Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Help me build a music server!

I think I'm finally ready to bring my anachronistic arse into the 21st century and start working on building a music server.

I prefer to use a Mac rather than a pc (although I cannot stand using iTunes) but I am open to using Win7 if it works well enough. I will make this a turnkey music only server.

I also like the Squeezebox (actually something higher end would be more desirable).

I will only be playing high bit rate "files" like .wav/flac etc. (no mp3s ever) and would like the ability to play albums (disc image?)as well as individual tracks.

What I would like to gather from my fellow Axiomites is advice on how to go about setting up the best music server that I can.

Any hardware/software recommendations?

Terry, if you abhor iTunes, I don't think you should use a Mac. Likewise, I don't think iTunes is all that friendly with FLAC.

I will be following this thread closely. I, too, am interested in building one.

Just get a machine with as much storage space as you can afford, and put a DLNA server on it. CPU and RAM isn't a concern for serving static files (or even decompressing FLAC to PCM on the fly).

If you're building a video server that will need to be able to transcode from one video format to one compatible with your client, then CPU (or more likely these days GPU) becomes more of an issue.

+1 to what Chris said on music vs. video servers (he's the expert anyway).

Since you asked for suggestions - I love my Sonos system coupled with a NAS to serve up the files. For the NAS (Network Attached Storage) there are many options available depending on features and price point. Sonos is not cheap but IMO is worth it if you want multi-room audio. And it plays a very wide variety of file types including FLAC.

For storage build (more cost effective) or buy a NAS especially one you can set up with it’s own IP address to access from the internet.

Find an interface you like, I love MediaMonkey and you can have audio not just all over your house but all over the world. I like Media Monkey because it plays about everything and has a huge number of features especially tagging files and creating playlists. And although you have to do a little research it’s playlists can be synced to Android phones.

I can’t personally see any reason to buy a stand alone media server when what is essentially a multi use HTPC can do it all in one.

JMO, YMMV MY $.02 and all that.

The computer geeks will tell you a Media Server is stupid, but I'm stupid so it works well for me. I bought a HP Media Server a couple years ago, installed Squeeze Box on the server and use the Duet controller / player. All my music is ripped to Flac. The server / duet runs 24/7 and other than the random network / connection issues, it's been a joy. I can switch back and forth between my ripped music, Pandora, Rhapsody, Internet radio, etc. There is a Transporter model out for the folks who want audiophile level SQ. I have never had any desire to try it and find the Duet player sounds every bit as good as any other device I've heard.

What type of machine do you use to rip you music to FLAC?


A computer can’t?

Not saying a dedicated media server isn’t simpler, just saying an HTPC and NAC combo is more functional.

I use my computer and DB Poweramp.

I didn't say a computer couldn't.

I did not post to dispute or intend to argue with you. Not sure why you want argue with me. Each method has its pro's / con's. I chose the server because I did not want to screw with my PC to listen to music.

Thanks all!

Keep 'em coming (I was hoping ClubNeon and grunt would chime in) since I have a lot of catching up to do.

So basically it comes down to software and network set up as far as the "brains" behind a music server go?

I will definitely check out the recs.

One thing I already have is plenty of 24bit DACS (usb and firewire) to use for the i/o into my system.

I'll also buy a dedicated drive just to rip my (way too) extensive cd collection since that will put a huge load on the drive itself.

Any good how-to articles that you guys would recommend that have all the steps for setting up a server that's for music only?

Like I said, I really don't care much for the iTunes software but I would rather stay in OSX if possible (but am willing to give Windows7 a chance if it behaves) so I might use a Mac Mini for the server duty, but I'm not locked into using only Mac (but for professional use, it's Mac only ).

I just want a reliable and robust machine that will give me headache free operation and allow me to play music in the highest fidelity...

I’m not at home with access to any of my saved links but if you do a google search for “build your own NAS” or something to that effect you can find step by step directions for turning any even a fairly old computer into a stand alone NAS using FreeNAS.

If you plan on using it to serve HD video files you may need to worry about the CPU speed. What software you use to play your media really depends on what you want out of it. I find that MediaMonkey offers such a huge amount of features it was a no-brainer for me to pick.

I prefer to use Exact Audio Copy (EAC) for my FLAC rips because I think it does the best job of ensuring you get an exact digital copy and if not it tells you so. Other ripping tools can be faster but none I’ve found are as accurate. This is mainly important if you plan on your rips also being your backups.

