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#324368 - 09/30/10 01:53 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: BBIBH]
a401classic Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 1333
Loc: Alpharetta, GA
Originally Posted By: BBIBH
Here is an interesting story from the Friday night of the anniversary weekend:

After the dinner was done and the bar staff was sick of us, Jakeman invited people to his "cottage". When we arrived, he mentioned he had just received a pair of M80 V3's.

When they were set up, the assembled crowd listened intently. At one point the massive sub was turned off. While you could hear the difference it made in some pieces of music, it was by no means needed.

At different points, people wandered over to the sub to make sure it was off!!! The bass was that strong from the M80's alone.

Those in attendance, feel free to chime in!


+ 1. Of course my method of testing to see if the sub was on was completely ineffective wink smile
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#324372 - 09/30/10 02:09 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: alan]
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
Originally Posted By: alan
Cap'n, I totally misread your post. I think sometimes because of room modes or perhaps running the sub a bit "hot", the articulation of, say, stand-up acoustic bass is perhaps a little more precise with the sub off.

So ignore some of my blather about "predicting", etc.

Alan


Yeah - I read my post again and I wasn't very clear. In an attempt to say it more clearly:

With a sub, there is more bass, and the room sounds fuller, although the bass tends to be a little bloated and amorphous.

Without the sub, the M60s are punchy and musical (notes are clearly articulable, as opposed to just a deep drone sound). It certainly doesn't go as deep, but for some music, it is preferable, as the sound stage seems a little more clear.

Comparing the "punchiness" - without a sub, it's like getting hit with a closed fist. With a sub, it's like getting steam-rolled by a bull-dozer made of pillows. The force might be the same, but the effect is different.

And thanks for the "welcome back." It had been too long.

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#324377 - 09/30/10 02:45 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: Capn_Pickard]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 6015
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
But doesn't turning the sub down help?

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#324413 - 09/30/10 07:32 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: Worfzara]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7786
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Worfzara


This is a good point, when we were on Ian's dock a couple of weeks ago, he had a live band going through just M80's, no Sub, atleast none that I could see.

And it sounded just awsome!


The bass was being pushed through separate amp/monitors on stage, or so I was told.
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#324438 - 09/30/10 09:08 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: Capn_Pickard]
chesseroo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 5220
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Capn_Pickard
Originally Posted By: alan
Cap'n, I totally misread your post. I think sometimes because of room modes or perhaps running the sub a bit "hot", the articulation of, say, stand-up acoustic bass is perhaps a little more precise with the sub off.

So ignore some of my blather about "predicting", etc.

Alan


Yeah - I read my post again and I wasn't very clear. In an attempt to say it more clearly:

With a sub, there is more bass, and the room sounds fuller, although the bass tends to be a little bloated and amorphous.

Without the sub, the M60s are punchy and musical (notes are clearly articulable, as opposed to just a deep drone sound). It certainly doesn't go as deep, but for some music, it is preferable, as the sound stage seems a little more clear.

Comparing the "punchiness" - without a sub, it's like getting hit with a closed fist. With a sub, it's like getting steam-rolled by a bull-dozer made of pillows. The force might be the same, but the effect is different.

And thanks for the "welcome back." It had been too long.

I agree with you here Capn.
I like the sub for any speaker, but only to pick up the very low end beyond the speaker's range to play.
For music, you won't miss much that the M80 doesn't play but orchestral material and certainly pipe organs need a sub to get any volume from the source content.
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#324447 - 09/30/10 09:29 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: CatBrat]
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
But doesn't turning the sub down help?


Actually, probably not. I used Auddysey (sp?) to calibrate the speakers, so I think the volume is inthe right place. It's more about the flabby nature of a 10" driver as opposed to a 6.5" one, I bet. Just turning down the sub doesn't readjust my crossover settings and I don't run a sub+main setup, so the M60a don't play any of that low end (even at lower volumes).

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#324449 - 09/30/10 09:52 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: Capn_Pickard]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Originally Posted By: Capn_Pickard
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
But doesn't turning the sub down help?


Actually, probably not. I used Auddysey (sp?) to calibrate the speakers, so I think the volume is inthe right place. It's more about the flabby nature of a 10" driver as opposed to a 6.5" one, I bet. Just turning down the sub doesn't readjust my crossover settings and I don't run a sub+main setup, so the M60a don't play any of that low end (even at lower volumes).


Not sure of your exact situation but it sounds like mine which is caused room mode peak around 20Hz, a null around 50Hz and another peak around 90Hz. When running the sub I get the same bloated amorphous bass but while running only the M80s I get more of a punch. If I run both I get the bloat and the punch but the bloat tends to win out. However, when I used the SVS AS-EQ1 to EQ my sub the bass tightened up so I got both punch and rumble out of the subwoofer alone. YMMV and all that.
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#324452 - 09/30/10 10:13 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: Capn_Pickard]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10644
Adrien, my thought is that turning the sub down, or more precisely, leaving it at a properly calibrated and balanced level rather than setting it "hot", does result in less "flabby" bass. The reason being that the very low bass notes handled by the sub are neither "tight", "quick" or "musical" in themselves. Those qualities in bass instruments result from the harmonics which are handled by the speakers, not the sub. Playing the sub at too loud a level with respect to the speakers results in the "flabby" fundamental being unnaturally prominent compared to the "musical" harmonics.

As has been suggested before, it's interesting to listen to what comes out of a sub with the usual receiver crossover setting of 80Hz or lower remaining in effect, but with the speakers simply disconnected so that what's heard is almost entirely the fundamentals in a bass-heavy passage.
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#324459 - 09/30/10 11:52 PM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: JohnK]
DaMagicman Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/03/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Canada
I prefer to listened to the M80s with sub just because I like boom boom sound.
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#324476 - 10/01/10 08:30 AM Re: Sub with M80's for music? y/n poll *REVISED* [Re: kordeo]
PTPlayers Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 129
Morning , this topic is floating around on another thread on whether you prefer 2.0 or 2.1 and personally i prefer 2.0 esp with the M80's as they do have great bottom end.
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