Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo SACD/DVD-A with an Integrated Amp

If you have a universal player and want to hook it up to an integrated amp just for two-channel listening, can you take advantage of the stereo SACD and two channel DVD-Audio tracks as well as redbook CD? Do you need to hook up the FL and FR channels from the multi out on the universal to another set of inputs other than CD input on the amp to get the SACD/DVD-A playback? Also, how does adding in a sub work?

Dermott, since nobody who actually does this has replied, I'll give you my view. If you mean can those SACD and DVD-A tracks be played through an integrated stereo amp, the answer is that sure they can; the left and right front analog outputs would be connected to the CD inputs on the amp as usual(the player would select what tracks are being played) and the sub out would be connected with a coaxial cable to a powered sub. Whether there would be any noticeable "advantage" would be another matter. The main attraction of these formats is the possibility of multi-channel surround music play. Re-mixing and re-mastering for these formats may or may not result in better sound than on an old CD of the same performance. Stereo playback may or may not be noticeably better.

Dermott, I think the answer is yes, providing you use the *analog* FL and FR inputs on your integrated amp. They're usually labeled "multi-ch analog in", or "6 ch analog in", or "5.1 analog in".

You can't use the digital optical or coax input and get the high resolution SACD/DVD-A data. This also means you can't use your receiver's bass management for analog inputs. Many newer SACD or universal players have bass management built in -- check your manual.

SACD and DVD-A are different: SACD may have a "Redbook" CD layer, in which case you can use digital in, but it will only function like a CD -- no high res audio, no surround. You would get the benefit of any remix/remaster work done for the Redbook layer, the same as a remastered stereo CD.

DVD-A has a Digital Dolby or DTS 5.1 track, so you can use digital input for that, and still get surround, bass management, and higher resolution (than CD, but not DVD-A levels). Your receiver can possibly "fold down" 5.1 to stereo if you don't have surround or a sub -- check your manual.

The thing to remember: high-res SACD or DVD-A requires analog. You can't use the coax or digital connection for this. The SACD Redbook layer can use digital, as can the DVD-A DD/DTS 5.1 track.

If you connect the FL and FR analog outputs of your universal player to the FL and FR analog inputs of your receiver, and configure your *player's* (not receiver's) speaker configuration and bass management for 2 ch stereo, it should work.

Thanks for the replies guys! I didn't think anyone was gonna jump in.

So for the time being, I would be running this player to an older Prologic only 5 channel amp that does have a 5.1 channel input (I still would be using it only for stereo use). I should just have one pair of analog cables from the player's FL & FR going to the FL & FR 5.1 input on the amp and I should be set for both Redbook and high-rez stuff for 2-channel right? In this case it is the DACs in the player handling the decoding/conversion duties rather than the ones in the amp (I would assume the DACs in the new player would be much better than an old Sony Best Buy amp, right?) Later, if I upgrade to a nicer integrated amp, I could be doing the same thing, just have the analog pair go into the CD inputs on the integrated. I should not even have to do anything with the 2 channel outputs on the player, right? Sorry if I am just asking the same questions overs again I just want to make sure I've got it right in my head before I start down this path.

Re "setting for both Redbook and hi-rez stuff for 2-channel"

You'd set your player's (not receiver's) speaker config for 2-ch. If you have a sub and if the player's speaker config and bass management supports 2.1, then set it for that.

Re "is it...the DACs in the player handling the decoding...rather than the once in the amp"

Yes, but for SACD and DVD-A hi-res data, the player DACs almost always handle this, even for brand new integrated amps. Due to piracy concerns most high-res players only output hi-res in analog.

Re "if I upgrade to a nicer integrated amp...just have the analog pair go to the CD inputs on the integrated"

No, the player analog out will generally go to the multichannel or 5.1 analog inputs on the receiver, even if you only have stereo outputs (FR & FL cables). If you don't want high-res and if the SACD disc has a Redbook layer (aka hybrid disc), you can use a single digital cable between receiver and player. Likewise for DVD-As with a DD/DTS 5.1 track, the digital cable will work.

