sure that the latest chip sets make life easier, but refuse to believe all the problems have simply been resolved by means of a new chipset. HDMI 1.5, then 2.0, then 2.5, then wireless, then whatthehellever will come out and each one will come with its own back of crap that gets all over everything. I think I'd rather believe in the tooth fary.... Did I mention I hate computers?? Sorry for the rant. I'm done.

If you act quickly you can get the 990 much cheaper than that. I would have purchased one myself but I don't need it.

Canada computers is a trusted seller...I have purchased from them in the past. They have a local outlet in London too...only one listed in stock there but they have plenty listed in the online stock...shipping to you shouldn't be much.

$649.99

Seriously considering changing my sig line to "whatthehellever"

Thanks, Mike! You totally made my day.

Randy, you and I have been over this topic several times. I also had to have an amp module swapped, but not for shut down reasons. The main reason for my posts on this topic is only to offer that not everyone with Emo amps has trouble driving M80's, although it seems I'm in the minority. I have a theory on this, but zero evidence to back it up. So to that end I will agree that those considering Emo amps for M80's should be cautious when selecting.

Scott

Hey Lorenzo, I never thought to check Canada Computers when I picked up my receiver. They are a good outfit. They tend to hire university geeks so the people in the store actually have more than a bit of a clue about the stuff they are selling. I buy most of my computer stuff there.

Lots of IT people do to, sort of. Computers do all sorts of wierd stuff, mostly because the people setting them up don't quite understand what they are doing.

I think your analogy is apt. Maybe 15 or 20 years ago pre pros offered something unique, but technology marches on and last year's leading edge is this year's ho-hum.

Scott, you're not the only one. I am enjoying the my M80's more than ever since adding UPA-1's!

Pitbull24,

The more clean amount of power you feed your M80s with . . . greater will be their performance and your . . . reward / pleasure / enjoyment ! ! !

So I took a print out of the Canada Computers AVR-990 add with me to Futureshop today, and after the sales guy made the call to verify the model number they matched the price!

Nothing against CC, the are a good store with cool products, FS has better price protection and return policy.

The sales guy couldn't belive the price though. Less then half the sugested list price.

I am now the proud owner of a Denon AVR-990!

A pretty inexpensive pre/pro I figure.

paul

That's one heck of a deal, Paul.

Awesome Paul...Congrats on the new toy. I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

I only heard about it because I follow Red Flag Deals...it's a great site to look at if you're looking to buy something you need...or just empty out your wallet!!!

JC, if the M80s are 90db efficient, and it takes 3 wpc actual output to produce 90 db in a hypothetical room environment, why would an amplifier capable of putting out 1000 watts sound better than an amplifier capable of putting out 20 watts per channel without clipping if either is only called upon to produce 90 db.

CV

Why would you want balanced over RCA?

Unless you have long cable runs, what is the difference?

Paul

Lorenzo1000

That is a handy site (Red Flag Deals).

Thanks again for the tip.

It makes me wonder though, why CC is selling a unit like this. When I called the London store to confirm the model number they said it was in the basement because they don't sell too many of these things.

I bet the staff doesn't have much training, if any, on the features of this model.

Paul

Some amps behave better when fed a balanced signal. For example Outlaw's multi-channel amps have a lower gain (and thus less noise) when using their XLR connectors. When running monoblocks, it does make sense to locate the amp as close to the speaker as possible (better damping), so one will have longer signal cables. Plus, well designed equipment will have the signal ground separate from the chassis (safety) ground (Axiom's subs do this when you remove the ground screw), which goes a long way in preventing ground loops.

Plus, XLR is just a more robust connector. RCA was never designed for external, component to component connections.

What Chris said.

I like the connection more, and I've had less of an issue with noise.

OK, so I have got just about every thing organized and hooked up to the new Denon AVR-990. Had a chance to listen to a little DVD Audio, CD and Phono, just really testing if it works. So far sounds great and since I am going HDMI, I have enough left over cables to build my own R2D2.

So I told my buddy about the $649 deal at CC and price matching at Futureshop. He asks me if I would pick one up for him, (we are in the process of building an HT room in this basement).

So I go to FS, a different one as I was on a business trip today.

I show up and ask if they have any of the 990's in stock

Sales Ass (ociate), says yes, two in a box.

I say great, I'll take one and take the printed add from CC out of my pocket to show him, before I can get it unfolded he asks, if that was from Canada Computers. I say yes, he says they sold two already this morning because of it.

I then remember the FS has a policy to give 10% of the difference on any advertized price that is lower than theirs. So I ask if I can get the additional 10% of the difference on this purchase (about $45.00 plus tax).

And with a straight face, no kidding here, he says "no, because this is already below our cost". I try to keep a straight face, and say, your policy doesn't say that. He then says right, but CC is not a company we do direct price matching with. I am now stunned at the two very lame anserwers I have just gotten. I asked if there is a list of companies that they do price matching with, he says no. Then he tells me that this could be a doorcrasher at CC and they only have limited qty. I look at the add and tell him that it doesn't say that, I also tell him the FS also has limited quantity, and that they are supposed to have people to watch the market to ensure they offer the lowest price. He is starting to get frustrated and a little annoyed at me at this point, I then ask him what is the point of having a 10% policy if it can never be used. Anyway this goes on for about 10 minutes back and forth all the time I can see he is getting angry. I finally looked at him and said, I could just as easily walk out right now and buy it from CC, so give me a reason to buy from you. He looked at his computer screen for about 30 seconds, gritted his teath and said "FINE, DONE!" I said thank you. I then told him I wasn't trying to be a jerk, just wanted his store to honor the policy. he didn't reply.

I think he was so mad that he didn't even ask me if I wanted the extended waranty, which was fine by me.

Usually they take the box up to the front for you and even to your car, I got no offer for this service today. Again fine by me.

Just thought I'd share my exciting time at FS today.

Enjoy

paul

In my experience, Futureshop and Best Buy in Canada have been doing anything to not match prices lately. Sounds like they have become victims of their own policies...wouldn't be surprised if they made some changes to their price matching rules soon.

I had problems with BB years ago with their "selective" price matching. The local BB in Brampton refused to price match an advertisement for a DVD in the Toronto Sun at a well known music store. They told me they wouldn't match it because the seller wasn't on their "list" and they said I wouldn't likely drive downtown to buy the CD. I told them to shove the DVD and their phoney price match policy(after a lengthy argument) and went to a nearby FS which DID price match the DVD after calling the store downtown to verify the price and that they had it in stock. Go figure, FS is owned by BB...they need to get their stories straight.

I am seriously considering the Yamaha RX-V667 and completely ignoring its amplifier section. It has pre-outs for external power amps (not XLR though) and the price is US$550-ish. (Google Shopping found it going for $375 but datavis.com does not have a good score on resellerratings.)

See also a review and an AVS thread.

I think michael_d had decent luck with a similar setup for a while. Only things I'd check are the room correction and the bass management. If the room correction stuff is important to you, make sure you are comfortable with the comparisons between the proprietary ones (YPAO, MCACC) and Audyssey (available on the Onkyo and Denon). Also, when I was looking at receivers a while back, the Yamaha did not allow me to set independent crossovers for the L/R, Center, surround, etc. I have found the independent crossover frequencies important with my M60's and QS8's.