Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Dialog Inteligibility with VP180

My brother is having issues with dialog and I'm looking for a few suggestions.

His setup:

VP180
M60s
4 QS8s
SVS PB13 Ultra
NAD T765

He's having trouble hearing dialog, particularly during movies. With the system set up and calibrated properly, dialog seems quiet and hard to hear, but when the bullets start flying, the overall volume in the room gets quite loud. I can't turn up the overall system volume to hear voices because action scenes get overly loud.

He's resorted to turning up the center volume. He's at +4 now. We calibrated it to +2 and even that was a tiny bit higher than the measurements showed. At +4, the sound stage collapses to the center channel.

His seating positions are off-center a few feet since he wanted two love seats so I am wondering if I'm getting too much combing from the VP180. It's particularly hard to hear female voices.

Or I was wondering if I should enable Dynamic Range Compression in order to bring up the low volume scenes, and knock down the loud scenes. I'm not even sure if his NAD can do that since it tends to leave out extras that nobody uses.

room turned out awesome. what are the other speakers calibrated to? It is common to run your center a little "hotter" than the fronts.

The mains are at 0 and the rears and sides are in the +1 range. I can't remember exact #s on those since they don't draw attention to themselves. The QS8s are AWESOME and blend in seamlessly.

At +2 the center was already a little hot.

Which surround mode is problematic? If another is available on a disc, is the other also bad?

Are all discs bad?

First off beautiful HT room!

If the system is properly calibrated and you don't like the idea of turning up the centre channel volume there is not much else you can do. Does flipping the VP180 cabinet angle the speaker up a tad like with the VP150? What is the crossover point set on the VP180?

If voices are that difficult to hear coming out of the centre channel you should check to see if all drivers are operational as well.

Again, that room is crazy cool.

He runs it in DTS Cinema to mix the 5.1 into his 7.1 system.

He complains on most movies, but it isn't all movies. We watched The Road which has lot of whispering and a few loud scenes. We then watched Piranha 3D and had no issues with it. Though, admittedly Piranha wasn't getting our main attention since we were setting up his new Harmony 900 remote.

"If voices are that difficult to hear coming out of the centre channel you should check to see if all drivers are operational as well."

Good call. We got one bad QS8 driver and his EP800 was DOA so the QA wasn't too good.

Center crossover is 80hz. Mains are 60hz. I didn't do the calibration. He had some local guy do the measurements and setup. I went in later with a handheld meter and some test tones and it measured pretty flat to about 20 Hz where the SVS fell off like a rock.

I'm with Dr. House, that is a crazy cool room ... freakin' NICE!

My normal setting for the 180 in our room, which appears to be much smaller than yours is +2 db and then I'll bump it up on some of the less than well-mixed sources.

Nothing to add but FREAKING AWESOME ROOM!

I also find that in a lot of movies the dialog is mixed too low and I need to bump the center channel a few dB. If it still bothers him, dynamic compression might be what he's looking for, worth to give it a try. Checking that all drivers are working is also a good idea. Try playing with the crossover setting, I like mine crossed at 60 and even 40Hz. And yes, BEAUTIFUL room!

That room did turn out awesome.

I would flip the 180 to see if the angled side on the bottom works better this should throw the center sound more upward and not directly out.

DTS runs the sound effects hot, have him try DD as well just to see if that helps.

Does your Brother run the PB 13 in 20hz mode? I have mine tuned to 15hz(1 port plugged) and it is great to have that extra little bit of rumble.

He runs it in 20hz mode since the room is fairly large and that's the way we were able to eliminate a large peak around 50hz.

I believe the VP180 is already on the angled side.

And yes, the room is awesome.

I don't want to sound like he doesn't like his Axiom speakers. He loves them. We're just trying to sort out a few minor issues. I just notice that my system in a smaller room tends to have better dialog performance and I never have to adjust the center level.

I have a VP100
M60s
QS8s
SVS PB12-NSD
Onkyo 875

I also run it in Prologic II so maybe we'll try that as well. Thanks for the suggestions!

I want to see more pix of the ceiling!

I would begin by listening to the center channel only with no calibration. I would want to know if it is the speaker or its interaction with the system. I would also try the speaker in that manner in a different location to make sure it wasn't interacting negatively in the original room position.

If the speaker sounds articulate on its own, then I would move forward with system integration.

Ask and you shall receive.

http://s663.photobucket.com/albums/uu353/jinrsvl/Silverwood%20Theater/

The blue glow is my favorite part

Autoboy,

First off, where is the VP180? From the photo, there seems to be a big console-like box below the screen. Is the VP180 concealed inside another enclosure (something I always advise against). If it's inside another enclosure, remove it and have it operating in free space. This is the first complaint I've ever received concerning dialogue intelligibility with the Axiom VP180; normally with this center, it's never an issue. By the way, "combing" is not related to dialog clarity.