As for the stand alone media server vs computer choice it mostly boils down to easy of use vs customizability respectively plus cost since you’re likely going to need a computer and requisite software (often free) and knowledge of use to create rips anyway.

Thanks Tom!

I do hate iTunes (the store and software) but I'm glad that it pumps money into Apple. I am partial to the OSX operating system. Windows has always been a pain to me.

I'm hearing that Win7 is a lot more stable and workable, so...

Just took a look at the Sonos. Nice. I do like the idea of using an iPad for the HUI. Star Trek-y!

And yes, I will go hungry to put $ into music!

Now gonna go check out Media Monkey.

I really appreciate all the input Axiomites. I probably should have checked older post for these ideas, but I think the technology has been changing so fast that I'm pretty certain this newer thread could help others who are contemplating setting up a server based music system in 2011.

We are living in the future now!

DACs are technically only 'o', and if you're planning to use USB or FireWire interfaces then you are building a jukebox, not a music server. Then, there's no networking involved, and you don't need any server software either.

The benefit of having a server, is that you can have a completely silent client doing the music playback. While my current computer is much better than the previous "hairdrier", it's not something I want in the room with me when I'm doing critical listening.

I was going to say that a PC is the easier way to go for finding the serving software. But if you're really wanting a jukebox type of configuration where the machine that holds the music also plays the music, then a Mac is perfectly suited. Doubly so, if it is a machine as quite as the Mini.

You just need an iTunes equivalent to pick your playlist, and away you go.

Good point!

My specific knowledge is a couple years old, however I think the general principle remain the same.

You may plan to build a music only server, however I’ve found I’m putting more and more video on my server because I’ve been collecting a huge number of music videos from YouTube. Lots of high def stuff is being uploaded these days.

I like Media Monkey, too. Perhaps you can find some kind of library/streaming software for OSX that ISN'T iTunes. Dunno. Not my thing.

Last time I looked at FreeNAS, it would not run SqueezeServer (or wahtever the server side of Squeezebox is called now).

It would be hard for me to have to choose between going to Windoze where none currently exists, and learning to tolerate iTunes. Good luck with that.

What do you dislike about iTunes?

If you liked iTunes, and you want it Mac based, then your decision is easy, get a MacMini and call it a day. With it's HDMI port, the new one is basically designed to be a media server.

Me, I've been keeping the music on my laptop and using AirTunes/whatever they're calling it now to play it to my Airport Express. Done.

Quasi-ditto. I use a Gen1 AppleTV synced to my media collection (movies, music, photos) that's housed in iTunes on my MacBook Pro. Done. I've thought about getting an Airport Express to do exactly what you're doing for another room of my home.

Other than the once-or-twice a year occurrence when the AppleTV spontaneously thinks it needs to resync all of my media (75GB+ across my home network, a multi-hour process), it works flawlessly.

Just to add, if you go the Sonos route (remember that's for music only - no video options) you don't need a media server, you just need a shared data (music) folder somewhere on your network. Sonos scans and looks at that share and serves the music to itself. Adding a media server to the equation just expands getting the media to whatever other devices/clients you are using. In fact I am listening to Chad Smith on my Sonos as I type this being controlled from my MacBook.

I had considered buying an Olive at one time. They were terribly expensive, but looked way cool. I think they have different models out now. And for a fee, they'll rip your collection. Worth a look at any rate.

DB Poweramp uses EAC but has some neat options like gathering album art and simultaneous dual format ripping. I like that option as I use MP3's for my Ipod. They just dump into different folders. You do have to pay for it though.

Wow, I feel like such a noob!

So how are the music files on the server converted from zeros and ones into the land of analog signal?

This is the reason I've been putting off building a computer based music "system" for playback!

I work with the most complex music production software in the world for a living and yet I'm a bit lost here.

Is there proprietary hardware that does the conversion to analog from the files that are streaming from the server? I'm assuming that the server just stores the files and that the software plays and organizes the files. So what is hooked up to the stereo amp if not a DAC of some sort??

I would definitely like to have multi-room server capabilities.

My main concerns are that the audio playback be high quality (cd quality and higher) and that the music is easily backed up on removable hard drives for safety and storage.

Thanks! This is really a lot harder than turntables and cd/dvd players and shelves of records and cds/dvds!

