Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Axioms vs. NHT for Home Theater - any thoughts?

Hi,

I'm Jeff in North Carolina. I'm going to build a home thaeater system in a room I call the "great room". It is 18x20 feet with 17 foot ceilings. I know its not an ideal home theater arrangement ... but hey... its what I have.

I've been looking at NHT T5/T6 solutions. They are M5/M6 speakers sitting on top of B5/B6 Subs. I would also use the M5/M6 as center channel and maybe the same for the surrounds. I'm looking at 5.1 configuration with an AV receiver with 100 watts for each channel. I haven't bought that yet either.

So I run accross this Axiom stuff out here in Cyber space. Price looks good. Just wondering if anyone else looked at the NHT solutions and might give guidance.

Thanks for the help!

Jeff

I would say it depends on your receiver. The NHT's tend to require a little more juice than the Axioms. Tonally, they are very, very, close. The full range T5 and T6s certainly offer more adjustablity than the Axioms (with the X1 crossover), but your room is a large enough size that it shouldn't be an issue. The NHT offers an identical center to the left and rights: I was not thrilled with the VP150 center. I found it had serious tonal changes as you moved off-axis, changes I do not hear with the M5. BTW, in your size room the T5/M5 should be plenty.

I listened to NHT before purchasing my Axioms. Though I liked the NHT's, the Axioms were far clearer, and had tighter cleaner bass. If I were you, I'd try and find a local Axiom owner who'll let you hear his/her setup. I think it'll be an eye opening experience.

BTW...tonygeno's VP150 problem seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. Most VP150 owners have been very happy with theirs. ????

What's your budget for speakers and sub? Will this setup double as your music listening setup? If so, what do you tend to listen to mostly?

Carolina,

As long as you aren't a Carolina fan, you would be more than welcome to come and listen to my Axiom;s before you purchase if you would like. Send me a PM regarding your location and we will see if we can setup a listening opportunity for you.

Thanks for the advice. My budget is 5-6K for the 5.1 system. This is with an AV receiver. I mostly listen to classic rock. Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Bily Joel. The likes her classical stuff too. The room will double as music room as well as general TV and movies.

Tony,

Thanks....you seem to know the NHT's quite well. I was thinking the T5s L/R with the M5 center and the new L5 (M5 for surround) in the back. THe local NHT guy carries Marantz (SR 7400 $800, SR8400 $1350)and NAD receivers.

I also looked at a Rotel RSX-1067 and RSX-1056 tonight. The 1056 is about $1400 and seems nice.

This particular store carries B&W and Vandersteens. I was quite impressed with the Vandersteens.

Feel free to impart wisdom on me...as it says by my name...I'm a newbit to this. I would be looking at the larger Axioms M60/M80s if I went this route. I guess I fid it hard to believe they can be as good at their price level.

Carolina? I went to Grad School at NC State!

if 5-6k is your budget, you could get the m60's and a vp150, which is what i just ordered, that will cost you about 2400$, and you could do like me if you wanted and get an outlaw amp/pre-amp.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/


a buddy of mine is a huge audiophile, and has all NHT speakers.. i told him about the axiom's that i was getting and he thinks that i will enjoy them very much... btw, my buddy has a 15-20k$ set up.. he is running 5 Adcom mono blocks, and he was thinking about getting the outlaw product, because it is a very good product, and would reduce space at his house, but he decided not to.. not because of the quality of the product, but for other reasons.


You should check out the outlaw products you might like what you see, they are like axiom, and internet only company. If you can wait, I will write up a review on my impressions of the system that I bought, and you can see what I have to say if you like.


Good luck with your decision, I researched for about 3 weeks, before I decided on axiom, I also looked at the NHT speakers… but decided on axiom…


Hope this helps, and doesn’t confuse you.

Hi Jeff,

I know it is hard to take things on faith. I was skeptical too.

I don't know the NHT line well, and if you are that committed to them, probably nothing any of us can say will change your mind. But this IS the Axiom board, so you should expect positive Axiom testimonials here. You can read hundreds of them if you take the time.

