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#32052 - 01/26/04 07:55 PM Sound Imaging
tinfoilhat Offline
local

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 206
Loc: BC
I was replying to another post about audition CDs and I started thinking about a cut off the Lyle Lovett CD "Joshua Judges Ruth". There is a moment on one of the songs where an instrument is clearly heard to the left of the left front speaker. I assume that this is an auditory illusion, after all, how can the sound come from there, but I have no idea how that happens. Anyone?

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#32053 - 01/26/04 07:59 PM Re: Sound Imaging
oldskoolboarder Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/25/03
Posts: 2185
Loc: Menlo Park, CA
What track is that? I was also thinking about the same thing. Perhaps people can suggest tracks/CDs (any genre) that demonstrate impressive imaging from 2 channel.

I had a person demo a few months ago and he gave me a copy of a demo CD he got at an HT show. It had a great demo track of a drum solo that had unbelieveable imaging. You could feel him hit the different drums on his set, even feel the position of the drums. I'm curious what musical tracks could show this off too.

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#32054 - 01/26/04 08:11 PM Re: Sound Imaging
tinfoilhat Offline
local

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 206
Loc: BC
I'm at work, but I think the song is "North Dakota". I have other CDs where you can hear this, but that was the only one that came to mind. When I get home I'll try to find it, if the kids let me get on the system that is.

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#32055 - 01/26/04 08:20 PM Re: Sound Imaging
sidvicious02 Offline
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Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
Pearl Jam, fittingly since the Binaural album have recorded their albums binaurally - which is likely what's causing the effect you're talking about. Their latest - Riot Act is very well mastered.
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#32056 - 01/26/04 08:44 PM Re: Sound Imaging
Haoleb Offline
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Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
could also be a thing called "Q sound"

you can hear some Q sound on Roger Waters "Amused to Death". the first track just a couple seconds in, y ou hear a dog barking in the next yard over to the far left. also some other neat tricks on there
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#32057 - 01/26/04 10:01 PM Re: Sound Imaging
tinfoilhat Offline
local

Registered: 07/26/02
Posts: 206
Loc: BC
I don't think this album was recorded with any "tricks". At any rate, I was mistaken about the song. The track I hear this effect the most is the last one, "She makes me feel good". The sound stage is definitely much broader than the speakers. Is it reflection off the sidewalls?
On a side note, sure was great to listen to this album again. The man is the real thing.

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#32058 - 01/26/04 10:49 PM Re: Sound Imaging
ravi_singh Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1351
Loc: Montreal
as well, there is another album I have by a 'popular' band (NIN) and several tracks give an amazing illusion of being surrounded by sound, although you're only listening to two speakers (in my case, M22's).

I love that feeling

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#32059 - 01/27/04 12:37 PM Re: Sound Imaging
oldskoolboarder Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/25/03
Posts: 2185
Loc: Menlo Park, CA
if i recall correctly, isn't the "Q Sound" a gimmick recording? Don't think that would be a fair test...

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#32060 - 01/27/04 07:05 PM Re: Sound Imaging
Saturn Offline
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
When I listen to 2 stereo music I always feel like I'm surrounded by sound and feel like I'm there. Don't all you guy get the same effect?
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#32061 - 01/27/04 07:15 PM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
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Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Maggies are especially good at doing that, but my M22s are also great at throwing a soundstage much wider than they are physically positioned. I often hear sounds coming from beyond the left and right walls in my living room.

Part of that effect is reflections from the walls, but I have a feeling most of it is on the source. If you set up a pair of mics in front of a band, and one of the instruments is far to the left of both mics, then the closer mic will pick up a stronger signal than the further mic.

When you hear that recording played back on a good system, the interplay between the different sound waves from that instrument should recreate its spatial relationship to the other instruments in the band.
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#32062 - 01/28/04 12:33 AM Re: Sound Imaging
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
if you want a good cd for demoing, anything. get the Mapleshade music festival sampler.

unfortunatly my favorite track on there (cant remember what its called) the singer is obviosly moving his body when hes singing, which in turn moves his voice back and fourth on the soundstage. but thats what happens when you record with only a couple of mikes and no mixing or nothin

The soundquality is probbly a 5 out of 5 on most tracks,after listening to the usual suspects pop that disc in there and a haze will lift from the sound. Even if the music isint really your favorite, you can really hear what the speakers could sound like with a good recording.
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#32063 - 02/04/04 12:45 AM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
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Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Just listened to my brother's copy of The Waifs - Up All Night. Excellent CD with great imaging.

I switched my M22s to large and turned off the sub because I'm doing an audition of the Cambridge Soundworks Newton M80s tomorrow and I wanted to refresh my "audio memory" as well as possible. With acoustic material on a well-mastered disc, the M22s are the best speaker I've ever heard. (I can say that not having heard the M60 or M80 .)