I just need to grok with the whole idea of music media that has shed it's tactile, physical form and is now just zeros and ones to be streamed from a remote hard drive.

Makes my head hurt!

A receiver of some sort. The only place where I think it gets complicated is when you have multiple places you may want to stream to that have their own receivers. With receivers becoming network aware, this issue should go away long term. All you would need is a streaming app that you can put on a networked computer somewhere.

My biggest beef is the fact that iTunes does not automatically rip an album as a disc image so that it plays with the right amount of space between tracks.

Also, if an album has segues (like almost all of Frank Zappa's albums) it puts a gap between songs where there should be none.

Of course, I can manually do it but, that would take forever!

I want the ability to play an entire album or just tracks from them.

I've finally come around to the way iTunes stores and organizes tracks. At first I hated it because it forces you to work like it wants you to work... a very unMac like way of working.

That and the fact that it is primarily set up for crappy mp3's and Apples iTune store (worthless garbage).

I'm sure there're gotta be 3rd party software that will run on a Mac for just music playback/organization though.

A Mac Mini with a couple of large hard drives should be perfect for music only server applications.

But I'm open to using a Windoze machine to do the work if it is reliable and easy.

And just typing that is blasphemy in my household!

So, I prefer to stay with Mac, but since they piss me off so much with the whole iTunes monopoly and syncing up everything to force me into they're way of operating that I'm willing to try other options.

I bought the top of the line iTouch (talk about an impulse buy!) when I was at the Apple store buying a new Mac and I have yet to use it for music, mainly because I want to use uncompressed files only and I'm too lazy to rip and convert yet.

That and I'm pretty sure that the conversion from the iTouch is horrid compared to some other, better way of docking to the hi-fi.

I will never, ever use earbuds...

Okay. So the receiver is getting the files via wi-fi and then converts to analog at the stereo amp? That makes sense.

I just want to use the best DACs possible.

I'm assuming that most "receiver" devices have analog and digital outs.

I have some very high end DACs that work as stand alone hardware, so that's probably the best bet...

I'm learning a lot here!

If the DAC is o for output (which it is), then you use the DAC between the computer and the stereo amp, as you thought. Where you don't use it is getting the record, say, onto the computer. That would be an ADC. Since it's already digital as a CD, well, then, there's no DAC (or ADC) involved at all.

As for iTunes, by definition, there IS no space between tracks on a CD. There is a way to join tracks together in iTunes to avoid the gap, too.

Also, there ain't no reason you can't use iTunes to rip as Apple lossless, which gets you where you want to go.

Now, if you want to complain about how slow iTunes is, I'm with you right there.

More data on the join tracks command:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TA27612?viewlocale=en_US

Have you considered a VortexBox?
http://shop.smallgreencomputer.com/

I am thinking of getting one.

But albums (that dying art form) do have very specific pacing between tracks. When you master a project the space between is crucial for the feel and flow of a recording. Sometime it's just two seconds other times more... but it's very important to the rhythm and pacing of the tracks.




Yeah, just select 0 seconds I think. That might work with tracks that segue but, I've had weird pops and anomalies show up after burning a cd from tracks in iTunes like that.

I use Toast for all my cd burning because iTunes is just too flaky and amateur for my needs.




There's a lot of debate about whether Apple lossless really is lossless! I'm thinking that any compressed format is compromised... but on the other hand, I'm very intrigued by Flac files.




It sure has gotten clunky and uglier with each update!

It's a double edge sword. I'm happy that Apple is doing so well with it's consumer products, I just think most of them suck (iTunes store, iPod etc.) and only use the pro level gear they make.

That's why I'm open to Windows 7, especially if I can customize the software to work the way I want it to without compromising the fidelity of the audio.

I am blessed/cursed with ears that can easily tell the difference between compressed/lossy formats and uncompressed files. Even 16 bit sounds better than any mp5/acc file that I've heard.

And now that storage space is really not such a concern, I would rather not convert cds to compressed files just to save space since sound quality is way more important to me than convenience.

Cool Henry, those look like they're pretty much plug n play.

Terry - I am also with Dean (Grunt) on using EAC to rip to FLAC as accurately as possible. Downside - I don't believe it is available on Mac. Someone please correct me if I am wrong on that one.