I listened to lots of speakers before "the big upgrade". I had been listening to a really nice Polk sub/sat system (that I moved to the bedroom). I considered (and auditioned in stores) Boston, Polk, Klipsch, Mirage, and lots of others.

I am absolutely thrilled with my M60's and QS8's. They are fabulous speakers. I doubt I will be inclined to replace them for many, many years. They far outperform anything I heard near their price range. I like them more all the time.

Maybe you can get an audition. Maybe you will take a leap of faith. Or maybe, if you buy the NHT without ever hearing the Axioms, you'll always wonder "what if?".

The lesser of two evils I suppose.

"BTW...tonygeno's VP150 problem seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. Most VP150 owners have been very happy with theirs. ???? "

Which doesn't mean they don't sound the way I heard them. If you like the VP150, fine, but I heard what I heard, and unlike most in this forum I have auditioned many centers in my home including the VP150, Rocket RSC200, NHT M5, CSW MC500, Boston Acoustics VR920, CSW MC300, Vienna Acoustics Maestro, and Sonus Faber Solo Home among others. I have been exposed to centers of different designs and driver layouts and know frequency aberrations when I hear them.

That said, I was amazed at how close the M2i ($255 a pair) sounded to the NHT M5 ($900 the pair). If Ian could design a center with a real midrange below the tweeter and two side flanking woofers he would then IMHO have a giant killer system for an unbelievably competitive price.

Carolina:

I have T5s up front, an M5 center, M5s as side surrounds and L5s in the rear. I would go for an NAD receiver: more juice than the Marantz. If you can go with a vertical center, you might try M22s as left and rights, M2 (or 22) as center, and M2s and surrounds. This would be a killer system.

And I'm not the only guy here who advocates vertical centers. Horizontal centers are a compromise: most folks don't have room for a vertical center (or won't tolerate it on top of their TV) and most manufacturers don't have the drivers necessary for a properly designed horizontal center. You need a 3.5 or 4 inch midrange to run below a tweeter to keep the horizontal center a reasonable (under 8") height.

I wasn't suggesting that you didn't hear what you say you heard. I'm just saying that it may very well be something other than the speaker creating the issue you had. That's all.

With that budget, and if you decide on Axioms, would suggest the following...

M60ti mains
VP150 center or a pair of M2i's to pull center duty
QS8 surrounds
Hsu VTF-3 MKII sub
Rotel RSP-1068 processor
Rotel RB-1075 amp

That fits under your budget and would be mind blowing.

"I'm just saying that it may very well be something other than the speaker creating the issue you had. That's all."

Could be. But it is rather strange, if that were the case, that none of the other centers I've had exhibited such strange behavior, and none of the other centers had the unconventional driver layout of the VP150.

Is it "possible" that it was a combination of the VP150 and your room acoustics? I am a big fan of the theory that room acoustics are the "forgotten component" in good sound. I don't want to continue to beat what I perceive as a long-dead horse, but I also think that it does not reflect the consensus of most board members to continually reiterate your negative experience. The vast majority of VP150 owners who have taken the time to post their experiences are delighted. AND there is no substitute for listening in your own environment.

TomT,

In reply to:

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Is it "possible" that it was a combination of the VP150 and your room acoustics?

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The explanations are here and here.
There is nothing wrong with the vp150. You will measure the same effect with ANY speaker (electrostatics may be excluded) with pink noise especially as you move across the plane of a different driver type (e.g. tweeter vs woofer). The effect was a drop of 2dB from the extreme left to right at about 8' distance from the VP150 when i took measurements last week. Tonygeno's numbers started about there and climbed somehow.
I measured no such effect when using sound tones and no effect when playing dialogue or music. For some reason this physical limitation of all speakers bothers tonygeno, obviously far more with the vp150 than any other centre he has auditioned even though a pink noise audible difference is not entirely relevant to normal sound tones. In such case, the M2 or another short speaker might be a alternative for a centre channel, but it has its own artifacts with pink noise as well.
There was a link in that post on the subject of pink noise and how it works that should explain alot.

