Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Anyone ever move or setup basement bathroom "stub"

We have been looking at a house for a while, but its biggest negative that we've come across is that the basement bathroom plumbing is stubbed in a bad location... Right at the bottom of the stairs.

In order to get the basement layout to work, we would want to put the bathroom somewhere else in the basement. I've heard some people say that it is cheaper to cap off the existing stub, and to run new drains for toilet and the shower.

I have no idea either way, but have no idea what it would cost to do either? I know that there are a lot of variables, and I'm not afraid to do work myself, but don't know where to start. I just want to get some figures so that I know how much more I need to account for cost wise to finish the basement and factor that in to the value (or expense) of buying that particular house.

Are you sure you can't rebuild the stairs or something?

Nick, it's IN CONCRETE. You can't "move" it. And any other location will also be ... wait for it ... in CONCRETE.

I'm a fairly fearless DIY guy, but I'm hiring that job out. And it's gonna be expensive.

Nick, I'm not sure what they call them, but I recall seeing some type of septic pump system where you don't have to break into the concrete, it pumps the waste into the septic system rather than draining downwards. It might allow you to build a washroom in a more convenient location as a result. What do they call them? I saw these last year sometime.

Maybe this will help.... upward flushing toilet .

I know that I can't "MOVE" it. I should have said "relocate it yet tie into the old drain".

That is why others have said to just install all new drains. Still have to cut concrete, but then you don't have to go back to another existing drain.

Again, just looking at options. The stairs can't move/be changed.

When my drain pipe for my clothes washer rusted and fell over, instead of cutting into the concrete and installing a new one, I bought some PCV pipes and made a new one that went to an existing drain and emptied into that. I'm not suggesting you empty into a drain like that, but I thought I'd throw that out there just for ideas.

As for the upward flushing toilet, I can't imagine how disgusting that little pump and the "garbage disposal" type spinning blades would be when that thing breaks down... Eeewwwwww...

Interesting idea though.

I've actually been through both of these! Over the holidays at my in-laws country place the pump that pushes the waste from the basement toilet up to the septic drain got jammed (kids - long story) and had to be removed, cleaned and put back in place. It was a messy/smelly job!

When I refinished my basement we had to move a toilet drain. We did just cap the old one. Ran a new line for the new position. Not that difficult, but quite physically demanding, loud and messy to break concrete. Cheap to do yourself (mostly labour) which is why I can see it would be quite expensive to contract it out depending on how the long the revised run is.

One other word of advice - make sure you know where the main electrical cables go. Another long story, but the short version is at another house where we were (yet again) moving the toilet location in the basement, we hit the main electrical line coming in for the house from the meter. Huge electrical fireball, thankfully nobody hurt, and very expensive to have the house put back on the grid again - only qualified electricians are allowed to deal with hooking up to the meter on the outside of the house!

Good lord, Dan. I hope you wear proper eye/ear/body protection when you leave the house. I'm just gonna use my imagination on those stories. And work WITH the meds.

Wow!

Couple of questions.
Do you know how difficult it would be to add a sink and shower/tub drain to that mix? When we finished our last bathroom, I just hired a plumber to make all of the connections, and the sink seemed like it just tied in to one of the others, but the shower/tub drain is a square hole in the ground filled with gravel. I have no idea what was under the gravel or how much work it would be to run that as well.

Physical labor of renting one of those manageable jackhammers is fine. I expect that mess, work. Just looking for the plumbing issues.

As for avoiding the electrical runs under the house, how would someone ever know where those are? Is it like calling the people that come and scan for lines outside in the yard?

Nick,
Keep in mind I am not a professional plumber or electrician, just someone who's done a fair amount of home renovations with people more knowledgeable than myself to help guide the way!

For the sink, you're right, usually you'll just tie into an existing line or add a new run if needed connected to the main house drain. Not much to it - just by the right size connectors and piping, cut and splice in. Of course make sure there are no 'low spots' or sags in the run - that may cause clogging issues eventually.

I have never seen a square drain with gravel like that for a shower, I'd end up googling that so no experience there. Can you lift up the gravel to see what the runoff collects into?

For the electrical, check with your builder what he normally does to get an idea (if you can) where the lines would be. Otherwise track the lines from the outside in to get an idea where they go. In our case when we hit them, they ran down the foundation wall, under the concrete floor in conduit and straight to the fuse panel. In hindsight it was obvious the builder just took the shortest route to the fuse panel from the demarcation point - it just never occurred to us that electrical would be running under the concrete floor. Your construction might be entirely different of course.

Yeah, we have moments and lots of fun & memories doing this stuff. My bro-in-law was on the impact hammer when he hit the electrical. Luckily he was only touching the rubber handles so was just 'jolted' by the surprise and not 'shocked'.

I've done a lot of home improvement work as well as work for commercial buildings, just never actually tied into a basement bathroom stub.

I can do, to code, framing, electrical (from circuit box), copper plumbing, drywall, mud/tape/texture, tile. I have also built 3 large decks, done drain-tile work (all of it), put in 2 windows (where there previously were none), some siding work, and who knows what else. A couple of things that I've never done but would love to know are:
1) Basement drain work (I know, pretty obvious since this is my question here)
2) Laying/stretching/seaming of carpet
3) Replacing kitchen counter-top (never done it, but have a good idea)
4) Installation of hardwood flooring

So anyway, I wonder if the home builder did what you said that took the shortest path from the meter on the outside to the box inside. We don't own the house (yet) and I would need to see if the builder is still around/remembers the house/is able to tell me about it since it is 9 years old.