I think that's how it works. If anyone knows differently, please correct me.

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Likewise for DVD-As with a DD/DTS 5.1 track, the digital cable will work.

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So far with dvda and the digital connection to my receiver, i have had no DTS or DD signal detected. Maybe i need more dvda for testing.

Dermott, first on terminology, when you said "integrated amp" I took it to be just a 2-channel preamp/amp, but you've got a 5.1 receiver with all those inputs, not what's usually called an integrated amp. So, disregard the point about the regular CD inputs and follow Joe's advice. Incidentally, no, you can't assume that the DACs in the new equipment would be audibly better at all.

Chess, my understanding(I don't do DVD-As)is the same as Joe's; using the digital connection, you should get DD or DTS 5.1 on any DVD-A(without any "higher resolution", if it would ever be audible). I suppose re-study your player manual on the point.

Chess, nested deep within your player's menu system, there's probably an option to enable DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 output. The default mode is usually off (PCM only). This will keep your receiver from receiving DD or DTS signals from DVD-As.

Why do player mfgs do that? It seems illogical but is probably for backward compatibility with older receivers that don't have on-board DD/DTS 5.1 decoding.

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Chess, my understanding(I don't do DVD-As)is the same as Joe's; using the digital connection, you should get DD or DTS 5.1 on any DVD-A(without any "higher resolution", if it would ever be audible). I suppose re-study your player manual on the point.

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My player has limited options, i've used them all. The manual is quite horrible and short on descriptions. The receiver just won't pick up a DTS or DD track but its possible that my dvda may not have it. It does not say it does anywhere on the boxes. Maybe this is not coded onto each dvda.
The multi channel sound otherwise is truly fantastic. Have to tweak the dvdp delay settings though. Makes it difficult if your surrounds are not the same distance apart.

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Chess, nested deep within your player's menu system, there's probably an option to enable DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 output. The default mode is usually off (PCM only). This will keep your receiver from receiving DD or DTS signals from DVD-As.

Why do player mfgs do that? It seems illogical but is probably for backward compatibility with older receivers that don't have on-board DD/DTS 5.1 decoding.

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I have looked, believe me.
The notion of a user having to select such items as "bitstream" or PCM is very annoying. An auto detect is a very logical step to make.

Chess, it sounds absurd but you might have to contact the manufacturer. It's conceivable they have a DIP switch or jumper inside, or a ROM firmware update that does that.

Sony/Phillips probably didn't do auto detect because that would require a bi-directional handshake. S/PDIF (Toslink & Coax) is a serial, *unidirectional* interface, so they can't get an ACK from the receiver.

The last three players I've had all defaulted to PCM and all required a fairly obscure, deeply nested menu change to enable DD/DTS 5.1 output on the digital S/PDIF interface. It took me hrs of internet research to figure this out the first time. It wasn't even in the manual that time. Yes, unbelievable.

Well joema i'm open to options.
My dvdp is the Panasonic CP72.

I will double check that my short list of dvda even have the DD or DTS tracks on them. It is possible that they do not.

Sorry for the confusion. I do understand the difference between an integrated amp and a 5.1 receiver. It's my fault for not really laying out my plan for you guys. It is to first pick up a Pioneer 563A and run it through my old Sony 5.1 receiver only for stereo playback, with the intention of upgarding the amp to a higher quality integrated amp down the road. I just wanted to see if the player would function the same way with an integrated as it would a full home theater receiver, that's all. Sorry again for the confusion.

I have a 563, and I think you have to go into a menu and tell it what track to default to. it may be playing the high rez 5.1 track, which would only output an analog signal from the multi-outs. Most DVD-a's have a high res stereo track that will output through the analog stereo outs, as well as a DD or DTS track that will output through the digital out. All hybrid SACD's have a CD compatible track that would also go out through the analog stereo outs.

In the Initial Settings menu, there is a DTS out setting...if your receiver can decode DTS this should be set to DTS. If your receiver cannot decode DTS, it should be set to DTS>PCM. under the Linear PCM out setting, you may need to set to Down Sample On if your receiver cannot handle 96khz audio.

