Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Just got a Vp180 :grin:

Wife tried to surprise me but Fedex guy came at wrong time I am in love. Any titles to try Dark Knight sounds much better already

Merry Christmas to all

Congrats on the new addition to the family. Play something your really familiar with to see how much of a difference the 180 makes.

Congrats Griff! Great Xmas Gift!

Dana

Great Xmas Gift!

You must have been a good boy all year.

Very nice Griffith. I found anything with gunshots really emphasized the differences the VP180 brings over the 150.

Hi Jakewash,
"Open Range" is the ultimate gunshot demo material. I wish that it will come to Blu-ray with Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio but then again, it is difficult imagining the gunshot getting better than it is now! What is your choice for the ultimate ?

Don't know the ultimate, I found the gunshots in U-571 had much better impact with the VP180 than the M2 or VP150 I tried. I would think Avatar would be a good one for that as well. The shots really hit with a pound even with the VP150.

JC, that shootout scene in 'Open Range' is by far my favorite of any shootout scenes of any movie I've personally seen. Good call!

I guess I will have to give that one a try.

Yeah, I still need to check that one out myself. Is the movie itself any good?

"Open Range" The gunfight ! ! !

Brace yourselves gentlemen, you are in for quite a thrill.

I also liked the movie enough to buy it but the gunfight was the determinating factor. I like Annette Bening and Robert Duval, Kevin Kostner is good in a cowboy role (remember "Dances With Wolves").

I remember liking Kevin Kostner in Silverado. It was nice to see him enjoying himself in a role, before he felt the need to become a serious actor. Also, Danny Glover wasn't too old for that sh%#.

Thanks for all the suggestions I will give open range a shot. So here is a list of what I noticed so far.

1: The Vp180 will not help improper mixes, you know movies where the center volume is real low. Those are just bad mixes, cant be helped

2: The center channel really is used for a lot more than dialog. I watched Star Trek 6 times on my current system, watching with the Vp180 felt like I had plugged a hole. It may sound crazy but with the Vp150 the effect sounds just aren't there.

In the first chapter there is a moment where the ship's crew is in chaos, the camera pans and shakes and all the speakers come alive with sound. Well with the Vp150 all but the center came alive, but with the Vp180 completely different. Dialog and effects can easily be heard IMO creating a much more improved listening experience.

3: The Vp180 is not a must have but a must try, my wife thought it would improve the volume. I don't know where she got that idea . But what it really does is expand the soundscape

So that's my thoughts so far I'll let you know more tomorrow thanks

Charles I thought it was. The shootout scene was, in my opinion, just icing on the cake for what I thought was a really good movie.

Randy (Sirquack) told me about this movie a long while back.

Yet you watched it anyway?

I know, can you believe it?

Hi Griff,

Excellent present. Your comment about poor movie mixes with dialogue at too low a level made me think that perhaps you might not be aware that you can independently control the center-channel level, increasing its volume relative to the other speakers to make dialogue clearer and more intelligible for poor mixes. I run my center 3 dB or 5 dB louder, depending on the movie mix, to make sure I don't miss dialogue. You should be able to access the center-channel level from your remote control through the menu and manually increase it if you have trouble hearing dialogue.

When I did double-blind listening tests to the vp180 at the Axiom plant, I used ultra-critical opera vocals (I had never cared for the sound of male and female vocals, especially operatic, through the vp150), I was thrilled with the 180's sound quality and neutrality. I didn't know what I was listening to until after the tests, but I recall noting that male and female vocals, especially from operas, were wonderful. If you are ultra-critical of vocals, the vp180 center channel is indeed a "must-have" in my judgment.

Regards,

Alan

Maybe with other receivers, increasing/decreasing the center channel volume is easier, but with the Pioneer, you have to stop what you're watching, enter an on-screen display menu, go 2 or 3 screens deep then adjust the volume while the speaker is emitting some white noise. (I think... it's been a while since I've done this.) I usually, just turn the volume up on everything at the same time instead.

I keep the center +3db at all times.

But that defeats the advantage of having the CC info mixed at a higher level in comparison to the other channels.

Hey Cat,

That's a drag on the Pioneer if adjusting the center-channel level is that complicated. It should be made easy by all AV receiver manufacturers because it's one of the potential virtues of Dolby 5.1 or 7.1--the ability to independently control the center-channel volume. Turning up the overall master volume of all the speakers usually won't help with badly recorded or low-level dialog. You want to raise the dialog above the level of the effects and surrounding ambience.