The reason I went down the though road that I did, is because you said USB/FireWire. DACs that interface that way will only work when directly connected to a computer. These little stand-only clients mostly have analog outs. If they have digital it's going to be S/PDIF. So the DAC would have to support that too.

Wow, thanks! I never knew that you could do that before ripping. That makes a whole lot more sense.

Perhaps I've been too hard on iTunes software?

But seriously, how do stupid people even use computers? I've been using computers since the dark days of DOS and I'm still sometimes flummoxed!

Thanks Chris. I can always depend on you to clarify things. You are a good liaison between the pro/consumer worlds.

So... "clients" is the term I was looking for! Perhaps I need to learn more about the proper vernacular when discussing this subject...

I recently put Twonky Media Server onto my Dlink DNS-323 and love the way it works. I used EAC to rip all my discs and it was actually quite easy to set this up.

I just use my Denon 3808 to access all the music.

>> All you would need is a streaming app that you can put on a networked computer somewhere.

This statement seems so trivial, but it confuses the heck out of me. I', a computer guy and I still don;t get it. Why do I need to "stream", what is "streaming"? Why can't I just have the ripped tracks appear as files? And if I'm streaming on my NAS, what do I need on the receiver to process the stream?

I've been playing with my little toy ReadyNAS Duo with no luck. I seem to have a server side streamer up, it seems tracks, but my FreeAgent Theater doesn't see the streaming. (It does see files; but the interface sucks; and it plays in mono.)

BTW, as far as iTunes joining tracks at rip time; I thought that once you did that you no longer saw them as multiple tracks, it becomes one track as far as iTunes is concerned.

The DLNA protocol is a modification of HTTP, and rather simple (read cheap) to implement. It is streaming only.

It is possible for a media playback device to be able to mount SMB (Windows) shares, and access the files. This is more troublesome, but does offer more flexibility. Some devices do support this, and it does make things easier on the server side (just share the directory).

It comes down to how much work did the company spend building the client device. My TV and PS3 only support DLNA. So I need to use some sort of DLNA server (Windows Media Player is enough for those times that I need to do it, but there is much better software out there).

Somehow I forgot to hit submit on this hours ago. Here it now, out of time.



Really? I've never seen any debate (but I don't follow Apple news that closely). As long as a codec's input equals it's output, then it is lossless. I prefer FLAC (because it is open), but there's more than one way to remove the redundancies from digital data in such a way it can be restored.

Do you find Zip files, RAR, LHA, etc compromised? There's been decades of research showing that it is entirely mathematically possible to store data with patterns (i.e. not truly random) in less space.

Complex compression routines are difficult to explain. But RLE is simple. Though, it wouldn't work too well for audio, unless you're in the habit of listening to low frequency square waves. But I'll use that as an example.

Say you're using a sampling rate of 10 kHz with a bit depth of 1, and you're trying to store PCM samples of a 1 kHz square wave. 1 is the speaker pushing out, and 0 is the speaker pulling in. The signal would look like this:

0000000000111111111100000000001111111111

Using RLE (run length encoding), you'd use a system to store the first sample, and then the "run" of how many identical samples follow. So the lossless encode would look like:

0R10,1R10,0R10,1R10

What took 40 characters to store before now only takes 19. That's better than 2:1 compression (in this highly contrived example).

All lossless schemes work with the same basic premise. Come up with a way of detecting redundancies, or patterns in the data, and then use an encoding system that takes less space to represent that information.

One note: In truly random data, there will be no patterns, so the overhead of storing the file inside a container will make it larger than the original.

A more interesting note: The same can be said for a file that already has had its redundancies removed. Even if it is with a less superior method. Like if you take an uncompressed BMP file and put it inside a Zip, it'll shrink quite a lot. But if you RLE encode that BMP first, and then try to Zip it, you'll have a larger file than with the first try.

As a fellow Mac guy, I can recommend Windows 7. Best Windows version yet. You'll be using this server as an appliance, so you should focus on the features of the software rather than the platform.

Once again Chris, I must bow down to your deep knowledge of all things concerning computers and codecs!

Early on there was some controversy regarding the Apple lossless format due to the processing needed for converting it for playback. I assume this was because processor speed might be a consideration? Not sure but... I was actually mistaking Apple lossless for AAC which is lossy. My bad.

I just get all nervous when someone starts talking about throwing out bits!