"...but I also think that it does not reflect the consensus of most board members to continually reiterate your negative experience."

Carolina asked for a comparison of the NHT and Axiom. I gave him it based on my experience. Perhaps there should be a forum rule that prohibits any discussion about other brands that does not show Axiom as the winner. Would that make you happy?

Geez people relax. Tony was not happy with his VP150, and said so. All I did was let Carolina know that his troubles with the VP150 were in the minority, and that most buyers have been thrilled with theirs.

The horse is officially dead...continuing to beat it, is just making a big mess.

In reply to:

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Perhaps there should be a forum rule that prohibits any discussion about other brands that does not show Axiom as the winner. Would that make you happy?

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That's an unfair statement. I think if you read through these boards you'll find that a great many brands are discussed and praised.

"That's an unfair statement. I think if you read through these boards you'll find that a great many brands are discussed and praised."

I agree. Which is why I responded to Carolina's query in the first place. Again I want to re-iterate this was my experience, YMMV.

No one is saying you can't criticize Axiom's offerings on this board. (which, I note, is different from certain other companies' boards and something I treasure about Axiom's.)

What I think people are saying, though, is that if you criticize something (be it Axiom, SVS, HSU, Magnepan, or whatever), make sure the criticism is fair and as well-tested as possible.

If I got the QS8s and I thought they had certain serious problems, I'd wonder if I was doing something wrong since lots of folks here seem to adore them and had no similar problems.

That's not to say that you shouldn't say the emperor has no clothes- if he indeed has no clothes-, but it's hard to say whether the problem you ran into was a fundamental problem with all VP150s or was due to other factors.

I have to agree with spiffnme's interpretation of this. He merely said that Tony's views were in the minority. He didn't say anything derogatory to or about Tony. Spiff's statement was factually correct.

Any negative views about the VP150 are in the minority. The same way it would be factually correct to say that negative views about Axiom speakers in general are in the minority. This does not mean that people don't like Axiom speakers. They are just in the minority.

I have probably read thousands of posts on this board the past couple of years, and since I've seen probably hundreds of people praise the VP150, and about 5-10 people express disappointment with the VP150 (including Tony), I'd feel very comfortable saying that those negative views are in the minority. Doesn't mean people didn't hear what they say they heard. These negative views are just rebutted by a larger group of people with positive views.

Back to the thread.

Since you guys seem intent on keeping this thread going, I'll bite. I did not take issue with Spiff's comment, but rather with Tom Tuttle's.

He said:

"I don't want to continue to beat what I perceive as a long-dead horse, but I also think that it does not reflect the consensus of most board members to continually reiterate your negative experience."

Which I interpret to mean: Even if someone asks a question for which you have some experience (in this case the NHT Evos vs the VP150) since the VP150 is not going to come off positively, keep your opinion to yourself.

Am I reading too much into Tom's comment?

Yes, you are reading too much into it.

I meant what I said, which fundamentally means the same thing as what Craig said.

I have no problem with you relating your honest experiences with Axiom products. Different strokes for different folks. I have no desire to perpetuate this thread.

yes, everyone should with reason express their thoughts. axioms are not for everyone. that's why there are so many buttons on the radio; we don't all have the same preferences in tunes.

I measured mine today with my SPL for about 4 1/2' in each direction from the center of the couch. I could see the needle start dropping when I moved the meter past the arm of the couch in either direction. the dropoff starts about 6" past the armrest on each side and hits -1db at about 1 foot past the armrest. The 150 is just about 10' away. It has the same exact SPL reading at all 3 seating positions on the couch, and it sounds the same at all 3 positions. My ears seem to be telling me the same thing as the meter.