Like Wid, I often run the center +5 dB hot. There is also an age factor at work here. Post age 50 and especially past 60, most males have difficulty separating speech from noisy surroundings. It's why we of the post-60 group hate noisy restaurants of all kinds. The same mechanism goes on with separating and hearing the dialog in movies above the ambient and surround information and the music score.

Cheers,
Alan

I may have the center up a couple of db, but don't remember. I'll be replacing my in/on-wall VP100 with an M2 bookshelf in about 3 weeks. I'll have to revisit that issue then because I believe that the M2 plays a couple of db lower than the M22's, which I'm sure the MCACC will adjust for, but then play around with center channel loudness above that also.

Cat you think that Pioneer is bad ... I'll adjust my H/K with the finely tuned 'speaker adjust' settings that pleases my (SPL meter also) palate and anytime there's any kind of a power interruption, or for no reason at all, it will default all of the settings back to -0 across the board. Fortunately it doesn't do this with the other system settings for X'over, distance, large vs small and etc...

Pizzer!

So I keep all of my setting written down (I'm old) and make it a habit to hit the setup screen and menu to re-adjust the settings back to my settings darn near every time I use the system. EZPZ.

Oh and BTW ... +3db on the center for me also.

Cheap ass, buy a new receiver already.

What kind of H/K do you have, Rick?

Rick I like my H/K ... that's nothing more than character.

Ken it's the AVR635, '05 model I believe. I've been meaning to ask if your H/K ever did that.

I know one thing, it sounds darn good.

It's something I never understood. Why in home movies, DVDs or Blu Ray, is there such a big dynamic range? You go through a soft passage where you can barely hear the dialog and a second later... BANG!, the whole house is shaking with extremely high volumes. The reason I say home movies is because this high dynamic range doesn't seem so high at the theaters for some reason, or at least not to me, the volume levels seem closer together than at home.

I don't think it does--I have it on a UPS, so it doesn't lose power very often. I have turned it off via the power button (not the standby button) a few times and didn't lose anything.

Yeah, that drives me batty, Bruno. Especially when I'm watching something at night when the kids are (theoretically) asleep.

There are settings to control the dynamic range, at least for Dolby soundtracks. I have all dynamic range compression disabled, so I do get the HUGE explosions.

You may want to look for the DRC setting in your player (if using PCM output), or receiver if being sent a bitstream.

Thanks Chris. I know of the different settings. If I want to lower the Dynamic range, I have several levels of DRC on the player, the receiver or I can use Dynamic volume from Audyssey. I choose not to as I would like to stay as close to the intended mix as possible. My question is why is it mix that way for DVDs or Blu rays while it seems to be mixed differently (lower DR) in theaters? Any ideas anyone?

Don't most AVR's have some form of "night" setting that is supposed to soften these huge occasional sound increases? I think mine has one, but, living alone, I've never seen the need to try it out.

Yep, but I have only seen this option with "Dolby Digital" soundtracks.

Ken, Rick, Bruno,

No, my "legacy" H/K (euphemism for old) has never lost its settings in that way, Rick.

Bruno: there's no question that the dynamic range of Dolby Digital soundtracks on lots of special effects blockbuster movies is too great for a lot of domestic environments. The mix is certainly the same as the one used in commercial movie theaters. I think there are a couple of factors that somehow make the huge dynamic range more acceptable in a large cinema than at home.

The size of the space and number of bodies in the seats plus all the absorptive upholstered seats in big theaters somehow "soaks up" the dynamic range better. At home, our relatively small rooms just generate too much immediate and very loud reverberant energy that can't go anywhere and get absorbed, so it's just too much acoustic energy impinging on our ears.

Also, the ambient noise level in a house from the heating/AC system/refrigerator/freezer and outdoor city urban noise is usually significantly higher than in movie theaters. The latter are quite well insulated to keep the ambient noise at a very low levels so the available dynamic range can be played without having the peaks at deafening levels.

At home, ambient noise causes us to shift the range higher so the softer sounds can be heard above background levels, then when a peak comes along, it's way too loud.

Does that all make sense?

It's an interesting question that I'll forward to my old friend and mentor, Dr. Floyd Toole, and see what he thinks.

Alan

Thanks Alan. Your input is always logical and greatly appreciated. I am looking forward to what Dr FT has to say as this is a matter I never understood.

Also that might sound stupid but couldn't the engineers mix the BD/DVD releases to better match the home listening environment.