But truthfully, I don't really see the need for compressing 16 bit wav/aiff files much anymore since storage space is so cheap now. Compression or not, it's really not an issue in terms of disk space. A 1.5 terrabyte HDD is big enough for around 3000 CDs in wav. That's a lot of storage!

I remember when I paid $600.00 for a 500 meg drive... ouch!

I am interested in FLAC since I've been hearing it's a great (open source) format for downloading large, higher bit files off the intertubes...

Man, after reading through these posts in the cold, hard, sober light of day I have to say...

It's still a bit confusing about how to set up a computer based music (server?) playback system that's future proof and audiophile worthy!!!

But, I think I might be leaning toward the Squeezebox as the interface/software and a Mac Mini (since I already have one) with external drives holding my entire (uncompressed ) cd collection. This might be the cheapest and easiest way to get started for me now.

But why on earth did they discontinue this product? It's perfect for us old timers that want a little "hardware" with their "software".

http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/207slim

I think it appeals to me because it has the heft and build of real audio gear.

I so hate the cheap plastic "computer" stuff that Logitech typically produces.

And I still would like to see someone post a how-to/step by step post on setting up their music server. I think it would be as interesting as a "setting up a HT" thread.

Boy, it sure seems like there's a few ways to skin this cat!

I believe Chris has his audio saved as WAV files, right? My collection is primarily FLAC (except for certain download-only tracks with no lossless option), but I don't have the perfect playback device for them yet. Right now I do most of my music listening on my computer, which is hooked up to my HT via HDMI, but I'm not sure how much of an impact the way Windows mixes its audio affects the signal, and I can't employ Dolby PLIIx or other matrixing without first setting my computer's audio to 2-channel, which I'll never take the time to do. It would be nice if you could buy a PLIIx/z package for MediaMonkey which would make use of the additional channels.

Blah blah blah. I know, I ramble about things no one here cares about.

I'm with you on that. I like the idea of the Squeezebox Touch, but I'd hate to spend hundreds of dollars on a player that feels so cheap. I think Logitech charges too much for what they're offering, and I'm not even only talking about build quality. It's just crazy that some of their Harmony remotes are more expensive than game consoles with much more meaty hardware inside. Economies of scale, perhaps, but it's hard not to see it simply as a greedy gouge. I suppose there needs to be more competition to make the prices come down.

Streaming is nothing more than playing or running a file that is located on one computer on another. You can stream media by doing nothing more than sharing a folder on one pc on your network and then accessing and playing it via another pc. Most people associate the word streaming with buffering. Buffering pre caches a certain amount of data so if there is a hiccup in the data transfer it is unnoticed.
I run a windows home server where I store all my data including music and movies. I have a client HTPC at each tv in the house so I can access my media anywhere. Windows home server also does some other cool stuff like performing daily backups of each pc on my network and allowing me to stream the files on my home server over the internet when I’m on travel. For not much more then the price of that logictec device you can build an entire HTPC.



Apple has there own version of flac its alac.

Terry, I'm not sure how it compares to the earlier model you linked to, but Logitech is still selling the Transporter SE, albeit at a jaw-dropping $1499.

Sounds like I'm basically in the same place as Charles relative to music. I just have a computer hooked up to the main HT installation. It holds all my FLAC content, which can then be accessed by other computers on the network. I'm not cursed with golden ears.

I think you can break it down into pieces.

1. Get the music on a hard disk. You'll have to decide on the codec, ripping process, etc. I totally agree about storage being cheap. FLAC gets you SOME compression, but honestly, if I had it to do all over again, I'd probably just buy more storage and not do any compression.

2. Decide where, when and how you want to access the music. I gather that you're not really concerned with portable devices. That makes things a little simpler. This is where Chris' advice about DLNA v. Windows share comes into play. Part of the decision here relates to what you decide for...

3. Software to manage the catalog and listen. iTunes, Media Monkey, WinAmp, etc. You may need more than one utility.

It seems to me that you can swap around various hardware bits (DAC, network, etc.) with some flexibility at any point in the process.

We've been mostly focusing on how to hack this together, because it's fun, geeky, inexpensive and you can do it.

There ARE integrated commercial solutions, however. In addition to Sonos, the following would love your money.

The Olive products Mike mentioned earlier look pretty great, but they are expensive.

The stuff from Escient is also pretty sexy.

