Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Getting Stupider and Stupider....

I have a serious question for you guys... though I'm sure it'll be folly for joking as well. I've been wondering about it for a few years, though I've never really talked about it with anyone except making a joke about it with Joyce or a few others.

I think I'm getting stupider and I don't know if it's normal or common.

Maybe it's age. Maybe there's lead in my water. Maybe it's simply a matter of always being "too busy"...and having to deal with all the f**king trees and not having the time to give any attention to the forest.

I used to listen to music...absorbing every note. Now I can't listen to more than a few songs all the way through without my mind wandering. I used to be a voracious reader, and now I just can't concentrate. I used to edit video for hours and hours, and now I find I need to check my email or just walk away after 30 minutes. Yet I can work in my woodshop for hours and hours, forgetting to even eat.

It's not simply a matter of short attention span. I cringe and feel physically recoiled and anxious when I have to read IRS documents or contracts. My vocabulary has shrunk considerably (though that's probably my lack of reading over the last decade).

I used to consider myself quick-witted. Though I can occasionally come up with an amusing one-liner here, I can't do it quickly in conversation anymore. I need a minute or two to think about it. I need a thesaurus and a few minutes without interruption to read some of Bob's posts. HE truly makes me feel stupid!

It sounds like adult ADD. But maybe it IS just an age thing or maybe I truly DO have too many balls in the air.

Yes, I'll bring it up with my doctor at my appointment next month. But I can't help wondering if others are experiencing the same.

Anyone else here notice these things as they get older? Are we all just too f**king busy?

I checked my received email twice, got another cup of coffee, peed and looked at my list of "Things to Do" (I have 106 items on there!) once while composing this short post!

Mark, I've been kinda mulling this around lately, too. Like you, I find my attention span getting shorter and my ability to focus on tasks diminishing. Not only that, but remembering certain things and retaining info is taxing.

My work keeps me plenty busy, juggling many balls and having too many things spinning around my head. The last couple of years I have had a hard time letting all of it go when I'm home and not at work.

I've been a reader for the majority of my life and have almost always had a book nearby. Years ago I went through a spell where I didn't read much. So, in an effort to make myself cognizant of the fact that I NEED to read I started keeping a tally of how many books I read each year. It's just for me. Not to say "Look at me and all that I read!" but a way to keep myself focused on the simple act of making time for it. Sometimes it takes care of itself, like with one of those good books you can't put down. Other times I force myself to turn off the TV and put nothing else in front of me except for reading time.

Last week, I kinda went through the same thing with music listening. My normal routine is to sit down in my listening spot and work crosswords while the music is on. Lately I've been kinda going through the motions--rushing through things and just getting it done, rather than enjoying it for what it is. I consciously told myself to slow down, to give the music its time to work and to let myself get drawn into it. Also, I told myself, I didn't HAVE to finish the crossword, but to work on it and not be discouraged if I didn't get it done. It would still be there next time.

In a sense, I think I prioritized my relaxing time. I needed to do it. I think this works with many things in our life. Our downtime is important and often we need to treat it as such.

Yes, I'm still a bit of a scatterbrain, but I'm working on it!

And you know? We are bombarded with too many things to do in our down time nowadays--music, movies, tv, video games, internet, reading, hobbies, whatever. It's hard to pick one and go with it and enjoy it for what it is. Not a time waster, but an involving process we love.

And, Mark, as to your woodworking, I think we have those hobbies or past-times or loves that are transcendent and we key into them so easily we get into that alpha wave state and lose track of everything. The laser like focus comes naturally and the hours pass like minutes.

There must be something in the air, lol. I find myself second guessing quite a bit over the last couple of years, esp in conversation, opinion or giving friends advice....so here's my advice, my friend....you're at a stage in your life where you've become comfortable and perhaps you just need some new challenges. Here's one...try making an L-shaped granite countertop in your basement and try to get it up to the kitchen to install it . I think we just need to keep busy one way or another, with hobbies, family, projects ect...either that, or your having a mid-life crisis and need to buy yourself a 911 or someth'n.