I'm not sure if this is exactly what Tony tried, but I think it is. He had me worried, as I had already ordered mine when he posted his issues with the VP150. I tried it with Avia and the built in test tones on my HK630. (-10 db volume setting, calibrated all 5 channels to 85db)

Maybe I'm just a noob testing it wrong as I am definitely still in the "learning" phase here. Are -10 and 85 the correct levels to calibrate to?

I love my VP150.

Interesting, Michael. Then maybe my VP150 was defective...but Ian said it was fine. Oh well. Maybe I'm not as experienced as you guys at measuring. I've only owned an RS meter, for maybe 10...years. I guess I need to practice more. Thanks for the feedback.

Michael,
Once again i reiterate, forget about the exact dB measurements using pink noise. It is not 100% relevant with a proper range of sound tones and this is not a "problem" with the VP150.
Even the tweeters and drivers on your main speakers will produce the same SPL effect but vertically rather than horizontally.

I hear ya' Chess...

I was just trying to find out if I could duplicate the "problem" that Tony pointed out. I was only making the observation that I was unable to duplicate his results, not trying to validate the testing method itself.

I read your previous posts regarding the problems with pink noise so even if I did get the same results as Tony I wouldn't be all that upset about it. Bogus tone or not, I was unable to produce the same results as Tony. Maybe I measured wrong? Oh well. It's like being in science class in school. If 5 groups do an experiment, you can be sure that at least one of them is going to get totally whacked out results compared to the other 4 groups using the same techniques, materials, and equipment.

He did have me concerned, though. No more. My Axioms kick butt, and I am totally, completely, absolutely thrilled with them.

As a side note, last night my girl and I stopped by a home theater store about 15 miles from my house that I never even knew was there before. We spotted it on our way to dinner and stopped in. The owner spent about 45 minutes with us demoing some name brand speakers costing between $1100 and $3000 per pair. When we left we both agreed that none of them sound much, if at all better than my $800 M60s. She thought I was insane paying $400 per speaker. Now, she thinks I'm as good of a bargain shopper as her.

I'de better go truck shopping now while I have her support...

Hehe...

In reply to:

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Originally posted by Chess
Once again i reiterate, forget about the exact dB measurements using pink noise. It is not 100% relevant with a proper range of sound tones and this is not a "problem" with the VP150. Even the tweeters and drivers on your main speakers will produce the same SPL effect but vertically rather than horizontally.

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And let me reiterate, of all the centers I've had in my home NONE have demonstrated this behavior on Pink Noise or any other noise. And none have had the rather unique TWWWT arrangement of the VP150. Coincidence? Hmmmm...

Re your second point, for a seated listener, the issue of the vertical plane is irrelevant. Most speakers are meant to be listened to while seated. Moving horizontally with your left and right speakers will NOT give the db changes experienced with the VP150, which is why some recommend normally mounted mains for use as centers, and why many manufacturers such as NHT, CSW, Revel, Rocket, Infinity, Ariel, von Schweickert, etc include proper mid-ranges above or below the tweeters in their high end center channel. They do it, so you won't get these measurement anomalies that you get with the WTW or TWWWT arrangements. I'd love to see anechoic measurements of the VP150 on axis at 15, 30 and 45 to see if it demonstrates the expected suckout in this type of arrangement. You can search Stereophile Guide on-line and see legion WTW centers with this suckout. Now, maybe you'll tell me this is inaudible...I heard it.

tonygeno,
It is quite apparent you still do not understand how pink noise works and why i'm telling you this measurement you took is not all that relevant to the use of the centre channel for realistic sound reproduction (music and movies). Pink noise does NOT reproduce the same SPL through different sound ranges by its nature (see the link again with more technical info about pink noise). Since the VP150 has 2 different driver types with crossovers for different frequencies it is EXPECTED that the dB will vary from high to low frequency drivers whether it is an Axiom speaker or not.
To reiterate what Alan had posted on the subject:
"ALL speakers at the front of a room produce comb filtering and uneven response as a result. It's yet a further liability of stereo listening and is quite audible using pink noise as a test signal.... but while it's audible with pink noise, it's not a significant factor that seriously undermines our enjoyment of music, movies, or even stereo playback, nor is it identifiable using music as a test signal."