How about a Sooloos color touchscreen jukebox from Meridian?

IF you can make a Mac Mini and Squeezebox solution work (it's not that I don't believe you can, I just don't spend much time on Apple stuff), that seems like a good direction.

Oh, and Back Up, Back Up, Back Up.

Yep, if you're looking for a compressed format, then FLAC is my recommendation, but I do, indeed, keep my music stored as Wave files. The only real problem with this is: there's not a very detailed metadata format for Waves. I don't need to know the year, BPM, genre, etc. So it suits me. I organize my disk structure to provide everything I need to know.

\Artist\Album\##. Artist -- Track Title.wav

My current setup i use right now is a wireless DAC from Opera COnsonance and my laptop (iTunes). It actually run very well and since i do like iTunes, i have acces to all my music via my laptop and sound quality is top notch. In fact, directly compare to my Arcam CD23 player, i can't tell a difference.
Here link of my DAC : http://grantfidelity.com/site/consonance_DLinear_8_Wireless_DAC

Btw, Rachel and Iam from Grant Fidelity are very kind.

Yeah, metadata is one reason I keep it in a format like FLAC, though its metadata options aren't as deep as WMA, which I had it in before. Not that I needed all of that data, but it was cool.

I personally keep artist folders but not subfolders for albums, since I like having all of that info in the filenames to make it easier for me to keep track of it all when transferring individual songs to wherever.

Tom, your post is the best advice thus far for someone just starting to get into setting up a music/computer playback system.

You clearly and coherently explain what I've finally figured out myself while pondering this issue. Kudos!




Brilliant advice and this will keep me busy for a while! I definitely should purchase a dedicated drive just for this purpose. I will probably burn it out with such intensive use.

I only want to do this one time!

I'm very excited about digitizing my vinyl collection though...




Amen!

That is a subject unto itself.

How do most of you back up huge music/video libraries? Raid array? Software applications that mirror hard drives?

Right now I have my music collection (and videos and documents) on a WD Green drive which sits in a hard drive dock connected to my eSATA port. The data is mirrored by SyncToy at 4am every day to my Synology NAS. I really consider the WD Green drive on my computer the backup now.

I think aiff has more metadata than waves. I'm still not sure if I should rip to .wav or .aiff (for music on 16/44 cd format). I might want to share or make "portable" the files at some point and wave files seem to be the standard.

As someone that has seen the evolution of digital audio, I cannot believe how many formats that have come and gone. But the dust seems to finally be settling...

By the way, us music professionals have finally decided on a "standard" file format for recording/archiving. Broadcast Wave Format (BWF). Bit rate and sampling rate are still "variables" (grrr ) but the storage format is set. BWF also has very detailed metadata.

What any other encoding of the files using software and the decoding (surround formats specifically)is up to the delivery device/mechanism that will be used. Thank god/allah/zeus!

Terry, you are too kind. I REALLY enjoy and appreciate the enthusiastic way that you patiently share YOUR extensive professional knowledge with the rest of us. The opportunity to learn from people like you, Chris, and others is what keeps me coming back. Every. Damn. Day.

I'm listening to some John Entwistle that I transferred from vinyl some years ago. It sounds like crap. Maybe my ears aren't that bad after all.

RAID Is Not A Backup.

If you were willing to pay for and liked that product you linked to, then I would seriously look to Olive music servers that Michael briefly mentioned. They should have something you would like.

Yeah, I checked that out. I like the idea (and aesthetics) a lot but the model I want (O6HD) is $5000.00!

The 03HD is $999.00, I could settle for that if I had too...

But I'm probably gonna try to put together a budget high end system myself. That just takes more work!

Has anybody used this software for playing music files called Play?

Not really liking these release notes for PLAY:

Known Issues:

•Album art support is missing
•Some metadata is read-only
•Seeking in Ogg FLAC streams is not supported

It would seem to me the easiest way and to stay with Mac would be to use apple TV with the music stored on a NAS/timecapsule or something like that, but I am not really familiar with Apple/Mac stuff.

Yeah, I saw that. Oh wells.

Checked out Songbird. Pretty cool but bloated with a lot of crap though. More importantly, it cut off the ending and beginning of songs! Like a crappy cross fade thing. Could not figure how to fix that.

The iTunes player really is crap. I can't believe Apple is letting me down so much with what should be a simple music player app. Bastards!