Well Mark, I'm in the same boat. But add to that, exhaustion, and being overwhelmed when I have to deal with more than 2 things at once(or overly complex thought processes). And more often than not, I walk around with what I can best describe as "brain fog". I forget things on a daily basis. Everything is to a point where it is affecting my job and family life. (Just one of the reasons I don't post here like I did 6 or 7 years ago)
Anyway, I went to the doctor and a couple things came out of it. I am 20 lbs overweight, I have sleep apnea, and have high blood pressure. My CPAP machine helps, and I would say I've seen a 10 to 15 percent improvement from that. (It is nowhere near enough, though) Still working on the weight and blood pressure......

You have very nicely described Flow, the psychology concept. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is the thought leader in this area and written some really cool books if anyone is looking to dive in deep.

See, Sean, you're a natural! Welcome to the psych club. BobKay will teach you the secret handshake.

Mark, I feel the same way. Don't know what to do about it. I'm sure I need more exercise, but I don't seem to ever make it a priority. I've kind of attributed the whole bit to "getting older" but I'm certainly not happy about it.

Your mild protests are duly noted.

So the blood pressure meds my doc wants to put me on are the completely wrong ones?

It's not you, it's me! 90% of the time, I'm just trying to make you (anybody) laugh a bit. Every thought I have is so dense, so bombarded by every association my synapses can find, that it can get rather lugubrious. (For me as well as you!) Sorry.

If any of you had had to come up with a new 3-hour lecture 3 times a week for 2 decades, it'd change your writing/speech as well. I was also the chief writer for my museums, from exhibiton catalogs to PSA's. So, it's just that I've done it my for so long. Like any of you, it is simply being adept and proficient at what you've done for so long.

As for fading mental capacity, everyone over 40 is aboard the Andrea Doria with you. Of course, it's always a matter of degree and none of us is the same.

The problem isn't your memory or your perception that you're not as quick. It's that you're torturing yourself over it (now there's someplace that I AM an expert).

Your MD is of no use to you here. He/she won't ever admit that, but no MD should ever be making psych evaluations or prescribing psych drugs---not one of them.

Men are terrible at managing their mental health, because mental health care is an admission of weakness, or worse. So choose---weakness or disfunction. Once again, "disfunction" is a matter of degree. One is not able to assess that for themselves. You can't know how much of your life is or isn't being compromised, nor exactly how.

Where does the issue you're dealing with cross the line into depression? The options for addressing that are are more plentiful than ever and there really is something, or some combo, to help just about everyone.

And psych drugs aren't going to mask the real you--- not the right drugs at the right dosage. And listen up everyone. Psych med success w/o oversight by a therapist is a pipe dream.

You're way ahead of the game. You've identified that you aren't as happy as you think you should be and you're planning to investigate. I think that puts you in the 99th percentile.

To expect recall across the span of even your adult life gets tougher every year. Remember, we're guys. We peaked at 18.

JUST when i was saying to Peter that i hadn't seen anything new lately on the boards, and JUST as i had stated how my own life has caught up with me (i.e. got busy with even more 'things' and my forum posting has slowed further), i see this fantastic thread.

I say fantastic, not because Mark may be losing his mind to the Sheen teachings, but because i have experienced this and heard of similar reports from friends getting into that family age or beyond (let's classify that roughly as 35-40+) and wondered about cause. Clearly we already know the effect.

Lead in the water?
As a scientist in this area i can say, likely not, although i won't rule it out.

My take on it, and medic8r should certainly weigh in here with a pro thought or at least a cocktail remedy, is not dissimilar to what has already been stated.
Balls in the air.
You put your balls in the air and essentially you hang yourself horribly.
Life is simpler when you're younger. Yes you have more energy with youth, your brain is still expanding its little neurons, you may be active more, and there is just less to concern yourself with (situational dependant).
Then as time goes on, you may get married, have kids, buy a house, a cottage, a car, multiple cars, have to do your own taxes, take on more responsibilities at work...the list just gets larger, not smaller.
The brain has a limited capacity to store all this 'stuff'.
You start to forget, you start to make lists, you start to forget where you put the lists, ....it gets frustrating and it gets worrysome, even more so when you look around and see some other guy in your office place who hasn't seemed to hit that brick wall yet and you think "gee, am i getting dumber cuz that guy still seems wicked smart".

