Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler New Car Hunting

Going to be looking for a new, or barely used car over the next few weeks. Most of the driving is city commuting either alone or with 1 other person. There are 2 kids however, so we need at least 4 doors and room for at least 1 of their friends. Since we garage sale and will use the car for just about anything, we want a hatchback. So...that means Ford Focus, Mazda Protege 5, Suzuki Aerio, Sprint, Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, possibly a Subaru although I don't need 4wd and don't need to be hauling the weight of it around. Anyone driving one of these? Any others to look at?

we have a 2000 vw passat, which is a fun car. they make wagons too.
dan

I test drove the Subaru WRX wagon about 2 years ago. GREAT car, though you do pay for the fast engine.

Maybe a Toyota Prius (new one is hatchback) or Civic Hybrid. Definitely will save you on gas. Honda Element's are cool too, quirky looking but pretty practical inside.

The WRX is way out of my price range. I would love it but....

A Saab 9-3 just off a two year lease return with 21,000 miles for $15000 sounds like a great idea to me.

Don't buy an early model Ford Focus unless the 3 trillion or so recalls on it have been addressed. If you don't need 4wd don't buy the Subaru, apart from the weight and poorer gas mileage, maintance; when needed is obviously higher.

I'd look at the Mazda or Toyota.

Good luck

I've heard that a lot of the problems of the early Ford Focus models have been fixed, but I remain very leery of their quality control.

I love my chevy prizm (same as a Toyota Corolla). My sister bought a Toyota RAV4 which is a Corolla with a small SUV body and 4WD. Now, Chevy stopped making the Prizm, but the Pontiac Vibe (which I think is quite ugly) has the same Toyota 1.8L engine (I was told the other day at the dealership...I did not know that until now), so it will be a great little runner. I get 40-42MPG with the 5 speed stick.

This is not spot-on, but fwiw...

We recently got a 2004 Corolla (which would have the same running gear as a 2003-4 Matrix or Vibe, I believe). I have owned Toyotas before, and may never buy another kind of car again, regardless of the price temptation of other brands.

This car is absolutely great. Smart, solid, frugal, fun. I really cannot say enough good things about it. Both it and the Prius are surprisingly roomy inside.

I saw a new Mazda 3 (Protege replacement?) the other day - very, very good looking car, IMO.

I like the way the Vibe looks better than the Matrix.

Any reason to favor a Vibe over the Matrix, or vice versa?

Well, each of them has some really, profoundly ugly plastic attached. I should think that, aesthetically, you'll probably have an opinion one way or the other when you check them out close up. I believe they are mechanical twins. Budgetarily, the Toyota is probably going to hold value better; you might be able to find a used Vibe for less simply because Toyotas tend to cost more than Pontiacs.

The Matrix is a nice looking car and Toyotas generally have a reputation for reliability, but I think the days of quality issues are over for American cars. We had a Honda Civic that left us stranded on the side of the road THREE times - each time with a different problem. Of course, that Civic was made in Canada and not Japan...
And down here (I believe soCal is the new-car-selling capitol of the world, is it not?) all you have to do is scour the ads of various newspapers (paying much attention to the fine print) and you can find awesome deals where out of the area dealers attempt to undercut the local dealers market share. Might be worth a look.

i vote for the toyota based on reliability,i know quite a few people with toyotas and never heard of any problems,just last week i bought my first american vehicle in 10 years,i hope it lasts like my old nissan....good luck...ron

Like Axioms, the Mazda Protege 5 is a great value and gives huge bang for the buck. I've got one and luv it! It's a stiff suspension drivers car, though. Very responsive & begs for corners, but the ride is "European". Good mpg, too. Super fun to drive. Could use more HP, but you get what you pay for. However, the hatch is not huge for large garage sale items. If you need more cargo space with kids in the car, the Focus has more, but with much different styling. I think the Protege 5 looks sweet and has plenty of room for most applications. And Proteges 5's are getting cheap now that the Mazda 3 replacement is here. You could find a good deal. Only drawback is resale value( Focus is no better), but I plan to keep mine for awhile. I plan to get a rooftop cargo box for our young family and I'm set. Test drive the cars you like and go from there.

Get the WRX...I have one. It is well worth it!

You could do the regular Impreza and not pay extra for the better engine. I haven't had any extra costs associated with it because it is AWD, as someone mentioned.

I agree with another poster though, as far as value goes the Mazda is probably a pretty good bet.

You can also add the Sentra SE/SE-R (?) and the Mazda 3 to your list.

Do not buy a VW, they are rolling pieces of crap (Yes I have one)

Pretty much narrowing the field to 4 door hatchbacks. Love those pocket rockets though.

