Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Newbie needs advice; M2, M3, or ELT (sorry so long

First, I want to say I am very impressed with Axiom's products and great customer service. Noreen has been very good to work with. Thanks to Joe for answering some of my questions already.

My dilemma is this; I bought the M22s, VP100, QS4s and pr of FMBs earlier this month, no sub yet. I've already returned the M22s b/c they were too tall for my wife!!! She didn't care they were AWESOME sounding speakers!! She cares only for aesthetics!!! Can you believe this?

So, I've had to start my decision making process all over again. Our living room is 12' x 19' and preference will be 50/50, music and movies. The speakers will have to be wall mounted in the corners of the 19' wall, TV in the middle. Receiver is Onkyo 601.

I currently have the following for in-house demo; M2s, M3s, and Rocket ELT-LRS. Each sounds great doing different things. Obviously, the M3s sound great w/out a sub. Great as stand alone speakers for music, lack some detail for movies, comparitively speaking. They have a full sound that is very nice.

The M2s are more clear in the highs, although not as good as M22s, and lack in the bottom end. They sound good for music and movies. With a sub I'm sure they will sound better. If I had to decide between M3 or M2, I'd choose the M2s. (If same tweeter, why does M2 sound more clear?)

The ELTs add a different dimension. I think they are more bright, with added clarity, than the M2s. However, they lack bass even more than the M2s; still no sub. (With sub will it matter?) I watched Seabiscuit with each pair along with the VP100. (Which is a very good center.) I noticed details with the ELTs that I missed with the others. For music, they do a decent job, with the bass turned up. Also, they have nice cherry stained birch wood veneers. They look really great.

When I received my M2s, the finish was not as good as the M22s, i.e. small place where vinyl is loose on corner. I called Axiom and talked to Joe and said they'd be willing to replace them. I wanted to wait to make sure I will keep them. This incident led me to thinking about what happens if the vinyl veneer gets damaged, how is it fixed? How durable is the finish? Will it withstand years, 10-15, of service? When I mount the speakers with FMBs, with the finished rub off at all?

I am stuck at a crossroad between the M2 and ELT. The M2 is the best compromise, I think. The ELT's finish is better, along with being a bit brighter and clearer. Will I get tired to listening to music through the ELTs? (I realize this is Axiom's message board, thanks for letting me post.)

BTW, if I stick with the M2s, I will upgrade to QS8s and probably VP150. If I go with ELT, will get whole package minus sub.

I am still deciding on the sub. More than likely will be HSU. Not sure between STF-2 or VTF-2 MKI/MKII. I don't want to have to go through the growing pains of a first production run. Plus, I missed the 10% off coupon at CompUSA. VTF-2 is probably the way to go, tried and true. Will this be the last USA made box sub HSU offers? Heard VTF-2 MKII will be made in China like the STFs. No big deal except when production issues emerge. ELTs are PRC made too.

Thanks for reading this post, look forward to comments.

As for bookshelves, it's a tough take. do a blind test and pick the one that SOUNDS best to you.

buy the HSU - you can't go wrong. %10 off is always welcome.

don't wrack your brain over this. just listen and pick best.

Aggie, I don't have personal info on the ELTs. Possibly the only member here who's compared them is Curtis .

Actually, I have auditioned the ELT and was impressed with the entire setup...the sub they offer with it (front firing) WILL move some air but I would suggest using it in a smaller room (such as yours) as the room I heard it in was a huge workspace...TOO much room for it to fill but in a more constrained space it would work well...especially if you are concerned about size and finish...Have not seen or heard the HSU...DO own a SVS 20-39 PC+...

The entire ELT package is made for HT...however I was impressed with its ability for music. From spending time at the Rocket site earlier in my research, it was said the ELT will mellow out over time (either your ears getting used to the sound or the other stance).

They DO look nice and if the wife is concerned on size as well as finish, they may be the easiest road for great sound with good looks...not trying to take money out of Axiom's pocket mind you...I just ordered the M60's, the VP150 and a set of M22's...

Just my .02 from personal experience...

WhatFurrer

IMHO you should always purchase the speaker that sounds best on music without a sub.