In reply to:

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Now, maybe you'll tell me this is inaudible...I heard it.

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With pink noise?
YES. IT CAN BE AUDIBLE WITH PINK NOISE.
You never measured this 'suckout' with music playing did you? Your arguments so far have only centered around this pink noise measurement.

These other centre channels you listed (and stated as having done the exact? same measurements with although you no longer own these other units to be sure) were the Axiom M2 and the NHT M5 (and also a CSW?). Unless there are other units you have not listed, the context of this message will refer to the first two speakers as centre channels in comparison.
The M5 has a WTW configuration and its "suckout" would be in the middle location while using pink noise. Not to the left or right.
The M2 would have a vertical "suckout" with pink noise, however its left and right off axis dropoff would probably be higher than the VP150 since width does make a difference the more you move off axis. Now you even stated that the M2 and the NHT both had a 1dB drop in sound as well which only proves they also have this 'suckout' effect although apparently less (2dB being a rather insignificant difference at this point).
Then you also mentioned you turned the M2 on its side. And yet you did not measure a difference in SPL as you moved from the left to the right even though the driver config goes from woofer to tweeter? This i definitely do not believe. Turning the M2 on its side takes its vertical pink noise suckout to the horizontal plane. That would only follow the laws of physics. What you never measured before left to right with the M2 vertically will be measured left to right if it is placed horizonatally.

Now as i recall, your original post had complained of a problem with a 2dB drop in sound. By the second time you spoke of this info the dB "suckout" had somehow increased to 4dB and by the last time you mentioned it the dB drop was up to 5. Is there perhaps some mild exaggeration on your behalf regarding this whole "problem"? Almost every other poster found the same 2dB drop with the VP150 (as did i) when using pink noise. I have measured no drop at all when using music. This is typical.

As for this statement:
"why many manufacturers such as NHT, CSW, Revel, Rocket, Infinity, Ariel, von Schweickert, etc include proper mid-ranges above or below the tweeters in their high end center channel. They do it, so you won't get these measurement anomalies that you get with the WTW or TWWWT arrangements"
Proper midranges?
Shall i quote Alan's statement yet again on how ALL speakers have....?

In reply to:

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You can search Stereophile Guide on-line and see legion WTW centers with this suckout.

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With pink noise?
YES. IT OCCURS WITH ALL SPEAKERS.
Shall i quote Alan again here?
Are we seeing a pattern yet?

Chess:

The NHT M5 has a 3.5 inch mid-range as well as a 1" tweeter and two 5 inch woofers. You must be confusing it with some other speaker. I have in-house an M5 (actually 5 of them) and a CSW MC500. The CSW has a 4" midrange on the same plastic baffle as a 1 inch tweeter. The baffle is rotatable. If you play it horizontally you put the tweeter above the midrange. If you put it verically, you roatate it 90 degrees, so that the tweeter is above the mid-range. i doubt CSW would have gone to his length and expense if they didn't feel it helped the sound. Again, I would love to see anechoic measurments of the VP150 at 0, 15, 30 and 45. I would bet loonies to Krispy Kremes that there is a mid-range suckout as you move off axis. Now Ian will say it's not audible. I heard it (not just with pink noise). As I moved off axis I heard a change in timbre of the voice. I attributed this to the offaxis suckout inherent in the design. I do not hear the same change in timbre with the CSW500 or the NHT M5. Have you ever lived with a center that is a 3-way design with a centrally located mid-range and tweeter? I have lived with many. I wanted to love he VP150 but it didn't work for me. It did not sound as accurate (to me) as any of a number of centers I have had in my house.

Quoting Alan is great but there are a number of writers who argue that a properly designed includes a mid-range driver to minimize suckouts. In fact, the only place where I have heard it argued that this is not important is ...here. If it makes you happy, more power to you.