Instead of "resorting" to turning up the center level, view it as a huge advantage, and don't overly rely on auto calibration systems. Many movies have the dialogue recorded at low levels with over-emphasis of surround and subwoofer effects. (I've been present at Hollywood soundtrack mixing sessions and noted how the dialogue is sometimes too quiet relative to the music/effects tracks.) So turn up the dialogue track if you can't hear it easily. Or reduce the subwoofer level. dts seems to mix the subwoofer track too hot on many effects movies and that will overwhelm dialogue.

Regards,
Alan

The VP180 is sitting on top of of the SVS PB13 Ultra. It is angled up slightly but not by much. You can see the drivers through the acoustic cloth. The enclosure it is sitting in is completely open front back and sides. The only obstruction is the small amount of framing for the cloth and the decorative element below the center channel.

the enclosure is just there to hide the sub and center since they don' t look nice in open space. The VP180 is much wider than the sub.

Sounds like we need to switch to DD Prologic IIx

So there is some type of enclosure. I do not like the sound of the "extra framing and decorative element", all of which could cause defraction effects that may inhibit clarity and dispersion.

At least remove it from the special enclosure to try it on its own, as it was intended to be used.

Alan

I would try to listen without the acoustic cloth, you never know...

Edit: Alan was faster

I'm with Alan on this. It's not so much the cloth that would concern me, but the diffractions from those other solid objects that are between the front plane of the speaker and the listener. Even if the framing and such is not directly in front of the drivers, it could still impact the dispersion quite a lot. You have to remove that variable first.

AWESOME AWESOME ROOM!

The fix is easy...

Audyssey Multi XT32

Dana

Hmm.... never noticed that the VP180 was 'hidden' I thought I was looking at the l80 in open air, so much for my powers of observation. I am with Alan as well, try the 180 on top of that housing right side up and upside down and see how it sounds. I wonder if the Sub could be affecting the sound somehow, if the 2 are not isolated from each other.

That makes two of us Jason, I thought for sure I was looking at the 180 in open air.

I attribute my lack of observation to old age.

That would make 3 of us.

I guess that is a good tribute to the builder of said enclosure.

1. Wow, beautiful rooom.
2. If you calibrated for the front row then the dialogue will be disproportionately softer and the effects disproportionately louder when sitting in the back row.
3. A few feet off centre is not your problem, I can sit 11ft. off centre and still hear my VP180 crystal clear.
4. Having your SVS underneath is not your problem, but having both in an enclosure may be. Try testing the VP180 with it out of the enclosure.
5. Not angling the VP180 up enough is not your problem, it has outstanding vertical off axis performance.
6. Use Dolby PLIIx / Cinema instead of DTS.
7. DRC/Night/Dynamic Volume can all help if you don't mind the limited dynamic range.
8. Good luck and let us know what you find.

Don't have time to check through the thread at the moment, but did you verify that all drivers are working? I've never heard someone say that they have a lack of intelligibility with a 180...

The word enclosure is misleading. It is a slim mdf frame and acoustic cloth. The frame is 1" thick. If you took away the cloth it would look like a cube frame open at all ends. You never see the VP180. Everything is surrounded by cloth on 4 sides, top, front, sides and they resemble wood framed speaker grills. The VP180 is pushed into the cloth (not literally touching...) such that there is nothing directly in front of the speaker and the frame for the cube is at the most extreme angle from the drivers. The frame is above the speaker not in front of it and the top of the speaker is below the wood frame. There may be a little dispersion off of it, but it is essentially in open air. I don't think that's going to change. He's not taking away the frame and cloth. The VP180 isn't ugly, but the sharp lines don't exactly fit the curvy 40's style decor of the room.

The decorative element is clear in the pictures and sits below the VP180 by a significant amount. You can clearly see the drivers of the VP180 in the picture so you can get an idea of how much it sits below the VP180. I suppose that could add to some dispersion effects, but it doesn't seem any different than if the VP180 was sitting on a TV stand. That could be changed I guess, but it would be a costly upgrade.

The most obvious thing to check is that all the drivers work. I'm awaiting word on that. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

I trust the grill is not in use on the 180 as you would then have dual cloth components and that might affect dialogue somewhat, reaching for straws with this one.

I still think he should try without all this decor/frame/cloth just to make sure it is not the source of the problem. The one thing I always liked about the VP180 is its clarity and fullness so either there is something wrong with the speaker or something is altering its sound.

