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Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336577 02/01/11 10:24 PM
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In theory two well designed receivers are not going to measure identical on the bench. So in theory it is possible two well designed receivers operating within their limits can sound different. There is more to an amp than frequency response like THD, S to N, output impedance, crosstalk etc.

There are other factors that really matter for amps in real world listening like listener preferences and the impedance and sensitivity of the loudspeaker used and how they interact with a particular AVR/Amp. Some amps will perform better than others with certain loudspeakers.








I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
casey01 #336578 02/01/11 10:25 PM
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Sticking with the speaker analogy. Speaker makers continually do things to "voice" their speakers differently to appeal to different people.

Though there are physical limitations when it comes to both emitting light and sound waves that will always keep displays and speakers from being able to come anywhere near the accuracy of the electronics driving them.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
BlueJays1 #336579 02/01/11 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dr.House
In theory two well designed are not going to measure identical on the bench. So in theory it is possible two well designed receivers operating within their limits can sound different. There is more to an amp than frequency response like THD, S to N, output impedance, crosstalk etc.

There are other factors that matter like listener preferences and the impedance and effieciency of the loudspeaker and how they interact with a particular AVR/Amp. Some amps will perform better than others.

I'm not saying that every amp measures identically. I'm saying that amps with measurements beyond the level of human detection (well designed) will be indistinguishable from one another.

If an amp's output is changed by a loudspeaker load to the point where its measurements shift into the audible range it is either one of two things: not well designed, or being pushed beyond the limits of its design.

If an amp is designed with a "listener's preference" in mind, it is not well designed, but intended to purposefully color the sound in some way.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336580 02/01/11 10:39 PM
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Rick just got propositioned by Rosie O'Donell's grandma and you guys are still talking about amps?


Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
Adrian #336581 02/01/11 10:43 PM
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I am a well designed debater.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336601 02/02/11 12:05 AM
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T
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I think Rick's story is more fun than science.

You know, I'm bad at this stuff and I honestly don't really care, but...

Quote:
equipment that is many times more sensitive than human ears


The flawed assumption here - for me - is that science can measure everything that can be experienced. I agree that ears probably can't do everything that equipment can, but why is it necessarily the case that equipment can do everything ears (and a brain) can?

I know, flat earth. I get that a lot. Just making conversation.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
tomtuttle #336602 02/02/11 12:06 AM
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At that point, you're arguing that some equipment is spiritual (ie, the amp), while the measuring equipment isn't, aren't you?


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
Ken.C #336604 02/02/11 12:12 AM
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I have spiritual equipment.


Rick
Our Room

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Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
tomtuttle #336605 02/02/11 12:14 AM
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I will concede, that if some one can repeatedly, and consistently demonstrate to show that than can detect some difference between two signals that can't be measured, then there may be more to audio reproduction than what has been measured so far.

But the thing is, no one has been able to demonstrate this. There's always big excuses, and complaints about the trial conditions. So until I see proof otherwise, I'm sticking with the current measurements of distortion and noise as what can be heard. And when they're small enough to not be heard, that's good enough.


Pioneer PDP-5020FD, Marantz SR6011
Axiom M5HP, VP160HP, QS8
Sony PS4, surround backs
-Chris
Re: Receiver/Amplifier Reviews
ClubNeon #336608 02/02/11 12:20 AM
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It's not that hard. Buy a $100 receiver from Newegg, and compare it to a $800+ receiver. Instant day and night difference.

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