Birdman

PS - Meaning you can add the sub as an enhancement, but if you want/need to listen to music without a sub, which is the most demanding application for most speakers, you'll have the right equipment. I'm talking about all other factors being more or less equal, such as size, price, and aesthetics. I think this philosophy -- getting the speaker that does the best on music w/o a sub -- will stand anyone in good stead for HT and for long-term investing in speakers, which after all don't grow on trees, alas.

Being able to match with a line of speakers is also important, so if you think you want to go with the ELT line/family, there's your decision. But if the M2 sounds best to you on music (or the M3 for that matter), you have to imagine the Axiom line will also sound better. The sub is a possible exception, with Axiom and any speaker brand, subs being the speaker least subject to timbre-matching issues, since the sounds are (or should be!) so low in the spectrum.

Yeah...I purchased a set of ELT's to compare with my Ascend CBM-170's. I posted my thoughts here:
http://www.ascendforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=58&whichpage=1

In summary, I thought the ELT's highs were a bit harsh in the highs, and it lacked some midrange. It is a nice package, the weakest piece being the subwoofer. The price has now gone up $100.

Thanks for all the replies!

Curtis, I read your review and I have to say I agree with you on every point. I've read not so good reviews of the ELT sub too. I think an upgrade would be in order. Great value for someone wanting 100% HT. Great build overall too.

Austinbirdman, you make a good point as well, one I have pondered myself. If a speaker sounds great by itself, it should sound that much better with the whole package for both music and movies. But as I listened to the ELTs with Seabiscuit, I couldn't help but really enjoy the clarity of the highs. For all around use, I don't think they are the speaker for me. Honestly, my wife prefers the look of the M2/M3 better. The rest of our furniture is dark wood.

That said, still have concerns about the vinyl veneers. I need to decide this week as my 30days are coming up quickly.

From all that I've heard about the veneers, they are not a problem. Also, I disagree with Austinbirdman. No bookshelf (under a gazillion dollars) is going to sound perfect without a sub, and you will be getting more accurate reproduction from the M2 than the M3, which I'm given to understand sounds better without a sub.

curtis,

when we conducted the budget speaker comparison at my place using my 2 ch gear awhile back, i thought the M22s were brighter and harsher than the CBM-170s...then when you returned the 2nd time bringing your 340s and listened to the ELTs in my 2 ch system, i thought the ELTs were just as "harsh" as the 340s...based on measurements taken in my room driven by my gear, the midrange is not lacking...it is the UPPER BASS region as the ELTs were intended to be used w/ a sub...

here's the link w/ the measurements...

http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1364

happy listening!

MD,

With all do respect, that day at your place, I thought the Ref1 and the 340's were much better in terms of harshness than the ELT. While I remember the M22 being brighter than the ELT, I do not remember them being harsh/distorted until the volume got turned up.

Judging by the numbers in your table, it seems the mids on the ELT are stronger than the RS750, and I did not feel that to be the case at all....even when I heard them at your place. The mids are the RS750's strong point. It also seems to suggest that the ELT has stronger mids than the Ref1.

My feeling is the ELT lacks in the mid-lower mids. One song that I think really demonstrates this is on the Dave Matthews Band "Crash" cd, track #4.

All in all, I agree with the above poster in what he heard.

and that is exactly why i say it's not the mids that are weak...it's the upper bass region...i used a test tone disc...how do you isolate the mid frequencies in music when there's so many other frequencies being played simultaneously?

sure the ref1s were smoother than the 340s which were smoother than the ELTs...but you did say that the ELTs sounded much smoother in my setup...and did not start getting harsh until over 90dBs...

And what I was getting at is the mids on the ELT are no where near as strong as in the Ref1 or RS750. And with that not as strong as my Ascends as well.

I am in agreement that it lacks bass from about 100hz down.

Freq. response graph aside, I will back up and say that the beginning of track #4 on the DMB Crash disc, on the ELT, it did not sound as good as it does on my CBM-170 or CMT-340....I do not remember playing that track on the M22's.

For the poster that has the M2, M3, and ELT right now...if you have that disc, I would be interested in your thoughts with that track on all three speakers.