(damn I wish that MediaMonkey was available for Mac... )


The two best things that I've gotten from this thread so far are:

1. Start my archiving process now.

2. Use EAC for all my ripping needs.

I definitely agree with those two. It takes time to rip everything. (I never finished, as I'd start listening old CDs that I hadn't heard for a while, and then a squirrel would by or something.) As long as you rip into a lossless format, you can't go wrong. Find out that you don't like FLAC (or what ever) down the road, it's possible to convert one lossless format to another without generational loss. EAC will guarantee you've got an error free rip too.

EAC found a few of my non scratched cd's had errors, sometimes it would say I might have a different pressing, other times I simply had a bad pressing

Hmmm, I've never had it report an error on any rip. Sometimes it is a little less sure my rip is correct, because there were so few (or no) other examples.

Who made the drive you're ripping with? I used to use Plextor, until LiteOn started building them, and then switched to Pioneer.

As Ken said, RAID ≠ backup. Let's say you have all your music on a pair of mirrored (RAID 1) drives. One day, one of those drives fails. No biggie. The other drive is an identical copy, so you've lost nothing. You just buy another drive of equal or greater size and you're good to go. Some time later, though, the RAID controller goes kaput, but not before corrupting some data on your drives. Oops, you may have just lost some music.

To prevent data loss, you need a backup. A good backup routine is to make an identical copy of your precious data and save it to a completely different device, preferably in a different location, at least once a day. There's plenty of software that will do this for you. Naturally, everything doesn't get copied over every day. Most software will only transfer anything that has changed since the last successful backup ran.

I had this happen and no I hadn't done any true back ups. Luckily I was able to retrieve the data by hooking the drives up to my Ubuntu box and pulled all the info I needed off of them, luckily nothing was corrupted.

I am using a LG drive - GH20LS10. I should try the questionable discs in one of the other machines in the house; the PC I built for my son has a Pioneer drive in it.

Definitely start ripping your collection now. Take a look at DB Poweramp before you do though, seriously. I started out with just EAC, and sure do wish I would have used DB from the beginning. Something as mundane as album art can really turn into a nightmare later. I've tried numerous album art finding programs to only give up and live with no album art for the majority of my collection.

PS Audio makes some pretty killer audio gear, including stand alone DAC's. They also make a music server worth a look. Not as expensive as the Olive products, but not cheap either. They took a different approach than Olive by not incorporating an internal hard drive or CD ripper. You just plug your Ext hard drive into it, or your network and it does the rest. I'm actually quite intrigued by this device.....

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-dac?cat=audio

After the pain of ripping my collection, I have a back up of my backup of my music folder. (my photos too) Problem I have now is clutter. I need to take the time to organize all the drive folders. I wish I would have put more thought into a filling system when I first started too.

One more music server to look at is QSonix. Again, expenive. I think all these things are. http://www.qsonix.com/Public/v5/ProductQ205Overview.aspx

Sometimes you can get a good deal on them from Evolution Audio/Video. They also carry PS Audio, and other high end brands. http://www.evolutionhometheater.com/index.php

Naim offer also good product in that departement.

http://www.naimaudio.com/hifi-products/type/2

Well, after extensive research I finally found an excellent program to rip cds for Mac (since, unfortunately, EAC is Windows only) called XLD. Like EAC it's very accurate but sloooow.

Now I'm starting the huge undertaking of archiving my cd collection.

I'm ripping to .aiff @16/44 uncompressed. It seems to have all the metadata that one needs for info/artwork. I've even finally loaded some music on my iTouch via iTunes (it's at least good for that!). Gonna be very cool for a road trip!

This archiving endeavor should keep me busy for a long while.

I appreciate all the suggestions Axiomites... keep 'em coming!

I like the high end servers a lot, but I'm wondering if it's better (cheaper too) to concentrate on the software that will play/organize the music and put the money into a nice D/A converter for two channel playback.

Gonna get interesting when I digitize my vinyl at 24/192!

db poweramp is a great program for sure Drew.... I use it fairly often to convert music formats for IPOD use, etc.

Awwwww, Man!

Imagine the creaminess of surface noise and the sharp transients of pops and clicks at THAT sampling rate!

Pretty much. Hate to say it, but vinyl has no where near that resolution. Especially if it's been played more than once. Better use FLAC to try to recover some of the space of those top four octaves of inaudible hiss.