Tony,
I don't doubt you believe what you have heard but a large part of my point is that what you heard seems to keep changing. Never in your previous posts did you say that you also heard this effect with music, and now all of a sudden you say you did.
Previously you had reported a 2dB SPL difference (which somehow moved up to 5) which is barely distinguishable to the human ear, and now you are saying that the timbre also changes off axis.
Can you understand how all your scattered reportings are casting doubt on your reflections about the VP150 as an ineffective center channel?
What is really going on here and what exactly have you done in the past to solidify your personal results? Did you measure the VP150 with pink noise first, detect some difference, then listen to music and say "oh ya, what's up with that?". Did you then test out the other center channels in the same way or were these center channel tests done first?
Why would Axiom sell a speaker model (that has been tested off axis both with sound measurements and as well human sound tests) that is so incredibly flawed?
They certainly do not come off as the type of company that sells by marketing and not research. In fact, if i remember correctly, the VP150 started off as a WTWTW config and the sound tests concluded that the TWWWT config was preferred by blind listening tests and by the gist of it, sound measurements as well.
Do you think Axiom has not done off axis measurements with the VP150? Why do you think they would sell this model as an improvement in soundstage dispersion over the VP100 which is a standard 3 driver config (like so many other apparently more? successful center channel companies' designs)?
Why do you think placing a tweeter above a woofer will remove this 'suckout' effect?
How do you figure placing the tweeter in the middle of a woofer config will remove this effect? Why can you not measure an off axis response with the M2 placed on its side? My M60s on their side certainly have it.

I was over at a friend's place and recently measured the off-axis response from his Tannoy center channel (a single driver). It was not a 3 driver config but the Tannoy design is unique in its sound dispersion. Nonetheless, the dB dropped rather quickly (-5dB) after moving to the far left of his couch (7 feet) and beyond, probably about 110 degree off axis. My VP150 did not. I had to move to about 130 degrees off axis and an extra 4 feet left of my couch (7 feet long so total of 11 feet) at 8 foot distance to measure another 2dB drop beyond the one already measured by all of us (total of only 4dB lost at 11 feet left of centre of VP150!!).
I would say that is a pretty impressive sound stage, far more than the single driver config. This was measured only with pink noise though as i would have had to unhook all my other speakers to isolate the center channel with music playback. With all front channels driven, there is NO loss in SPL like what is measured with pink noise isolated to one channel and this IS something that is incorporated into the idea of setting up one's HT surround system properly. EVEN if a speaker had some issue such as comb filtering, again something Alan also concurred with, the effect is minimized with the speaker setup as a whole.

I am certainly not saying you should have loved the VP150 but i'm doubtful about the dramatic sound difference (during music or movie playback) you report and the reasonings that are being presented to support it.
The only reason to think a difference exists for you and no one else comes down to the room and the dispersion of the VP150 specifically. Perhaps you have one truly unique room.

Nor have I said in the post you are quoting that I heard it with music. Please reread.

I'd love to see those anechoic measurements at 0 15 30 and 45, though.

Re why Axiom would develop a flawed center: for marketing reasons. It's tough to develop a 3-way center and have it fit under or above a TV. 2-way centers were developed for marketing and not best sonic performance reasons. If you go out a little more (outside of this forum) and read some of the center channel tests done by SGHT among others you'll actually see what I'm talking about. Two way designs with HUGE suckouts off axis.

Re the suckout, it has to do with wavelengths and driver interference. I posted the question about pink noise and driver interference on the Lexicon forum (describing my measurement results) and here are some of their comments:

"I just checked that website.... the driver layout of that speaker is going to cause all sorts of interference problems in the area the tweeters operate in. Wether or not it also does this in the woofers will depend on where they cross over. Since this is a two way speaker I'm sure the woofers are be driven very far into the region where they are comb filtering between them. They would need to be crossed over probably around 300-400hz or lower to avoid most problems. They are instead probably being run into the 2-3kHz range."

and

"The NHT Evolution series are really smartly designed, and takes into consideration these dispersion issues. I'm not surprised that you liked them. I was very shocked to see the configuration of the Axoim center channel. I don't even know what the designer was thinking. It's possible that the dispersion of the tweeters are very narrow so they don't interact very much, but this would then imply other serious problems elsewhere. The designer may have access to NRC's facilities, but a tool is only as good as its user, and for something as complicated as speaker design, many tools often lay out booby traps for their users."

