Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Wanna upgrade...opinions?

Thanks for the replies - keep 'em coming

Jason - I'll let you know about the M80s.

I thought I'd get alot of VP180 upgrade suggestions. I suspect I'll purchase the VP180 as well as the M2s for heights. I like the VP150 but I sometimes also find it a bit thin with male voices. Perhaps, subconsciously, I just want something bigger

I've kinda ruled out the Epiks for subs. I love the ideas of the Empires but not really sure if I want to void the warranty - and I agree that the shipping might be crazy.

I actually just exchanged emails with Ajax (Jack) from Chase HT. He owns Axiom speakers including the EP500 and works for Chase HT. He answered my email request for shipping costs, etc. I'm waiting to hear what shipping would cost to Calgary, AB for two 18.1 subs (plus external amp).

I'm not completely sold just yet on two subs. I need to take some measurements from the various listening spots after I EQ using Audyssey in the soon-to-be purchased receiver to see if I need more help. I don't listen too loudly so I don't necessarily need the extra output. But I wouldn't mind to see how two subs would work - plus I wouldn't mind trying a sealed sub that should have deeper extension than my EP500.

The Epik subs look like a good deal but if they won't warranty their product in Canada, you are wise to avoid them. It only takes a blown amp to send you up $#!T creek without a paddle. Either the VP180 or adding a second sub would probably be the most substancial upgrade. As you are on the North side of the 49th, you may also want to check out/contact Funky Waves as another subwoofer option.

She'll notice... it's bigger than your M60's (well, a single speaker at least). But I'm putting in my vote for the VP180 as well. And then my second vote goes for a second EP500.

OK - here's an update. I ordered M2s as height channels and the VP180 as a center channel upgrade. Looking forward to comparing the VP180 to the VP150. I'll try and compare both before and after running Audyssey to see if I notice an improvement. I'll keep it if there is even the smallest improvement but send it back if I can't notice a difference.

Still mulling over adding the second subwoofer. I've kinda stretched the budget and I'm not sure I can absorb another $1200. My wife has been good with the upgrades so far and didn't balk at upgrading the center channel. But I've never mentioned adding another subwoofer so that might prove to be the tipping point

Nonetheless, I'm considering adding another EP500 or taking a bet on the CS-18.T from Chase Home Theater (aka CraigSUB - dual 18 inch sealed subs with a single shared external 1000W amplifier).

The EP500 would cost $1200 CDN. The CS-18.T will cost approximately 1800-1900 CDN. Pricewise, they'd be equals assuming I could sell my current EP500 for 600-700 CDN.

The advantage of the EP500 is that it would match my current system and provide the advantage of dual subs - frequency response smoothing and higher output (+6db). But it wouldn't give me any lower extension than the 19-20Hz I get currently. Plus I'd be buying from Axiom in Canada and have a full 5-yr warranty.

The advantage of the CS-18.T is (presumably) much lower extension (dependent on room - see below), higher output, frequency smoothing due to multiple subs, and different sound quality due to sealed enclosure. Disadvantages - new company, purchase from the US so any warranty issues may prove to be an issue.

The biggest unknown, obviously, is whether or not I would actually achieve the lower extension. It is a sealed sub that naturally rolls off at 12db/octave, starting in the mid 20 Hz range. It depends on room gain and is therefor subject to its interfaction within the room (which, I realize, also exists for the EP500) plus EQ.

My room is not sealed or dedicated to home theatre - it is a bonus room above garage that is open to the stairs from the main floor and the hallway/landing at the top of the stairs. The room is vaulted and is approx. 2500 - 3000 cubic feet. Plus, I'd like to locate one at the end of the couch so it would not be corner loaded - but it would be reinforced by the side wall. I could place the second sub in the corner but would prefer to locate next to my right tower, against the front wall in the middle.

Anyone have thoughts on the ported vs. sealed, room gain required to achieve good usable extension into the teens, etc.?

Thanks in advance!

Bryan

You're getting room gain with the Axiom subs, too. And you get the frequency smoothing from adding a second EP500, too.