Oh, sounds like you do quite a bit. I bet I could learn alot from you! It's fun doing this stuff isn't it? Last fall I did a hardwood install with my uncle who does this stuff for a living and learned a few good tricks from him. I actually quite enjoyed installing the hardwood, prepping the floor prior to install was a royal pain however!

See Dan..

See Dan Build.



Run Dan Run!!

Oh my gosh Rick. That is hilarious!

Dan, I have been looking into the idea of some hardwood surface in the basement as well (tile in the bathroom) and my fear is that it would be too cold. I've heard of some people putting down a "dimpled" (big dimples) rubber and then a stranded wood subfloor and then the hardwood to make it warmer, but seems like a lot of work. Especially if we end up with the house that we would end up with about 1600 finished sq feet in the basement. That's a lot of surface. I still would love to learn from someone first hand how to do it (I know the general concepts)...

Was talking to someone else today about the basement bathroom. They had heard horror stories about the up-flushing toilets. They did say that if I wanted to move it I would need to talk to a plumber to have him mark out what would be needed, then do the physical labor myself and have the plumber come back and tie in the new pipes. Was told about $500 for the plumber and the rest would be all my hard work and tool rental... Who knows...

Nick, you can't use hardwood under grade unless it's engineered.

In my last house we moved the plumbing around a bit to add a bathtub, removed a shower and to move the toilets location. It's a fair amount of work but I would do it over again as it was worth making the change IMO.



oh and we moved the floor drain near the furnace (can't really see that in the pic)

Adrian, haven't looked in to what it would need to be, but probably a laminate wood (which is engineered), but we will most likely end up with carpet.

Ben, we are looking at moving the bathroom about 25 feet! That is a good amount of demo, unless we can tap into the drain lines closer to the new location. It is one of those things that with the house, having the bathroom right at the bottom of the stairs is problematic for layout and flow, but if it could be relocated to the other end ("under" or "behind" the stairs so to speak), the whole basement layout and flow falls into place nicely.

Here is a link to a video of the basement in the house that we are looking at...

Right at the bottom of the stairs at the beginning is the bathroom stub. The shower rough in is under the plywood and the toilet is the pipe sticking up. I want to move it to the other end of the stairs with a linen closet literally under the stairs. Hopefully this helps people to visualize the situation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8d38h-ftUY

For the floor drain that I moved I only had to break up a line about <10 feet to the left in that picture I posted. I had a couple bro-in-laws helping me so we took turns with the jackhammer. My best advise would be if you could have some help, get it!

If you could identify where the drain lines run I'd say even making a ~25 foot run is doable if you really want to make it happen. Just plan for one or two days of breaking up the concrete. I had never done anything remotely like this before but I did have some experienced help. Maybe pay a plumber to come out to analyze the situation? I know those guys don't do anything cheap thou.

Yeah, that was kind of the newest plan/idea.... Hire a plumber to map things out, and then do the physical concrete and digging work ourselves. That leaves the planning and pipe laying to the plumber. I know that fitting the pipes together probably isn't a hard job, but since it is going under concrete, I want to make sure that it is exactly right.
Heck, we may find out that the drain that we would need to tie in to is closer to the new spot meaning less distance to dig.

I did see a video last night of someone using a concrete saw and cutting the path. After breaking up both ends, they removed about a 6 foot piece of concrete instead of having to hammer it all. Of course, I would need a straight path and a pretty big cutter machine to do it. The video claimed that it made the work less strenuous than the non-stop pounding of a jack-hammer....

good luck man, doesn't sound like a fun job.

Hilarious Rick! Looks about right!

Hey Randy, since it will be so much fun, maybe you will have to come over to Cedar Rapids some weekend and help (of course we have to buy the house yet)! Then you could help me map out the new home theater. Actually, I have some ideas for that already, but it would be even MORE fun...

Nick, re the concrete cutter - I think that's a great idea but will depend on how thick your poured floor is. If you can get through the concrete to the underlying packed gravel with the depth of a blade I'd say go for it. I think it would make the job much faster and easier.

For a 25' run, you are looking at about a 3" drop (1/8" per foot for 3" pipe).

You basically have two options. Cut a trench or build a floor on a floor. If you have the headroom the second floor, that is a good alternative. You could add some radiant heat to it if you want. Trenching isn't that bad. Just bite the bullet and rent a wet saw, make the cuts, then bust up the concrete and start digging.

Nick, what about moving the bathroom over into the corner where the shelves are - to the left as you are coming down the stairs? That isn't very far away. Like Mike said, you're going to have issues with slope if you decide to go very far.

That was my first thought too when we first looked at it. Then after several people mapping out everything in the basement, the ideal location is under the stairs. Where the shelves are now is planned to become the game room area. My wife hates having the pinball, arcade, pachinko, airhockey out in the main part of the basement. She is fine with the foosball for whatever reason. (she is actually pretty good at foosball)

It will most likely fall on the expertise of a plumber to let us know what can and can't be done and that won't happen until we buy the house (IF we buy the house since we are still working on selling our other one)...

I watched the video again, and I wonder what the drain pipe is next to the sawhorses around 0:39 of the video clip. There looks to be a cleanout which *should* mean that it is a drain.... I think... If so, then my run would be a LOT shorter going to that. I am hoping to get back into the house on Sunday and pay more attention to those details...

Maybe it's just me, but the planing and building is just as fun and enjoyable as using the space after the work is complete. I've just about completed the framing of my basement renovation in house #2. Thou I know I'll be sick of all the work by the time I'm done.

I am the same way. There are those times that I say to myself... "Do I really need to do more mudding and taping today?" because I am sick of it, but then I force my way through the boring stuff and really enjoy the overall process. I love taking empty space and making it something usable. If we manage to get this particular house, there is 1840 sq feet of basement to work with. That is quite the canvas...