Now maybe Ian is on to something, but it certainly is not a driver layout that is supported by generally accepted loudspeaker design theory.

You seem to think I have an agenda. What do you think it is? I certainly think you have an agenda: to justify your purchase and defend it against any criticism. More power to you. I am happy you like the VP150. Again, I wish I could have. I ordered the VP150 because I was thinking about moving to an Axiom system. As I stated way back when: I like to change every year or so. Variety is the spice of life, I feel. (Not in women, I've been happily married for 25 years). And I was very, very impressed with the M2i. If I could have loved the VP150, I'd be grooving to a complete Axiom setup this very instant. Unfortunately, the anomalies I heard (and measured) made it a non-starter for me. Again, if this is such a great driver layout, how come no other manufacturer has picked up on it? I think it has to do with loudspeaker design theory. What do you think?

As I've frequently pointed out, I think that the way to go is to simply put a bookshelf speaker vertically just above or just below the screen(e.g.the M2)and forget it. Again I don't know to what extent the TMMMT configuration changes the situation, but since the reference Tony makes to the SGHT tests on MTMs hasn't been illustrated, note my reply in this thread on page 2 in which I linked to an SGHT review in which measurements at various frequencies and angles demonstrated a problem with the MTM there. Tom Norton also comments there on turning the thing vertically if it had been possible and the desireability of using their smaller speaker vertically instead.

Thank you, JohnK. I would do the links, but for the life of me, can't figure out how. They don't seem to work and I went to the help section. I've got to figure them out!

Tony, click on FAQ and then on "Can I use html..." to see the form for url links or hyperlinks. Then just fool around on the preview area until you get it right.

Thanks again, John.

http://www.axiomaudio.com

By golly, I've got it!

Thanks, again.

In reply to:

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...many manufacturers such as NHT...etc include proper mid-ranges above or below the tweeters in their high end center channel. They do it, so you won't get these measurement anomalies that you get with the WTW or TWWWT arrangements...

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It's interesting that B&W uses essentially the same WTW arrangement of the VP100 in center channels up to the LCR600 S3, which is considerably more expensive than the VP150. Their specs say dispersion can vary by 2db within the LCR600 reference axis, which is about what I measured on my VP150. Just an interesting comparison; most people would consider B&Ws to be decent speakers.

Ok tony, one more round.

In reply to:

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Nor have I said in the post you are quoting that I heard it with music.

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Then if you did not hear it with music, why conclude the VP150 is faulty?
The pink noise test is not completely relevant due to its nature. Music is relevant.

In reply to:

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If you go out a little more (outside of this forum) and read some of the center channel tests done by SGHT among others you'll actually see what I'm talking about.

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If you get all your info from magazines then you really are misunderstanding alot. Magazines are not scientifically reviewed publications and their results for tests do not hold water. I read alot more outside this single forum. Do not assume i'm stuck only here at Axiom. That would be a very erroneous conclusion.

Regarding posts from other forums:

In reply to:

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I just checked that website.... the driver layout of that speaker is going to cause all sorts of interference problems in the area the tweeters operate in.

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This conclusion is based on what data? Visual assessment of the drivers?
That is truly a biased opinion if i've ever heard one.
The rest of his post from what you clipped out, does not answer anything.

As for the second posted reply:

In reply to:

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The designer may have access to NRC's facilities, but a tool is only as good as its user, and for something as complicated as speaker design, many tools often lay out booby traps for their users."

