Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Axioms vs. NHT for Home Theater - any thoughts?

I have to agree with spiffnme's interpretation of this. He merely said that Tony's views were in the minority. He didn't say anything derogatory to or about Tony. Spiff's statement was factually correct.

Any negative views about the VP150 are in the minority. The same way it would be factually correct to say that negative views about Axiom speakers in general are in the minority. This does not mean that people don't like Axiom speakers. They are just in the minority.

I have probably read thousands of posts on this board the past couple of years, and since I've seen probably hundreds of people praise the VP150, and about 5-10 people express disappointment with the VP150 (including Tony), I'd feel very comfortable saying that those negative views are in the minority. Doesn't mean people didn't hear what they say they heard. These negative views are just rebutted by a larger group of people with positive views.

Back to the thread.

Since you guys seem intent on keeping this thread going, I'll bite. I did not take issue with Spiff's comment, but rather with Tom Tuttle's.

He said:

"I don't want to continue to beat what I perceive as a long-dead horse, but I also think that it does not reflect the consensus of most board members to continually reiterate your negative experience."

Which I interpret to mean: Even if someone asks a question for which you have some experience (in this case the NHT Evos vs the VP150) since the VP150 is not going to come off positively, keep your opinion to yourself.

Am I reading too much into Tom's comment?

Yes, you are reading too much into it.

I meant what I said, which fundamentally means the same thing as what Craig said.

I have no problem with you relating your honest experiences with Axiom products. Different strokes for different folks. I have no desire to perpetuate this thread.

yes, everyone should with reason express their thoughts. axioms are not for everyone. that's why there are so many buttons on the radio; we don't all have the same preferences in tunes.

I measured mine today with my SPL for about 4 1/2' in each direction from the center of the couch. I could see the needle start dropping when I moved the meter past the arm of the couch in either direction. the dropoff starts about 6" past the armrest on each side and hits -1db at about 1 foot past the armrest. The 150 is just about 10' away. It has the same exact SPL reading at all 3 seating positions on the couch, and it sounds the same at all 3 positions. My ears seem to be telling me the same thing as the meter.

I'm not sure if this is exactly what Tony tried, but I think it is. He had me worried, as I had already ordered mine when he posted his issues with the VP150. I tried it with Avia and the built in test tones on my HK630. (-10 db volume setting, calibrated all 5 channels to 85db)

Maybe I'm just a noob testing it wrong as I am definitely still in the "learning" phase here. Are -10 and 85 the correct levels to calibrate to?

I love my VP150.

Interesting, Michael. Then maybe my VP150 was defective...but Ian said it was fine. Oh well. Maybe I'm not as experienced as you guys at measuring. I've only owned an RS meter, for maybe 10...years. I guess I need to practice more. Thanks for the feedback.

Michael,
Once again i reiterate, forget about the exact dB measurements using pink noise. It is not 100% relevant with a proper range of sound tones and this is not a "problem" with the VP150.
Even the tweeters and drivers on your main speakers will produce the same SPL effect but vertically rather than horizontally.

I hear ya' Chess...

I was just trying to find out if I could duplicate the "problem" that Tony pointed out. I was only making the observation that I was unable to duplicate his results, not trying to validate the testing method itself.

I read your previous posts regarding the problems with pink noise so even if I did get the same results as Tony I wouldn't be all that upset about it. Bogus tone or not, I was unable to produce the same results as Tony. Maybe I measured wrong? Oh well. It's like being in science class in school. If 5 groups do an experiment, you can be sure that at least one of them is going to get totally whacked out results compared to the other 4 groups using the same techniques, materials, and equipment.

He did have me concerned, though. No more. My Axioms kick butt, and I am totally, completely, absolutely thrilled with them.

As a side note, last night my girl and I stopped by a home theater store about 15 miles from my house that I never even knew was there before. We spotted it on our way to dinner and stopped in. The owner spent about 45 minutes with us demoing some name brand speakers costing between $1100 and $3000 per pair. When we left we both agreed that none of them sound much, if at all better than my $800 M60s. She thought I was insane paying $400 per speaker. Now, she thinks I'm as good of a bargain shopper as her.

I'de better go truck shopping now while I have her support...

Hehe...