I'd rather not reduce the dynamic range. That will just make any room upgrades I do to improve my home theater less meaningful. Since DRC/night mode are already common options, I don't know why they'd want to hobble the source material in that way, anyway.

I find that the theaters do in fact have quite the dynamic range but due to the size of the theater much of it is not as impactful as in the HT environment. I would guess this is due to the reasons Alan gave.

Most theaters have the volume very loud IMO, louder than most HT systems are usually set to, so the softer passages sound reasonable in such a lrage environment, but at home they are now quiet due to our lower than reference listening levels. Remember that movies generally do have a reference volume and that 0 setting on the receiver is it. How many of us listen at that level? I know I don't, I am usually around -25 to -15.

Sounds like you want your cake, and to eat it too. That's what the DRC is for, to adjust the dynamic range to better match your listening environment. But you don't want to enable it, as to preserve the dynamic range.

I want my explosions to sound much louder than a person talking. If there are times when that kind of dynamic range could wake someone up or something...well, like Chris said, that's what the dynamic range controls are for!

There are probably some countries out there where this is a way of honouring the chef.

Good point.

Hi Allen I do indeed keep the center higher 3db higher then the rest of my speakers. But some films are very poorly coded, and nothing can help them.

I also want to add that all dialog does sound much more fuller with the Vp180. I don't know if my last post made that clear its not louder but fuller. You can really hear the bass in everyone's voice. A perfect example is Dark Knight whether its Batman or Joker everyone sounds like they are there no hollow voices at all

Hi Griff,

Thanks for amplifying your comments re the VP180 center and I entirely agree with you. The vp180's bass extension greatly helps the "body" or fullness of human voices and singers. During blind listening tests, I was really pleased with that aspect of what I found out later was the vp180. Some center channel speakers have a kind of narrow-band quality on dialog which lends a kind of "barky" quality that bugs me and that was totally absent with the VP180.

And yes, some film dialog simply can't be rescued by boosting the center channel volume. I'm thinking of some British BBC police series I've liked. The dialog recording isn't good, and combined with some of the impenetrable British accents, no amount of center channel boost will help.

Regards,
Alan

"Inpenetrable British accents"?

Crikey! that's the dogs bollocks if you ask me. Eh! Wott!

“Crikey?” I don’t think the Australians think of themselves as “British.”

My uncles from England say "Crikey" a lot. I think the Croc hunter guy borrowed it a few years ago.

Adrian,

ha, ha (re your comments on impenetrable Brit regional accents). Just saw the new film "The King's Speech" at a newly equipped digital DLP theater in London, Ont last night. Highly recommended (great acting and casting; Colin Furth, Geoffrey Rush, Guy Pearce, et al) lots of Brit accents but excellent dialogue recording and sound mix. Didn't miss a word.

But so many commercials before the feature started and even before the trailers. Has this been going on a long time in Canada? Even a commercial for pro DLP cinema projectors. I've never seen that before. Excellent big screen image. It was an Odeon Cineplex octoplex in a mall in southwest London, ONt. Wonderful reclining seats.

Cheers,
Alan

I've been reading PG Wodehouse over the last few days. You want impenetrable British...

Hey guys you should check out the movie Open Range, great gunshot scene! Glad I could help Rick.

ps: and yes it is a great movie.

I just got my copy of Open Range. Only $3.82 with Amazon.com Prime shipping. Ha ha. I look forward to hearing it.

Hi CV,

A superb deal ! I'm looking forward to read your comments on the sound of the gunshots from the last scenes. I never heard better ones before that movie and since then.

I just ordered my copy, Amazon says it will be here Tuesday. I just saw True Grit so I am in the mood for cowboy movies.

Sorry for the double post but 2 minutes after posting the above I canceled my order with Amazon. And I ordered the blu ray edition from Ebay should be here Friday. But the extra wait gives me DTS HD, I am really lookin forward to it.


HAPPY NEW YEAR'S

Import? Let us know how it is.

Yes I believe France I also ordered Dances With Wolves directors cut Blu Ray. I am so wanting that right now.

I've had 3 Pioneer receivers recently, 817, 1017, 1020, and they all have a quick way of changing the trim level for any individual speaker while you are listening to ordinary program material. It's not a problem to adjust the center volume (not that I do that). On the vsx-1020, the remote has a "CH LEVEL" button which pops a speaker and current level up on the display, and you use arrow keys to select a speaker and change its level.

It's a piece of cake on a Denon too.