I'm going out on a limb and saying EVERYONE will hit that mental brick wall at some point.
Take some comfort in the idea Mark that even the best of the best will begin to fail mentally at some point. Does it matter that it happens to others sooner than later?
I think i'm happy to know i've lasted this long.

This is indeed true.
By biological definition, humans stop growing after 18 (roughly), so theoretically, as of age 18, we start dying. Some may say we reach equilibrium, a static state, before a downturn curve where 'dying' is more appropriately termed, while others contend this age starts a downturn but at a rate of slow decay, the rate of which determines one's ultimate biological end in time aside from other factors.

Hey! Wait a minute! It's a long ride from lack of focus, forgetting, etc. to "failing mentally." That's not happening to anyone here, yet. There are only two choices---ever. Suck it up or or give it up. The latter is a pretty shetty option.

We identify and address problems, succesfully, all day long, every day. We're just not so good at it when the problem is our own.

There was a good article in the Atlantic a year or so ago called "Is Google making us Stupid", or something like that.

The general theme was that the combination of rapid access to information and rapid, brief social interaction through the internet was changing the way we think, leading to a much shorter attention span and inability to focus, basically Mark's original point (if I remember it correctly, it was a couple of minutes ago ;)).

EDIT - here we go : http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/6868/

The definition of a mental failure could be anything from the small, like forgetting to close the lid on the toilet, to the large, like the Sheen diatribes.
Don't read too far into it by the sound or perhaps connotation of the word "failure".
Choose another word if it sounds more polite if not less accurate.

Ongoing, intermittent mental lapse.
Occasional and increasing mental pauses.
Periodic persistent brain farts.

Thanky, Spanky. I feel better now. Failure's kinda what happens to a space shuttle. Diminution might be an easier diagnosis to bear. It sounds so petite. Then again, some siezures are referred to as "petite." How Frenchy.

Next time i'll be less colourful and just post a picture perhaps.


Something like this

My dad used to call Little Caesar's Pizza, petit mal.

As for the topic at hand, the only time I get frustrated with my brain, is when I've not had enough food or sleep. I can definitely tell the difference when I've used up my reserves of either.

TL;DR





No, I'm firmly of the belief that it's the Internet that's doing this to us. Look at every poster in this thread. All regulars, right? The Internet, and tabbed browsers. They're killing our attention, and I'm younger than a lot of you guys.

Here I sit at my desk, with 3 monitors, either about 22 things in my task bar, and probably 20-30 tabs open in my web browser. Is this making me more productive and attentive? No way in hell. But I'm addicted to it.

I had to FORCE myself to read all the posts in this thread, and I honestly skimmed some of them. I've barely read 2 books this year, in the last 3 months. Even if I'm reading an interesting article on a website, I flip off of it after a paragraph or two, and go and check the Axiom forums, Facebook, maybe load boingboing to see if there's anything new, check my rss feeds, then flip back to the article, get frustrated I forgot where I was, go check the rss feeds, reload the Axiom forums... etc etc.

I'm telling you, it's the internet.

I struggle with your condition Mark, almost to the letter of what you describe. It's not just age, as so many people want to blame it on. It just happens to be coincidental that it happens to people in their middle ages. It's a combination of stress, distractions, lack of rest, too much alcohol, not enough exercise, improper food intake, etc. It's just not living a healthy life because the burdens of being a responsible adult tend to take precedence.

How I have, and am currently dealing with this is to compartmentalize things of priority. I am getting back to what was important to me prior to becoming everyone one elses anchor, verses what is important to all the other external influences of my life (and yes this includes family). If I am not healthy and of sound mind, I can not take care of myself, so I sure in the hell can't take care of anyone else.

I've only just started this, so I really don't have any great suggestions, yet. But I can say that I'm getting my game of chess back. A year ago, I couldn't beat a three year old and there was a time when I could hang with grand masters (once or twice anyway).

Well, I've only been "Dying" for 5 years, but I can feel where many of you come from -- it's easy for me to get into modes of thought where I judge my mental state.