I'm just not convinced that the decorative element below the speaker isn't the culprit. Sometimes, you can't have both pretty and functional.

I don't know for a fact, but would running the center +4 at the channel level introduce extra distortion?

My first test would be turning the center down to 0 and turning everything else down to negatives accordingly.

second thought, mains are at 0. Has this been propoerly calibrated? Mains0 Centre+4, surrounds+1 sounds like a by-ear setup.

snazzed

This kind of sounds like the reverse of the roll-off in THX systems where the highs in sounds in the movie theater are adapted for home use since the same highs are boosted because the speakers are behind a screen in the theater. I would think a grill cloth over the speakers would certainly have a noticeable effect in somewhat deadening the sound coming out of the tweeter especially if it is producing a flat response curve.

With a speaker the size of the VP180, dialog intelligibility should NOT be an issue. Obviously, something else is going on here.

Autoboy, I have the NAD T785HD it is similar to the T765. The T785 does have Audyssey Dynamic Volume in light, medium and heavy flavors you can try these to see if there is an improvement. The NADs also have the "on the fly" temporary adjustments for the surrounds, center and sub on the remote (+-6dB).

I really can't add much to what others here have suggested but If Audyssey was used for calibration check that the distance is correct also make sure the polarity is correct. One more idea My Oppo 83SE has a Dynamic Compression in its setup that I make sure is turned off. I don't know what he uses for a transport but you may give that a look see although that should not affect just the center channel. As others here have stated I have not had that problem with the VP180 in my setup in fact it has been a great improvement over the VP150.

I don't really have anything to add but to say that room is awesome!

Did you and/or your brother design and build the rooms yourselves? I wonder how much it would cost to hire someone to build a room like that.

The design was done by Mario Panelli. From what I understand, it was only his second theater and he's working on getting into the business. He put a tremendous amount of work into the theater and went above and beyond what has first discussed, without increasing the cost of the contract. He is a perfectionist and it showed. He would build stuff, find it didn't work, and would rework it at his cost. He's an amazing guy and I wish him the best in his future work.

The cost was less than you might think and is probably attainable for many of you if you wanted something like this. He saved a lot of money by avoiding the super high end electronic and speakers. I went for a bang for the buck approach. The audio/video system was only about 10K but sounds fantastic. I'm just ironing out this one minor issue. I may have made the dialog issue sound worse than it really is. Watching a movie in there is really quite amazing.

I'm still waiting on the word on whether the drivers work. I haven't visited him for some time since he is 150 miles away.

Here's Mario's information (there's a few mistakes in the writeup)

http://www.hometheaterdesignmag.com/content/personalized-theaters

IMO, you shouldn't have to turn up center channel volume to hear dialog. If you have to, something is wrong. Using a VP150 as center, I didn't have any problem with dialog when I was near the main listener's position in my room, and after I substituted the VP180 a couple of months ago, I could also hear dialog plainly in two adjacent rooms. I'm one room away right now, actually, and I can hear every word from my TV. I agree with other posters that he should test the VP180 outside of any additional acoustic barriers, to eliminate the possibility that the cloth or decoration are causing a problem.

The most interesting part is that he hears every word from his TV from the other room but the TV is not turned on.....

Sorry, kidding of course.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily the speakers or the setup or the room. Sometimes it's simply a bad mix, where someone was trying to get every other channel in the mix louder and louder.

Just like the compressed music being sold today, there are people in the movie industry that want LFE effects to be loud....and surround effects to be loud.... and music on the Right and Left to be loud.

Anybody that mixes knows you can't have everything louder than everything else. It's the balance of the channels.

But let's face it: When was the last time you heard someone in a forum not brag about the LFE or the surround information, and instead post "The F/X were all at a lower level, but boy, could I hear the dialog really well!"?

In many movies and TV shows, center channel dialog loses in the mix because it's not sexy.

If turning up the center channel a few dBs improves the dialog intelligibility and helps you enjoy the movie, I say go for it...and don't assume it's your setup that's "wrong".

I don't agree with Greg. I also had the VP150 and now have the VP180. The volume level of the dialog is definitely material dependent and also depends on how loud you watch a movie. A lot of movies have their dialog mixed to low. If you're watching a movie with an overall loud volume, even if it is mixed too low you'll hear the dialog properly just because it's loud. If you're watching a low volume, in some movies,while most of the movie will be at an appropriate level, the quiet scenes are barely audible. This used to drive me crazy when I only had the mains and is the major reason I got the center before the surrounds, so I can adjust the level when that happens. When I watch a movie at low volume, it is not uncommon for me to increase the center channel 3 or 4 dBs.