MD...we can take this offline. All I can really do is compare the ELT to my Ascends, and it is not helping people interested in the Axioms, and I generally do not post anything about Ascends here.....and I do not use the "metallic" word here anymore either.

Curtis,

We're friends and I'm totally cool with you...I have no probs with you not liking the ELTs, Rockets, Refs or any other speaker that I might like. That's cool because we have different preferences...I do have a problem when you make a statement that is simply not true about the mids of the ELTs. Do you know what are the frequency or frequencies that are being played at the beginning of track 4 on DMB Crash and how they measured on each speaker? That's all I'm saying. Thanks for your time. Happy listening...:)

MD...I know we are friends and we respect each other's opinions.

For the record, you know I like the Refs and Bigfoot, and actually prefer the ELT over the RS150.

I will see if I can find out about that freqs on that track.

"For the record, you know I like the Refs and Bigfoot, and actually prefer the ELT over the RS150."

Yes, Curtis, I know...I was just trying to say that I really don't mind that we prefer different speakers. That's all...Not actually saying that you don't like those I specifically listed...

Ah go ahead Curtis.
Use the word metallic....to describe the Rockets perhaps....just for fun.

Mad Dog, Curtis, it's good to see friends work out differences of opinion.

I am brand new to this hobby. While graphs are a good reference to look at, listening to speakers in my home is the only way I can decide what sounds good. With that said, I don't think my set up is ideal with the speakers put in corners. Also, my vernacular for this hobby is not up to speed so bear with me.

Curtis, I do not have that particular Dave Matthews Band CD. What I do have is, "Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds Live at Luther College". I played track #6 from Disc #1, "Crash Into Me". I repeated the track twice for each set of speakers, I did not adjust the treble or bass. No sub used. For this listening session, I divided the song into 3 areas; the vocals I considered high, the "lead" guitar playing notes instead of only strumming I considered mids, and the strumming guitar I considered low/bass. These 3 areas are what stood out the most to me with each speaker. I know this is by no means a scientific way to measure the frequencies of this song. But, here we go...

The ELTs were the brightest of the 3. The vocals were very pronounced. The "mids" were there but not very forward, no bass. The highs are the strongest point of this speaker, mids (whether lower mid or upper bass) is ok. As stated b4, needs a sub.

The M2s were "warmer" sounding than the ELTs. The vocals were good, not as high as ELT. The mids were lacking, and bass was pronounced. The mids were really flat, not sure why.


The M3s sounded the best in my opinion. The vocals sounded the same as M2s, with good "mids", and of course bass. They seemed the most balanced.

I'm not sure what good this review does with no emperical data other than let you know what I think. Also, a lot has been written about the difference the M2 and M3. The M3 tends to have a "warmer" sound and M2s have more clarity. I found them to be more similar than different. Partly, I think, b/c of the speaker placement. With them basically in a corner or close to a wall, it seems the bass is more pronounce overall than if they were on stands.

The two speakers with completely different sounds is the ELT and M2. Different mfgrs, different components and build, but man, it's almost night and day.

All 3 speakers sound good doing different work. The ELTs are sold as HT speakers, which to me, they are good at. I'm sure even better with the whole package working together. For 2 channel music listening, they are not for me.

Nice review.

txag,

bass is what fleshes out the sound to provide general "warmth"...per the designer of the ELTs, these are designed to be used w/ a sub to fill out the entire bass region...bass tones go as high as 200Hz...based on what you have described, i would not be surprised if the M2 had higher high and mid bass output than the ELT sats although i can't be sure since i haven't measured them in my room before. however if you cue up a CD w/ test tones, i think you'd be surprised with the sound of some of the mid and upper bass tones. they are much higher pitched than most folks think...and often times referred to as midrange when they are actually upper bass.

the ELT sats are weak in bass therefore they do sound thin...especially if the M2s measure close to what their listed specs show. but i still contest that the ELTs are NOT thin in the MIDS. i am certain if you were to throw in some more output from between 200Hz-70Hz, they would sound much "warmer".

again, i'm not saying that one speaker is better or worse than the other, but just trying to get the facts straight. if curtis said the ELTs sound thin due to lack of bass (high, mid and low), i would wholeheartedly agree! that's all...enjoy!