The constant judging, and measuring up of memory, attention span, etc. usually just makes things worse, because i'm thinking and trying to "prove" to myself I don't forget things, or can focus whenever I want, or make easy connections.

For me, it's a lot about mindset. I'm an introverted person, and simple meditation techniques help my mental self-confidence improve greatly. Putting aside a half-hour a day of "me time" is where it all starts there for me.

Nutrition and self-reflection are keys to my mental health, and I've only been really serious about them the past two years, since being out of college.

I've had a few friends who kept themselves so incredibly busy, they never had time to think. And if they did start thinking (maybe in a closed room with their eyes closed), they'd get overwhelmed with the thought of tasks they needed to do -- rather than reflecting peacefully. I helped one friend set aside stress when thinking. It actually opened a whole new mental world to him, which was perfectly normal to me.

With the way the world/internet/life/job is so fast-paced now, it's so easy to lose time. Everything grabs it, so giving it away can just get normal. With the internet now, (referencing the "Google is making you stupid" article) and my developing curiosity, it's extremely overwhelming going through the learning process of a topic online. There's hundreds of bits of information linked to almost any researchable topic, and there are so many instant-click rabbit holes -- at times it's very hard for me to focus sitting at a computer without delving into several tasks at once.

Edit: The edit button was calling my attention.

Mark,
You gave a fairly accurate description of me. I will be 53 in May. I have 'sorta' joked with my wife about the onset of Alzheimers. She insists that is not it. I find that lack of sleep makes it worse - like if I only get 5 1/2 hours - which happens more than I care to admit. Exercise makes it better as does abstaining from alcohol - which I do less than I care to admit. I struggle with names more than I used to. On the flip side (or woodshop side), when I am birding, I can concentrate for hours and the time slides by without notice. So...Drink less, Sleep More and take the time for down time. I heard an interesting program on PBS Sunday about the need for sleep. Over the past 50 years, the average amount of time spent sleeping has decreased significantly, almost 2 hours according to the program.

Then again, it could be lack of sleep for me, too...

Guys relax!

I'm just hoping to have a bowel movement today, this time I hope it actually goes in the toilet.

Dana

Thanks for simplifying. That does take precendent.

And you did it in a single sentence. You rock, Dana!

I have visions of "Top Gun".....3/4 of a foot to go....Dana, Call the Ball....Easy - Easy - YOU ARE BELOW THE GLIDE SLOPE!!!! PULL UP....PULL UP....

If it makes anyone feel better:

I live in a sea of post-its. By the 3rd day, regardless of the flourescent colors, the newest among them have become wallpaper and, therefore, ignored.

I leave 'em on the bathroom mirror. Gotta see that one right away in the a.m., right? Not by day 3.

Whatever I need to take with me when I leave in the morning is no longer on a list. I'd misplace it. What I need is piled blocking the door so I can't get out without it. Really? To open the door, I've had to move stuff first. Then, left for the day without it, 'cause it was behind the same f'n door.

If I go up a flight of stairs for 3 things and come back with only one----ten minutes later---then it must be sunny outside.

Stuff's written on the calendar in color codes (medical, social, professional, etc). If I didn't write it there 5 minutes ago, I won't remember to even look at the calendar as those dates approach.

I made plans to have lunch on Friday with Chris, even though I've been going on here about the electrician on FRIDAY for two days.

I think it's all because I have far more important things on my mind, though I'll be damned if I know what they are. That's the problem! I have too many things ON my mind and too few IN it!!

Isn't someone here in charge of checking ID's?

This was always my favorite learning chess book. I didn't realize it's going on the extinct list until today. I don't know if I have one around home or not. I haven't seen it in a while. I know I've bought this book at least twice before.

Good point.


To clarify, what Bob means by MD = primary care doctor, e.g. someone in family medicine or internal medicine. He is telling you to instead go to one of the medic8r clan. As a psychiatrist, I am an MD also, but had four years of residency to study just psychiatry, whereas the primary care doctors had three years of residency to learn, well, everything. So, as a result, they know a little about everything but not a lot about psychiatry. The good ones know their limits and when to refer out to the specialists.


Too true. If "get a grip" therapy worked, then I'd be in another line of work.