Just recently watched the newly released Tangled 3D errr on Blu-ray. The dialogue, vocal clarity and intelligibility was the best thing about the DTS-HD Master Audio soundtrack. They did a great job. Reproducing natural speech is the toughest thing to get right both in mixing and playback (speakers).

Interesting. A thing that I've noticed is that most of the animated pictured will have the dialog mixed very well for some reason. I haven't watched Tangled but I've watched How To Train Your Dragon this weekend, and also some scenes have lots of surround going on and some crazy LFE, the dialog never looses intelligibility.

I'd say that the dialog in animated pictures is so good because it's recorded one person at a time, up close, in a controlled booth. That way the individual speaking levels can be adjusted for each actor, there's no worry about getting the boom in the shot, and there's no outside noise.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the actors doing the voice overs are speaking directly into microphones as opposed to having to 'act on the set' and the sound often has to come from a variety of inputs on boom mics and other scattered devices.

I've seen a lot of movies where all of the dialog was voiced over from the studio. I'm beginning to think that most of them might be this way.

Yes, a lot of the animated films I would consider reference. Kung Fu Panda would be another. HTTYD is an LFE assault on a HT system. Tangled isn't quite like that but the mix is very good especially with dialogue and singing/vocal reproduction. Sounds very natural.

that's what i've heard/read many times, because if they were to use dialog as recorded on the scene, there would often be lots of interference from the set and it would be bad for the dialog; so, very often they voice over the dialog in the studio.

It's called ADR (Additional Dialog Recording), much of the dialog is still recorded live, but if there's anything that's not clear, or a line that needs to be changed they'll pick it up in post ADR.

I hate ADR'd dialog, so often I can tell which lines were picked up. It'd especially obvious when there's a 1 on 1 conversation that usually shows the person's face who is speaking, but for some lines the back of their head is shown instead. That line has likely been "looped".

The other thing that bugs me is noise gating dialog. Yeah, I understand that sometimes there's something making noise on set that wasn't noticed, yet the take was otherwise perfect. But keep the background noise constant, don't make it go silent between each line, that's just draws attention to the noise. (See CSI this season in the interrogation room).

One thing that bothers me is when someone is talking facing the camera and everything is in sync. When the actor starts facing the other direction (but we can still see the lips), the sound goes out of sync. I've noticed that a few times but I'm not sure if it's related to that or the receiver lip syncing option.

It's probably ADR. I notice it too sometimes. That's why they don't do everything as ADR, because it's hard to even lip-sync with yourself.

Uh uh uh Ohhh.

Billy Idol comeback tour?

It's probably easier to lip-sync to music, especially a song you've heard (or "sung") 100s of times. Delivering a line that you've only said a few times before, with exactly the same cadence (without a backing rhythm) and intensity is hard.

Since we're at it, can someone explain why on some movies the audio is completely off throughout the whole movie? I have a few movies where I need to adjust the audio delay on the AVR to 200ms or else everything is off. How can that be? Wolverine on BD is the one that comes to my mind right now.

The Adamantium is playing havoc with the signal.

I've never noticed OoS issues with major features, but I see reports of it on AVS sometimes. It was mostly with older receivers that were receiving bitsteamed audio. The theory in that case was the receiver was taking too long to decode the compressed audio frame.

Then again, I also don't use bitsteaming, and let the player do all the work. So there can be no variation between the endcoded and decoded frame lengths.

I don't do bitstreaming neither. In the case of Wolverine, I believe the track is a DTS Master HD? Strange!

It's SOP to record "room tone" to insert as needed for exactly that reason.

Yeah, room tone should be mixed in when doing ADR, but in this case they are removing it from live audio. Very odd.

Oh, and I can tell it is automated gating, because little things like saliva clicks will cause the noise to return briefly.

In one of the last made star wars movies, forget exactly which one, during an elevator ride, Obi-one laughs and his mouth is closed with no sign of humor on his face. That scene always bugs be to death.

Oh jeez, don't even look at the list of goofs involving dialog in the Star Wars movies. Lucas seems to more often take audio from one performance and match it with actions of another, than leave the two together. So there are many occurrences of what you noticed there.

Every single line Hayden Christensen says looks poorly dubbed to me but it's actually just a subconscious effect caused by an extreme lack of acting.

It was strange seeing Obi-one singing in Moulin Rouge. I just saw that movie about 3 months ago for the first time.

Was he waving his hand around while singing?

The movie I watched that had the most problems in his theater was called "The Road" and the dialog was really quiet at times. Anyone else have an issue with this movie?

It is a movie that has indeed the dialog mixed too low at times, at least for me to be able to understand the dialog properly. I've watched it maybe a month ago and remember boosting the center ch +4dB (like I do in maybe 20/30% of the movies).