So, it seems like you're betting on getting three things from the CS-18.T over two EP500's:

- Greater extension
- Higher Output
- A preferred "quality"

Now, I am a pretty big fan of Craig, Ray and Jack. I like those guys and I think their products are going to be solid performers at a good value. I absolutely think you can count on them to do the right thing relative to warranty issues.

BUT...

I'm not yet convinced that you would necessarily get ANY of those things, especially considering the advanced DSP used by the Axiom products. You seem to be assuming that sealed designs necessarily have deeper extension than ported - I do not think this is the case.

Can you give some examples of areas where you feel like you're missing out on either extension or output with just the one EP500?

You know, if you really feel like you need "more bass", it is possible that installing some tactile transducers (bass shakers) might be a better route than more subs, and that would certainly be a more WAFFY option. Dean (Grunt) has some expertise there.

Well, I suppose I don't expect to get any further extension from the EP500s due to the DSP amp limiting its output below ~18Hz. I've been led to believe that it is limited in the DSP to not allow extension below this point. I've measured with an SPL meter and get very usable output at 20Hz but none (at least measurable) at 16Hz with my current EP500 in my room.

I understand that I'm also getting room gain with my EP500. But given the DSP limitation I'm not expecting any more extension below 18 Hz after adding the second EP500.

Besides, don't ported design inherently drop rapidly below their tuning whereas sealed subs gently roll off? I've always assumed sealed subs have the potential to go lower by design than ported as they aren't limited by the port/box tuning and the frequency drop-off that occurs below it. Of course, the sealed subs require more power and do require EQ/room reinforcement.

As far as quality - yes, this is a perceived quality difference. I've nothing to base this on other than a curiousity to hear a sealed sub. However, I'm primarily using this for HT so I don't think ported vs sealed is a big deal. Plus there are many reviews/reports that have stated the EP series (500, 600) as sounding very 'musical' and competing well with sealed subs.

To be honest, I really don't know much about this topic. I have to rely on others' reviews since it is virtually impossible to line up a number of subs in my room to do an exhaustive comparison - as much as I'd like to do that! As such, I probably due succumb to the many reviews that exist for products like the Epiks, eD, Seaton, etc. vs. the relatively few reviews that exist for Axiom.

Having said that, I do love my EP500. But without having had the opportunity to listen to many other brands/models, I can't qualify or quantify my "love" and will probably always be thinking - what else is there? Am I missing anything?

Now I know why men can be so promiscuous! OK - not sure why I just added that last comment - I hope I haven't offended anyone

Thanks for the input!

At the end of the day, I'll probably just get another EP500 to match my current one (if I do purchase a second sub). Just to difficult to make a decision and the logistics from the US can be troubling.

P.S. Can't do tactile transducers - won't really work with my sectional (which includes a sofa bed). But I'll definitely consider these for my theater room in the basement when the time comes.

Hey Bryan
I was thinking (I know it's dangerous). If I'm available for your demo with Jay I could drive down with my 500 and you could test it out and see what you think. Let me know.
Mel

Mel - that would be awesome. I haven't scheduled anything with Jay yet. I'll be setting up all the new HT gear (TV, receiver w/Audyssey, BR player) this weekend while my wife/kids are out of town. Hopefully the new speakers (VP180/M2 heights) will be here as well. Was considering purchasing the EP500 to try out but I knew that if I ordered it I would probably just keep it

I wanna see how Audyssey improves my single EP500 first. But I would definitely love to try out another 500 first. I'll schedule something with Jay and let you know.

How does this weekend sound

Those are great points, Bryan. You obviously know a lot more about this stuff than you're claiming. The perils of the internet, eh?

Dude, if you just wanna sleep with another subwoofer, that's like, between consenting, um, whatever.

I don't know. Maybe I'm not enough of a basshead. I just don't feel like the "quest for sub 20Hz output" is that meaningful. To me. If that's your bag, I sincerely hope you will thoroughly enjoy it, and will also help educate the rest of us along the way.

Wish I could be there with you, Mel and Jason. Take notes or pictures or tell us a story or something