You should have you're itouch and ipod and ipad all hooked up with plenum cable for better base.

I think there's a web sight for that.

You jest but...

I would love to let all of you Axiomites hear my vinyl playback system. You would be impressed with the sonic lushness and depth that can be achieved with the proper equipment playing a well maintained record.

Most of my vinyl collection is in very good condition. I always clean each record before it is played and spend more on stylus/cartridges in a year than most have in a lifetime.

I have some 180 gram vinyl of Blue Note jazz recordings that sh#t all over the cd reissues as far as sonic quality goes.

Just because cds have technically better specs than the limited frequency range and limitations/anomalies/distortions that records have does not mean that they sound "better".

I've found that people who dismiss vinyl playback as inferior either do not own a quality turntable/phono stage or have never heard (or have forgotten) how great records can actually sound on great equipment!

(note: Yes, I'm aware of Alan Loftt's recent blasphemous article concerning vinyl vs. cds, and I will be addressing that subject soon... That's a whole thread topic of it's own right there!)




Why wouldn't I use the largest bit depth to capture (and believe me, it will be done as professionally as you can do it) the records?

16 bits would be too much of a compromise, although you are probably right about the frequency sampling rate. That's why I wouldn't bother with a sampling rate of 192k!

But make no mistake, analog's (even vinyl!) resolution is infinite compared to digital. Yes there is noise and distortions but, a lot of analog's distortions are desirable ones.

That's why most of us audio engineers are still trying to replicate the lushness and distortions/limitations that analog brings to the table. Witness all the software that emulates the harmonic distortions/sounds of tape saturation and tubes. If digital was already perfect for music/audio we would have stopped at 16 bits because, technically, it has better specs than analog. But as you are probably aware, there is almost no one recording today (digitally) that accepts just the sounds of ones and zeros. We use many tricks and software/equipment to replicate analog recording.

And guess what? The majority of audio professionals agree that digital is still not quite there yet. It's getting close though, but it has a way to go to capture all that yummy, tape based goodness that we all know and love...

But then again, I'm also one of those people that believes that all amplifiers are not equal!

When I start archiving my lps I will post some clips of records vs. their cd versions so we can all hear what I'm talking about.

The difference is quite revelatory!

And btw, I'm only going to "digitize" my record collection for the convenience and ability to play them in a music server system.

That and to save those precious grooves from the effects of time and wear...

Oops.. I did mistakingly say 192k, I meant 96k!

(great, now I'm arguing with myself on the intertubes... )

Thanks Chris and rneil for the streaming primer. I actually think I finally get it. (And how embarrassing too; but that's often the way it feels when the light shines.)

And on a lesser note, thank you pmbuko. I've been going out of my way to always say "iTouch" - just because it drive mac-o-philes nuts. It had been losing its allure; but now I'm re-energized!

Well played, Cork.

uWant aPiece oMe?

Do this. When you post them, give no indication of which is the CD rip, and which is from vinyl. Post pairs of wave (or FLAC) files, sometimes with 'A' being the CD, and other times the 'B' file. Flip a coin to pick which one gets named that way for each set.

The only problem with that Chris is that it will be obvious which is vinyl and which is cd! You, of all people should know that!

Or are you just pulling my leg?

I'm not trying to do a double blind test and fool anyone...

But I do think the difference will be in the quality and listen-ability of music that was originally released on vinyl vs. the re-released cd version. So this "demonstration" would be basically for older music recorded, mixed and mastered on analog tape.

Newer releases are generally done on a DAW and are digital from the beginning. So even if it's released on vinyl, most current music hits the digital world at some point earlier in the process.

Exceptions are the purist, niche labels/artists that will record and mix to tape, master in the analog domain and press to vinyl.

I would just like to post how much better (in sonic terms) the original vinyl sounds compared to the cd release of the same album.

btw Chris, do you know anything about the XLD software?

If so, how does it compare to EAC as far as making a quality rip? I realize that EAC uses a database to compare files with for consistency and XLD does not.

But I'm liking it for Mac so far!

Also found out about this. Gonna check it out. It seems intriguing...

Plex

Anyone ever tried this?

No, I don't think that's a valid test. A valid test would be of an album on vinyl and an album on CD, with the volume normalized. No remastering. Does such a thing exist? Is it possible?