I drive a 2003 Subaru Impreza Outback. I would say if most of your driving is city, you should steer away from the WRX unless you really want the turbo. Because of the turbo, it requires premium gas, and the turbo doesn't really get going until about 3.5k rpm. I've found that I do most of my driving around 3k rpm. Without the turbo up to speed, the stardard impreza engine outperforms the WRX engine (being larger...), although once that turbo gets going it kicks in an extra 70 HP or so. I have found that the AWD is great, I drove around quite a bit in the snow we had in Boston a few months back and had no problem driving through some pretty messy conditions. One thing about the Impreza though, the back seat doesn't have the best leg room. But man can you put a lot of stuff in that thing if you really try.

My wife drives an '02 Focus wagon. We've been very happy with it.

this site best illustrates Ford's problems with this car;

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=80&scid=51

our 2000 passat has been problem free. hope i'm not jinxing the car now.
dan

Dan:

My 2002 Jetta has not but compared to most people I only have very minor problems:

1. 1 (or more) ignition coils dies, essentially the car decides to run on 3 (or less cylinders). In Canada this means a unplanned but time consuming trip limping to the dealership; I have heard in the US there is/was a 4-6 weeks backorder on the replacement part.

1a. As a result of 1, my car has a perpetual weird idle from possible misfiring. Also possibly related to a shot oxygen sensor, messed up electronics, etc etc ...

These are very common problems. A poll on vwvortex.com shows more than half VW owners have these problems more than once. You probably would have received letter(s) from VW indicating such a problem. My coilpacks was replaced 3 times (to think I bought a new car, as opposed to a used one, because I didn't want to go to the shop all the time ...)

2. The windows (the piece of glass) has a high propensity of falling into the door

3. Rusting issues with MkIII (previous generation) VWs. No reason to think why the current VWs will not be immune to this problem.

4. The 3 VW dealers I have dealt with in Toronto are less than competant. (Although this could be said of dealerships in general)

5. I do not have the numbers handy, but VWs rate quite low in most satisfaction ratings. IIRC they were next to last in JD Powers' survey.

I think it's safe for me to say I will not buy another VW in the near future

Ouch! Thanks for the heads up.

A friend of mine also drives a Jetta, I think it's an 02'. He's had the window problem, but also his clutch fell once pretty much randomly, while he was about three hours from home. I've seen this guy drive stick too, he's good, doesn't ride the clutch. I'd let him cruise around in my Subaru any day. He's got the diesel version, and while it does get impressive gas milage, I can speak for him and say he'd never buy one again. It may just be a Jetta problem though, so I don't know that I'd project these issues over all VWs.
-A

To add to that, I have known friends and friends of friends who own VW Golf, every one would have the window down and not going up again. (that happened during winter!!!) For that VW extended the warranty to 7yrs just for the windows.. One of my close friend, she leased the golf, in 2 years, she went to VW maintanence 7 times for all sort of big and small problem. I don't know but VW seems to be the lowest form of European cars.

Yugo.

I don't wanna.

Hey! I have a vintage car for you! Just the perfect set of wheels to get heads turning as you go by! 1975 Vega custom lime green with shag on the dash, vinyl seats, a 3 on the tree column shift 3 speed, powerful 4 cyl. rebuilt engine, 8-track underdash player and oversized rear wheels with mag rims. Sorry, no FM adapter, but it does have some great Audiovox whizzer cone 2-ways to go with the Clarion 8-track! I'll even throw in the home-made hood scoop! (I made the scoop and cut the hole out of the hood, but never got around to mounting it).

This baby screams down the highway, and with the way it steers and the leaky exhaust, you will swear you are in a cup car doin' 190 at Darlington!

Check out the new Malibu Maxx. We bought an Altima, but the Malibu was seriously considered.

Hey,

that sounds like something I might have seen in my driveway!

The lime green Vega?

Not really, but, I was chauffered in one once.