My 2¢ will echo much of the "Take good care of yourself" advice already mentioned by others here. It really is the best way to set yourself up for maximum function. We've all heard these things before, but not all of us actually heed the advice. Do these things and you'd be at the, what, Bob, 90th percentile?

• Get enough sleep
• Drink plenty of water
• Exercise regularly
• Go easy on caffeine
• Go easy on sugar
• Smaller dinner portions
• Eat a good breakfast
• Get me some Red Sox tickets

I had a professor who swore by a daily regimen to preserve cognitive function. It included

• 3 whole walnuts,
• 2 tsp flax seed (ground into powder, put in food or liquid, e.g. oatmeal or OJ), and
• 400 IU of vitamin E - especially the d-alpha-tocopherol form of it, which is the most biologically active.

Now, this was ten years ago, and I think there's more recent evidence that all 8 subvariants of vitamin E are good, so a blend would be OK, even if the alpha-tocopherol is the most active.

Good luck! (on the tickets.)

All very good points.

Has this become a support session for those having mental failures brain fog?
I've always wondered what group therapy was about...

I'm going back to the music therapy.
I don't do it enough, not as often as i used to, and i truly notice how relaxing an hour with a glass of wine, the lights down low, reclined in the chair and a half lounger listening to high quality music can really take the load off the mind and let those endorphins release.
It's the chocolate for men.
Not that there are any women here trying to understand this discussion.
Are there?

Oh, yeah, seeing chesseroo's post reminded me that I forgot to include:

• Go easy on alcohol

Well if we're getting into specifics...

• Go easy on [the] alcohol [Murph brings from the devil forsaken land of PEI where making moonshine is legal]
• Watch out for how much alcohol Peter pours into your cup [that Murph brings from the devil forsaken land of PEI where making moonshine is legal]

At least i remember leaving the venue (along with some other stuff) and was still standing.
Some people could barely sit and move forward {ahem}...Wheels {ahem ahem}...

Besides, we were doing that whole Flow thing, concentrating deeply, engrossed in a moment...or three moments perhaps.

Yet another successful mission with tactical support from my friends at...

[frantically dialing and placing an order]

Good luck. Cam's tying up the line.

HEHEHE .

Resveratrol is good for the brain .

That's what she said.

I have some attention span problems, that obviously affects my memory, that is pretty good otherwise.

I read and watch a lot of informative stuff online (I know we all do, but I kind of consider my job because I can't work), including an entire psychology course broadcast online from UC at Berkeley, but I have a hard time retaining things.

I've recently become deeply devoted to learning about the Israeli/Palestine conflict. I've honestly probably watched at least 50 hours worth of lectures, discussions and debates on the topic, viewing each multiple times.

It's taken me this much to retain the information, and the scholarly literature or documentary record on the occupation. This hasn't been the case in the past.

Something that I think has a big contribution to ailing memory is that there is a new societal paradigm. It's a paradigm of a lazy culture. Part of this is that we're constantly doing repetitive tasks. Yes, this has always been the case (I think it's getting worse with time), as it makes life easier, but I believe it's also a causation of memory loss because we don't have to stimulate our brain as much to remember where things are, it's more so ingrained in us.

We're also using technology to store information now more so than ever. The simplest example is a phone number contact list. When I was a kid, I did my best to remember everyone's phone number, but now there's a contact list on my cell phone, home phone, and a phone list directly beside me. Of course the majority of us had our own personal phone book back then, but I made a concerted effort to remember the phone numbers because I found it to be a hassle to find the number in a book.

There's something else I wanted to mention, but seriously, I can't remember. Now isn't that apropos.

This is my 2¢. Or maybe 1.5¢ because I can't remember my other point.

Is that US, or Canadian? Or have you forgotten?

Forgotten what ?

You guys ain't experienced nothin' yet. Wait until you reach the point where you hear the microwave beep it's competed cycle, you walk into the kitchen, open the refrigerator and find yourself staring into the abyss wondering just what it was you were looking for in the fridge.

I often walk into the bathroom and forget to pee.