Those CSWs need to be damn good to leave a good impression on me now.


Edited by pmbuko (02/04/04 12:52 AM)
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#32064 - 02/04/04 07:46 AM Re: Sound Imaging
tonygeno Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/11/02
Posts: 149
Loc: America's Hometown
A word of caution. Aural memory is notoriously short and unreliable. In addition, rooms have a much greater effect on the sound than many people realize. Thus, I'm not sure how well you'll be able to judge the CSW against the M22: different environment with different electronics. That's why Axiom offers a 30 day MBG and Cambridge offers a 45 day MBG.

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#32065 - 02/04/04 01:56 PM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
I'm aware that audio memory is very short (which is my I said "as well as possible"). When I listened to my M22s this morning, it was mainly for the purpose of noting passages that are especially good for testing bookshelf speakers sans sub.

I've also considered just buying the CSW M80s with the intent of returning them the very next day. (I believe CSW's liberal return policy is their in-home audition program.) That would allow for the best evaluation. I might actually do it if I don't feel the store's listening room is revealing enough for my tastes.

Incidentally, the CDs and tracks I've picked out for this test are:
  1. Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds, Live at Luther College - (6) Crash Into Me
  2. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Nocturama - (2) He Wants You
  3. Tom Waits, Mule Variations - (11) Picture in a Frame
  4. The Randy Newman Songbook Vol. 1 - (3) Louisiana 1927
  5. The Waifs, Up All Night - (6) Highway One
And the reasons for each are:
  1. This is a classic speaker test track. I know what an acoustic guitar and male vocals sound like live. The recording captures the space of the auditorium well, especially when the crowd cheers.
  2. This is a very well recorded CD. Nick Cave has haunting vocals full of emotion. I picked this track especially because of his voice, a 'lazy and flowing' piano, and a brushed drum kit.
  3. You gotta love Tom Waits. I picked this track because it uses a sloghtly detuned piano and is recorded in a way that makes it seem slightly ambient yet still right there in the room. It's a weird effect that my M22s really convey well.
  4. Randy Newman is a genius. This CD contains raw songs -- just the man and his piano. All the tracks are good but I picked this one because I'm more familiar with it than the others.
  5. This is my new favorite CD. This track features female vocals and some great acoustic guitar work. It will be a great test of the upper-mid capabilities of the speakers.
And there you have it.
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#32066 - 02/04/04 09:36 PM Re: Sound Imaging
emiburke Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 27
pmbuko, I saw in the auditions thread you're in Oakland, so I thought you might be talking about the SF csw store. that's where I picked up mine, and the in-store presentation was not good at all... In fact, at the time, they didn't even have any in the demo rooms and the M80's are just sitting in the shelf in the main store area. they sounded lousy in the store, but better at home. They actually sell the Newton line at Fry's now and that actually seems like a better place to demo, assuming it's not crowded and noisy. altough that's more south bay.

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#32067 - 02/04/04 10:09 PM Re: Sound Imaging
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
I gotta disagree on Tom Waits. I just find him really painful to listen to when he's attempting to sing. That combined with a detuned piano sounds like it would be really painful. Now all you Tom Waits fans can flame me.

Yeah, I would just buy the things on credit. Remember how I had 30 days to return the Ensemble 3s I bought... while drunk?
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#32068 - 02/05/04 02:39 AM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
I cannot take music criticism from anyone who like "The Swingle Singers" seriously...

Take that!
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#32069 - 02/05/04 02:41 AM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
My review is posted here.
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#32070 - 02/05/04 04:07 AM Re: Sound Imaging
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
In reply to:

I cannot take music criticism from anyone who like "The Swingle Singers" seriously...




Ouch!



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#32071 - 02/05/04 05:58 PM Re: Sound Imaging
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
Hey, at least they can sing in clear voices that don't sound like they gargle gravel. And groove (not that I'm saying Tom Waits can't. But he can't sing.) So there :-P
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#32072 - 02/08/04 01:09 AM Re: Sound Imaging
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
I went to Amoeba Music in SF today and picked up a couple CDs. One was Dutoit's Holst The Planets (recommended by JohnK and spiffnme) and the other was Josh Ritter's Hello Startling. If you like acoutic music and great songwriting, you have to give Josh Ritter a listen. The dude's amazing.

The reason I'm posting here is that track 10 on the Ritter album, Baby That's Not All, puts an electric piano directly to the left and right of where I was sitting. I kept looking at my surrounds and double-checking that my receiver was in direct stereo mode multiple times during the song. What's funny is it sounds completely natural. When I stared at my M22s during the song, it was as if they saying to me, "What? You're still surprised after all this time?"
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