Went out test driving today. Only had a chance to test 3, the Pontiac Vibe, the Mazda Protege 5, and the new Mazda 3. Some fun. Aside from with the odd ignorant salesperson, most people were pretty good and allowed us to drive and feel them out without constantly trying to close. So... the clear loser was the Vibe. The engine was a bit rough and noisy, and it was pretty gutless. All sound, no fury. What it had going for it was room. Very well designed cargo area with protective hard plastic covering any surface likely to be scuffed up. The driving position wasn't bad, and the dash was logically laid out, but the side bolsters on the front seats were too narrow. I'm not a big guy, but I was pinched in the seat. Back seat room was quite good, and there was enough glass there to keep the kids from getting too claustrophobic. Had a 115 volt outlet in the dash for laptops, coolers, whatever. Not a big deal. No ABS brakes in the model I looked at, and steel wheels with covers. Not much in the way of standard features. Air, CD, tilt wheel, were about it.
My wife liked the look of it, but anything compared to our current vehicle looks great.
Next up was the 2003 Protege 5. Fun car. Nowhere near the same space as the Vibe, but much more of a driver's vehicle. Great seat, and full load minus sun roof, which I hate anyway, and leather which I also don't like in cars. Mags, PW, PL PM, Air, tilt, and cruise are all there. I was just looking at cars so I don't know how much movement there is on price with the Vibe, but the Protege 5 would probably end up being a few dollars cheaper despite all the additional equipment. So, what did I like... The handling was first rate, and the initial jump of the line was a lot of fun. The transmission can be up or downshifted, and all the controls were right to hand. You sit low and the suspension is quite stiff though, which could be a real problem with the kids.
The Mazda 3 is similar, but a more refined car. A little more room , a higher driving position, and a bit softer overall. My wife liked the styling a lot. Although the engine is up to a 2.3 from 2 liters, and there is about 20 more horsepower, it isn't as torquey low down as the 2003. It doesn't leave the line as quickly, although it catches up quite fast as the revs build. Very nice engine, good note, and very smooth. I think it sticks as well, but it has less of the boy racer feel of the Protege 5. The 2003 seemed to turn in a little quicker. The Mazda 3 is more refined and relaxed. Neither of the Mazdas have anywhere near the cargo room, but they kill the Vibe on value. They took off the power mirrors on the base model Mazda though. You have to go up $1200 to get them along with better sound, bigger mags, anti-theft alarm, cruise, a small spoiler, and a couple of other doodads like a leather covered shift knob.
The salesman said that despite the bigger engine and more power, fuel economy is better, but who knows?
Anyway, it was fun, and even my wife who cares more about colour than any other attribute, had a little fun by the end of the day.
Tomorrow we try the Ford Focus, and possibly the Suzuki Aerio, No point checking out the Toyota Matrix after the poor showing of the Vibe. The adventure continues. Just like buying speakers, except the price point is magnified 10 or 20 times.

we have the v6 which has not had coil problems,and at 40+k the windows stii work fine. i love the tiptronic transmission so much i've just started getting quotes on getting the 75 2002 back in shape. it's been sitting in the warehouse for the last 12 years. both the wife and i miss a stick shift. while it was considered somewhat fast in it's day, no so now. held off in the past as neither of us have had speeding tickets for a while.
dan

Thanks for sharing your adventure, Tinfoil.

Well Sunday has come and gone, and we learned a great deal. We didn't have a chance to drive the Suzuki because the dealer was closed, but we were able to thoroughly test out the Ford Focus lineup. Our salesman's command of English was somewhat limited, which was fine as we were trying to investigate the vehicle not the pitch. Every dealer we visited cited a different magazine touting their vehicle as best in class. Anyway...I discovered a great deal about the Focus. The wagon has a wonderful amount of space, and even the base engine has enough grunt for 95% of the situations you may encounter. The 4 door hatchback with the upgraded engine and improved suspension moves out with gusto and feels planted on the road. The engine has a nice tone, and the steering is very precise. If you closed your eyes you would not guess that this is an econobox. The problem is that you can't drive with your eyes closed for long. The A pillar interferes with your vision turning left or right, and everything inside the car screams “Cheap”. Before you fold down the back seats, you have to flip up the seat cushions, and you stare at bare painted metal. The light switch is on the left side of the dash instead of on a stalk where you can access it immediately. The interior smells like cheap plastic, and nothing appears to have been designed with any concession to style. It is functional, but mundane. There are no interesting touches anywhere. I would not have thought that I would have strong feelings about such things in a car, but obviously I do. Despite that, I could live with the Focus if it cost less than the competition, but there is no price advantage. By the time you add in most of the features that the comparable Mazda offers as standard, the Focus is as much or more money, and nothing in the Mazda gives the impression of economy. In terms of perceived quality and value, the Mazda kicks the Ford’s butt. The Ford is quick, the Mazda is quicker. The Ford corners flat, the Mazda will beat it. The Ford interior is austere and uninteresting; the Mazda is welcoming and has nice touches everywhere you look. At this point my only question is: if the Ford, Toyota, and Pontiac are fairly priced, how can Mazda sell their car for the money they do?
The adventure continues.

Thanks for the input. It's very good reading!

You likely already know this, but please make sure you know how good the service is at your local dealership. My own local Toyota/Mazda dealer is a joke. Every time I take it there they rip me off, royally. They have terrible customer service. They're a total headache. I'm mentioning this in case you decide to get an extended "service contract" (read: not warrenty) on the vehicle. I've had a terrible time with it.