Yeah, Mike; you can really get rusty on chess when you don't play much. If you want a bit of a reality test, you can download the Tarrasch GUI and Rybka engine for free here . The most recent Rybka version is the world computer champion with a strength around 3300. The older version included free is "only" about 3000(my favorite 3rd move is resign).

Oh trust me. When you reach my age that will not be a problem. You'll be lucky to make it in time. As Jack Nicholson said, in the character of Edward Cole in The Bucket List, "never pass up a bathroom."

A friend of mine (47) is just winding up his 7 year tenure as homedad.

He has a PhD in molecular biology from Harvard.

He has a theory about IQ and parenting.

For each child you raise, your IQ will drop 1 point per year for all 18 years. That's 36 lost points for two kids.

I can't do the math to figure out what number that would be in Canada, but it would be higher. Apparently, all of their numbers are higher.

So, an IQ of 150 in Canada would be something like 28 in USA?

Because of the imperial to metric conversion and our rising dollar no doubt.

Our dollar is too now!

You gotta keep that brain limber hoss! Use it or lose it.

I met a very famous songwriter/producer named Jerry not too long ago (when he was living here in Atlanta) and I was lucky enough to spend an afternoon at his home studio. He was so sharp and vibrant. Still gets up everyday and works harder than most people a third his age!

Best of all, he still creates and listens to music with incredible passion. He's also witty, hilarious and quite profane. Chain smokes freaking filter-less cigarettes and has a beautiful wife a lot younger than him. Of course, he is filthy rich. I bet that helps a bit with the quality-of-life-living thang.

I truly felt like I was the old man in his presence!

But he inspired me immensely. If he can muster such wide eyed wonder and enthusiasm at his age, what the hell do I have to bitch and moan about? I'm only 48! I'm just starting to grow up.

You have to have passion. I realize that life has a way of kicking the $hit out of you though. I also realize that I'm very lucky that I do what I love for a living. Most people do not have that luxury. So I will work until I drop dead or can't. The idea of retiring sounds ludicrous to me. That would be death in my world!

It's getting harder to focus attention in a world that is becoming fast, shallow and overstimulating (in all the wrong ways).

Listening to music (really listening) is a luxury these days.

Learn to unwind and relax. Yoga, wine, herb, meditation, etc. Whatever works for you.

As much as I love material things, they are useless without friends, family and love. These things are essential to a healthy lifestyle.

And so is music, woodworking, cooking or whatever. I think the act of creation (whatever your "medium" may be) is divine.

And always keep reading and learning.

I think the moment you stop learning is the moment your brain starts to atrophy.

Ditto, like, totally.

Indeed. And if you don't put your attention to "hot" topics, you feel behind. Even if you're learning incredibly.

I think there's a very interesting correlation between the compression of music albums and our newly "compressed culture."

Compressing music takes the dynamics out -- drums become muted, other sounds are more emphasized. Nuance, attention, depth, detail, and subtlety all get lost. So they are right now in a mass-marketed culture.

Enjoying a well-recorded album may be the best reminder of the truest form of human expression, focus, and interpretation. It is for me!

The moment you stop learning, you start dying.

Lolz. That's me in the recording studio!

Mark, I'm seriously envious of your woodworking endeavors. I would love to learn that beautiful art. I can see that being a great way to unwind.

Building and creating stuff is such positive energy.

If society ever fails, your skills will be much more practical and useful than mine, that's for sure!

One other thing, if you can unplug (for a bit) from corporate media, I think that will really help to un-clutter your brain meats.

And as much as I loves the internet, it's also a time wasting, brain numbing pursuit if you don't take a break every once in a while (as he types on an internet forum).

Thanks John! I have a few freinds who also like to play, but as with anything nowadays, time is difficult to find.

Mark, buy yourself and Joyce a couple of nice bicycles and do some riding this year, aside from clearing your mind, it's relaxing, enjoyable and doesn't feel like excercise although it is. Take Buddy with you too!

Actually, going through the dying process is quite educational.



Unless you get hit by a bus or are shot in the head and die instantly. Then you learn nothing.

If so, why the hell don't people learn how to live?

Quid pro quo, my friend .

PS. You should be a motivational speaker at Kalighat .