In the DVD Playback mode, you will need to set it to DVD-video to have the 563 play the DD 5.1 track instead of the hi-res 5.1 track. Under SACD plaback, you will need to set it to CD area.

All the above is assuming your 563 is connected to your receiver by a digital optical or coaxial connection. I believe the above will also work if you are using the analog stereo connections.

Mark

joema, Johnk,
I got it sorted out.
Oddly enough there were no settings for anything in the dvdp "audio" section of the setup for the DD/DTS part of a dvd-a disc and there were no instructions in the manual on what to do specifically with dvd-a discs and required dvdp settings.
I took some time this evening and went back into the menus of the dvdp to poke around and for the life of me i could not figure out what might turn on that DTS/DD track for the dvd-a disc. Then, in the final section of the dvdp menu under "other" there was a switch for dvd-video to either ON or OFF. The default was OFF.
Why?
Who knows.
What does dvd-v have to do with dvd-a?
Again, i don't know. To me this is highly illogical. I can play the DTS/DD track from a dvd disc yet the DTS/DD track from a dvd-a disc needs to have my dvdp set to dvd-video to ON. Try saying that ten times fast.
Once i switched the dvd-video setting to on, the optical digital connection to the receiver now recognized the DD track from the dvd-a disc and voila, playback.
{sigh}
Someone really needs a course in technical writing for electronics manuals. Why would they even bother putting in such a useless on/off option in the menu? Why would anyone ever want to turn it off?

Now that i have both signals up and running, i am going to switch between my dvd digital connection and the cd analog connections to listen for differences in the DD version vs. the 'high res' version. I'm curious about the potential difference in sound quality, if any. This one should be relatively easy to setup blind.

Chess I checked the on-line manual for the Panasonic DVD CP72. It's at http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/DVDCP72.PDF

Under the player's Audio menu, there apparently are settings for Dolby Digital and DTS bistream/PCM, plus a master setting for Digital Audio on/off.

It says the DD factory preset is bistream (not PCM), but DTS is preset to PCM. In theory if digital out was enabled and you play a DVD-A with DD 5.1, you should get DD 5.1 signals on your receiver. Virtually all DVD-As have DD 5.1. However you might have to manually select this when playing the DVD-A, similar to a DVD movie.

Good you found that, chess. I wonder if the answer to why the default on that is set to off can be implied from the next-to-last paragraph of Mark's reply. He says that when he sets it to DVD Video on his 563 that it plays it "instead" of the DVD-A track. Does that mean that with it set to on, it automatically plays only the DD5.1 track and that to get analog output for "high res" you have to switch it back to off? You'll find out, and if so that's why the default is DVD-Video off.

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Does that mean that with it set to on, it automatically plays only the DD5.1 track and that to get analog output for "high res" you have to switch it back to off?

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Actually no John. I can get both the high res or DD tracks without changing any menu settings.

What i have setup is this:
Onkyo receiver optical 1 slot saved for "DVD" selector
Analog ins, multichannel saved for "CD" selector

When i first played the dvd-a disc, i could get the multichannel analog working just fine. When i switched the selector over to DVD for the optical connection, i got DPLII, not DD or DTS. Only after turning the dvd-video option on in the dvdp, did DD come through on the "DVD" selector (optical digital connection).
Hence, at the present time, i can switch betwen the high res dvd-a format and the DD 5.1 format simply by changing my receiver selector from CD to DVD and truly A/B the 2 formats.
So again, why this option was defaulted to off in the dvdp menu, i have no idea. Nor do i completely understand why the dvd-v setting should be the influence for a DD/DTS track to play from a dvd-a when a normal dvd disc with DD is already auto recognized by my Onkyo receiver.

Now i can play dvd-a, dvd or cds through either the receiver DAC or the dvdp DAC for DD/DTS, regular stereo or the high res multichannel just by pushing 2 buttons (the selector and a multichannel to regular analog button).