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Originally posted by Chess
Once again i reiterate, forget about the exact dB measurements using pink noise. It is not 100% relevant with a proper range of sound tones and this is not a "problem" with the VP150. Even the tweeters and drivers on your main speakers will produce the same SPL effect but vertically rather than horizontally.

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And let me reiterate, of all the centers I've had in my home NONE have demonstrated this behavior on Pink Noise or any other noise. And none have had the rather unique TWWWT arrangement of the VP150. Coincidence? Hmmmm...

Re your second point, for a seated listener, the issue of the vertical plane is irrelevant. Most speakers are meant to be listened to while seated. Moving horizontally with your left and right speakers will NOT give the db changes experienced with the VP150, which is why some recommend normally mounted mains for use as centers, and why many manufacturers such as NHT, CSW, Revel, Rocket, Infinity, Ariel, von Schweickert, etc include proper mid-ranges above or below the tweeters in their high end center channel. They do it, so you won't get these measurement anomalies that you get with the WTW or TWWWT arrangements. I'd love to see anechoic measurements of the VP150 on axis at 15, 30 and 45 to see if it demonstrates the expected suckout in this type of arrangement. You can search Stereophile Guide on-line and see legion WTW centers with this suckout. Now, maybe you'll tell me this is inaudible...I heard it.

tonygeno,
It is quite apparent you still do not understand how pink noise works and why i'm telling you this measurement you took is not all that relevant to the use of the centre channel for realistic sound reproduction (music and movies). Pink noise does NOT reproduce the same SPL through different sound ranges by its nature (see the link again with more technical info about pink noise). Since the VP150 has 2 different driver types with crossovers for different frequencies it is EXPECTED that the dB will vary from high to low frequency drivers whether it is an Axiom speaker or not.
To reiterate what Alan had posted on the subject:
"ALL speakers at the front of a room produce comb filtering and uneven response as a result. It's yet a further liability of stereo listening and is quite audible using pink noise as a test signal.... but while it's audible with pink noise, it's not a significant factor that seriously undermines our enjoyment of music, movies, or even stereo playback, nor is it identifiable using music as a test signal."

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Now, maybe you'll tell me this is inaudible...I heard it.

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With pink noise?
YES. IT CAN BE AUDIBLE WITH PINK NOISE.
You never measured this 'suckout' with music playing did you? Your arguments so far have only centered around this pink noise measurement.

These other centre channels you listed (and stated as having done the exact? same measurements with although you no longer own these other units to be sure) were the Axiom M2 and the NHT M5 (and also a CSW?). Unless there are other units you have not listed, the context of this message will refer to the first two speakers as centre channels in comparison.
The M5 has a WTW configuration and its "suckout" would be in the middle location while using pink noise. Not to the left or right.
The M2 would have a vertical "suckout" with pink noise, however its left and right off axis dropoff would probably be higher than the VP150 since width does make a difference the more you move off axis. Now you even stated that the M2 and the NHT both had a 1dB drop in sound as well which only proves they also have this 'suckout' effect although apparently less (2dB being a rather insignificant difference at this point).
Then you also mentioned you turned the M2 on its side. And yet you did not measure a difference in SPL as you moved from the left to the right even though the driver config goes from woofer to tweeter? This i definitely do not believe. Turning the M2 on its side takes its vertical pink noise suckout to the horizontal plane. That would only follow the laws of physics. What you never measured before left to right with the M2 vertically will be measured left to right if it is placed horizonatally.

Now as i recall, your original post had complained of a problem with a 2dB drop in sound. By the second time you spoke of this info the dB "suckout" had somehow increased to 4dB and by the last time you mentioned it the dB drop was up to 5. Is there perhaps some mild exaggeration on your behalf regarding this whole "problem"? Almost every other poster found the same 2dB drop with the VP150 (as did i) when using pink noise. I have measured no drop at all when using music. This is typical.

As for this statement:
"why many manufacturers such as NHT, CSW, Revel, Rocket, Infinity, Ariel, von Schweickert, etc include proper mid-ranges above or below the tweeters in their high end center channel. They do it, so you won't get these measurement anomalies that you get with the WTW or TWWWT arrangements"
Proper midranges?
Shall i quote Alan's statement yet again on how ALL speakers have....?

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You can search Stereophile Guide on-line and see legion WTW centers with this suckout.

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With pink noise?
YES. IT OCCURS WITH ALL SPEAKERS.
Shall i quote Alan again here?
Are we seeing a pattern yet?