 Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Mar 2002
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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First we have those who deny reality in order to avoid the difficult moral issues ... i.e., those who say torture is not effective. This is politically correct nonsense. No one can resist torture for long.
Once we acknowledge that torture is effective, we are then confronted with the moral questions which challenge smug and shallow self righteous conclusions.
It is easy to conceive of situations which force us to weigh terrible alternatives.
Last edited by 2x6spds; 05/05/11 10:25 PM.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Jun 2007
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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First we have those who deny reality in order to avoid the difficult moral issues ... i.e., those who say torture is not effective. This is politically correct nonsense. No one can resist torture for long.
Once we acknowledge that torture is effective, we are then confronted with the moral questions which challenge smug and shallow self righteous conclusions.
It is easy to conceive of situations which force us to weigh terrible alternatives. It's effective? Really? So Matthew Alexander, a former senior military interrogator who conducted or supervised over 1,300 interrogations in Iraq is full of shit and you have first hand experience that proves otherwise? He was interviewed yesterday- link . Also, if you are fine with your country bending the rules of international law or laws of war etc., are you okay with other countries doing the same to your countries servicemen and women? Do you apply the same standards to yourself? If you don't acknowledge uniformity, then you are being self-righteous.
The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Jun 2007
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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Excerpt-
"My argument is pretty simple, Amy. I don’t torture because it doesn’t work. I don’t torture, because it’s immoral, and it’s against the law, and it’s inconsistent with my oath of office, in which I swore to defend the Constitution of the United States. And it’s also inconsistent with American principles. So, my primary argument against torture is one of morality, not one of efficacy.
You know, if torture did work and we could say it worked 100 percent of the time, I still wouldn’t use it. The U.S. Army Infantry, when it goes out into battle and it faces resistance, it doesn’t come back and ask for the permission to use chemical weapons. I mean, chemical weapons are extremely effective—we could say almost 100 percent effective. And yet, we don’t use them. But we make this—carve out this special space for interrogators and say that, well, they’re different, so they can violate the laws of war if they face obstacles.
And that’s an insult to American interrogators, who are more than capable of defeating our enemies and al-Qaeda in the battle of wits in the interrogation room. And American interrogators have proven this time and time again, from World War II through Vietnam, through Panama, through the First Gulf War. And let’s go back to the successes of American interrogators. You know, American interrogators found Saddam Hussein without using torture. We found and killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda Iraq, which helped turn the Iraq war, without using torture. And numerous other leaders that we have found and captured—another guy named Zafar, that I describe in my book—all these successes have come without the use of torture."
The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,749 Likes: 37
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Mar 2002
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Yes, anyone who says torture is ineffective is wrong. You don't think you could withstand torture interrogation, do you?
I'll assume you did not understand my post when you suggest I approve of torture.
I notice that you avoid the moral issue raised by my hypothetical. I'm not surprised.
By the way, do you make a distinction between enhanced interrogation and torture?
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Jan 2010
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aficionado
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aficionado
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My dad always told me don't fight... but if it going to happen, hit hard as you can, hit first and don't stop till its over and you win .. it's not a game, a contest, if your that far in, your not there to be fair, it's to win (war)
He also said your rights (and your option) extend as far as the end of the other man's nose
Perfect? no. good advice? I liked it! was he a good father? nah but I liked this advice!
Jeff
Last edited by wordgasm; 05/06/11 12:44 AM.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Ah yes, the old ticking time bomb scenario. A good plot device for poorly written dramas. The problem here is that no such scenario (of note) has ever occurred in the real world. It just doesn't make sense. Why would one person only know the "key" information? And if you've got him in a bunker, then you're safe from him? If there are others, wouldn't they activate their device the second their comrade was captured/missing/etc. And when do ACTUAL terrorists hide giant WMDs with TIMERS? What sense does that make? If you have them, you set them off immediately, or maybe you trigger it by remote for some sort of ransom thingy? Regardless, the ticking time bomb thing is a device used strictly by lazy writers to give a fixed drama point and tension in their stories. It's never happened in real life, so your construct isn't applicable to our real life debate.
Torture doesn't work. Fact. Why? the information is gathered is completely unreliable. People will say anything to make the torture stop. They'll tell the truth. They'll lie. They'll tell you what they think you want you to hear. THEY WILL SAY ANYTHING. And since you don't know the answer to the question (that's why you're torturing them) you have no way to verify the accuracy of any of it.
As noted above, people who perform the actual interrogations say torture doesn't work. Many more sources, I'm not gonna bother to find them. Please feel free to do so yourself.
(And all of this without even dipping into the moral side of the argument)
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Jan 2010
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aficionado
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aficionado
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Torture doesn't work.
I disagree I'll go out of true character and say what I know is the truth, If I have to listen to rap at a stop light to determine whether or not I think the offender thinks I like rap music or to make it stop!
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116
connoisseur
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connoisseur
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I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,749 Likes: 37
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,749 Likes: 37 |
Ah yes, the old ticking time bomb scenario. A good plot device for poorly written dramas. The problem here is that no such scenario (of note) has ever occurred in the real world. It just doesn't make sense. Why would one person only know the "key" information? And if you've got him in a bunker, then you're safe from him? If there are others, wouldn't they activate their device the second their comrade was captured/missing/etc. And when do ACTUAL terrorists hide giant WMDs with TIMERS? What sense does that make? If you have them, you set them off immediately, or maybe you trigger it by remote for some sort of ransom thingy? Regardless, the ticking time bomb thing is a device used strictly by lazy writers to give a fixed drama point and tension in their stories. It's never happened in real life, so your construct isn't applicable to our real life debate.
Torture doesn't work. Fact. Why? the information is gathered is completely unreliable. People will say anything to make the torture stop. They'll tell the truth. They'll lie. They'll tell you what they think you want you to hear. THEY WILL SAY ANYTHING. And since you don't know the answer to the question (that's why you're torturing them) you have no way to verify the accuracy of any of it.
As noted above, people who perform the actual interrogations say torture doesn't work. Many more sources, I'm not gonna bother to find them. Please feel free to do so yourself.
(And all of this without even dipping into the moral side of the argument) Like I thought, Craig. You can't answer the question. Your insult about poor plot devices notwithstanding, or how unlikely the scenario, you avoid the point, because you cannot deal with it in an honest way. As to your statement that torture doesn't work, that people will say anything to make it stop, if you don't think that can be used to obtain totally accurate information, you are not thinking clearly. You are merely spouting cliches. Really, think about! Put yourself in the position of a person being tortured for information. Every time you bullsh!t, you are forced to endure the unendurable. How many times, before the pure, clear truth emerges? Be honest.
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
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Re: Bin Laden is Dead
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Joined: Jul 2010
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No one can resist torture for long. Not true...THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
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