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I will be sure to let everyone know after the Axiom tour if all i see is a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters.
I will also be sure to test Ian and his skills with a measuring ruler. After 20 years of working with sound electronics with one of the most revered acoustic scientists in the field (Dr. Floyd Toole) at a very expensive government lab, yes, this guy must be right. Ian doesn't know a damn thing.
How incredibly insulting to Axiom and their engineers.

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Now maybe Ian is on to something, but it certainly is not a driver layout that is supported by generally accepted loudspeaker design theory.

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Generally accepted?
You've got to be kidding me. This poll came from where exactly?

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I certainly think you have an agenda: to justify your purchase and defend it against any criticism.

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Insulting my integrity or the integrity of anyone who made a decision to buy Axiom speakers based on their always open policy for providing useful and scientifically credible information about their products will not change the fact that you also own Axioms. Perhaps you had better return your M2s since according to the poster from the Lexicon forum, they apparently equate to nothing more than a cardboard box with some metal parts constructed by a boob.

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Unfortunately, the anomalies I heard (and measured)

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Once again, as you stated at the beginning, only heard with PINK NOISE!!!.
I refuse to try and explain that concept again.

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if this is such a great driver layout, how come no other manufacturer has picked up on it?

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The Honda Civic is probably the world's best car for gas mileage near 70mpg. How come every car maker does not make an equivalent? How come only Honda and Toyota are producing hybrids? They are also a new and great idea. If so, why haven't the other companies hopped onboard?
This argument is incredibly feeble as proof of anything. Please quit using it.

Incidentally Tony, there are alot of questions from my last post that you have not answered. Holes in the story must be filled.

Not with music, Chess. Read my post. with voice, as in dialogue, get it.

Holes in the story. I don't have the time or energy to rebutt every point you made. Because I have learned here that you've got an agenda, and that's great, and no matter what I say are you gonna be convinced. The world according to Chess. Have a nice life, and I WILL let you get in the last word. Keep your head in the sand, my friend.

Tony, discussions can be neverending.
If you decide you no longer have the energy to rebutt a point, so be it.
I still have questions i would like to have answered.
They are still there if/when you feel up to it.
I actually have more questions now that you mentioned you heard this anomaly with dialogue and pink noise but never tested with music but i will just keep them to myself i guess.

...and to think, all of this started when I asked if anyone compared NHTs to Axioms. Wow, you guys have scared me so much I think I'm going to buy the new Def Tech BP7002s and corresponding center and surrounds when they come out next month.

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Wow, you guys have scared me so much I think I'm going to buy the new Def Tech

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hehe... Don't sweat it carolina.

I'm the boob that can't measure the anomoly that science says should be there. I am in the unfortune position of having equal SPL readings across my entire seating area.

Dammit, I KNOW there's a problem in there somewhere, I just can't hear it or measure it. That really ticks me off.


I've had mine for a week. I love them.

Wow!! How did I miss this fracas?
I noticed a loss of volume at about 45+ degrees, but who gives a turd if the VP150 loses some volume far off to the sides? I paid for mine so I sit right in front of it. The old lady and her cutie pie sister sit 5-10 degrees off axis. Anybody else in the room can go rent the disc and watch it at their place.
Sister-in-law is available by the way (not that it matters, since it seems like everyone here is either married or gay).

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since it seems like everyone here is either married or gay

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Not me!!

Me neither! But I'm OLD!

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I noticed a loss of volume at about 45+ degrees, but who gives a turd if the VP150 loses some volume far off to the sides? I paid for mine so I sit right in front of it. The old lady and her cutie pie sister sit 5-10 degrees off axis. Anybody else in the room can go rent the disc and watch it at their place.

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Damn straight. If you're sitting that far off axis when watching a movie, I really doubt you're that big of an audio/videophile anyway. Who the heck watches a movie 45 degrees off axis? I don't even do that at the movie theatre unless absolutely necessary.

My VP150 demonstrated timbre/ouput changes at 15 degrees. It has been suggested that perhaps there was some weird interaction between my room and the VP150. it's possible, I guess.