I'm a huge Mazda fan, started with an MX6 (1989) now I have another MX6 (1996, newer version). I've been keeping an eye open for which vehicle would best suit me.

no interest in the Honda Element?

I thought about it, but since the car is going to be used primarily for commuting, I was looking for something that you can be comfortable in for long, slow, boring, oh God WHY AREN'T WE MOVING trips. The price really does put it out of range, but I did run it past my wife the other day. She thought it was very ugly. I don't mind it, I like things with a purposeful look, but the price is the dealbreaker.

yeah, the look is a tough one. I like the new mazdas though.

If Rubbermaid made a car, it would look exactly like the Honda Element.

yeah, but put a set of spinners on the Element and you've got the bling bling all set.

BTW, I did see one at Valley Fair in San Jose w/ the spinners. Looked very odd, and I like those rims...

Mazda 3 looks good, but do they have the R&D dollars that Ford does? Japanese car makers are known to hide problems rather than issue recalls. My old Ford F150 gave me 100,000+ miles without breaking down once. Ditto for my dad's old F250 and current F350. Just based on my family's experiences with Fords I would trust that Focus before the Mazda.

Doesnt Ford own Mazda?

Yup, last I saw Ford owned 51% of Mazda,might be more now, hence all the Ford products in the mazda vehicles ie. 3.0L v6 in MPV and all the "Mazda" trucks. I believe the engines and transmissions in the Mazda line up is now Ford and the Body styling and suspension designs are Mazda engineered.

Well the Ford Focus set a modern day recall record just because Ford decided to sell the car well before it's engineering was completed. The new Focus is fine but I would't recommend the early models to anyone.

As for hiding defects:

DETROIT, Jan 22, 2004; Michael Ellis writing for Reuters reported that the city of Philadelphia filed a lawsuit on Thursday against Ford Motor Co. demanding that the automaker fix its Crown Victoria police cars, which have been involved in the deaths of at least 16 U.S. police officers.

On the other hand Ford's F150 is very well thought of. I think it's been Canadas best selling truck for decades. Just trying to point out that assuming all of Brand A's products are the best is rarely correct.

Buying a car is no different than buying speakers.
You want to get what's right for YOU, a good price and most importantly good customer service. That won't happen automatically, you have to do your homework.

Bought it. Picked up a white Mazda 3 hatchback last wednesday. So far this thing is a blast. Lots of grip, good power, comfortable seats. I really am going to have to watch the speed though. I guess it is the same with any new car, but I find that I'm going a lot faster than I was with a lot less effort from the car. I'm also making an effort to locate ways home that have at least a curve or two. There's 17 inch wheels and 50 series rubber from the factory and the feel from the wheel is tremendous. Lot's of fun. Going to be a nice car to sit in for the next 10 years or so. Lots of new buttons and switches to learn. Feel like I should send John a copy of my owners manual.

Don't worry, he'll find it himself. And then give you lots of page numbers.

Congrats on the car, btw.

good buy on the car Tinfoilhat. My gf just bought a 2 y.o. Protege. We were @ a couple of the Mazda dealers during her search and I really like the look of the 3. They make some great autos!

Nice choice, So where's the first road trip to? Dwight, Ont.?

You too Huh..I own a 02 Jetta 1.8T and I have the exact problems as you. VW had to replace my coils 3 times; my sunroof motor was already replaced; sometimes my radio doesn't work and my Power Windows.(electrical problems)
Too many rattles on the dash; I can keep going but too many on the list. Just put it this way this is my last purchase of German made. Thats how piss off I am.(German Engineering my Butt).

somebody told me that some of the more recent VWs were assembled in Mexico and that's been the reason for the poor quality the last couple of years. Any truth to that?

as i said before, 2000 v-6 passat with no problems; great car. as funds free up, getting 2002 bmw back on the road; original owner with 79k miles. i think the germans do have it together, maybe vw screwed up.
dan

True, but explain to me why Mercedes Benz have quality issues as well? In quality control they are not far behind VW. And most Mercedes are made in Germany. The Bimmers are better but still have quality issues. Porsche is the only reliable German manufacturer that is above average.

I was watching the ticker on CNN last week and they said that for every 2 domestic issues there are 100 european issues. 2:100 Wow that huge. Anyways thats my two cents.

Cheers

That is poor TV commentary if they said 2:100. I hate it when people don't reduce their fractions all the way down.

2:100 sounds like a lot higher of a problem incidence than 1:50, which is why they did it, but whatever, just one of my many issues with watching TV news, and reading it for that matter.

Anyways, glad you like your new car man! I really like the look of the new Mazda's, very cool in my opinion. For some reason, the station wagon looks the best in that series to me.

find a Ford Fiat