 Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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I have to say that I'm rather excited and shocked about the recently unveiled budget plan from the "Gang of Six." Details here and here With support for it from Obama Excited is actually the wrong word but I'm behind this plan. Mainly because it calls for real cuts in the budget and real tax reform (lower rates with removal of many deductions/loopholes). Not perfect but more than I would have thought Democrats would go along with. Anyone holding out for the perfect bill will die disappointed. It's slightly worrisome that the plan is more of an outline and the individual committees would figure out the details but again, I don't know how we could possibly expect better from our government. Just curious what others think about it.
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 Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Gee, Ben, you sure like to live dangerously. Remember Micah?
Seriously, though, I'm with you on this one, as much as I can be. I'm just still annoyed that all the "hope" we were supposed to have for everything has now been reduced to the "hope" that they'll agree on anything that might get something to happen.
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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axiomite
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axiomite
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It will be interesting to see if a deal gets done or if partisan politics from either/both sides kill the plan.
Personally, in the long run I think you guys are in for higher taxes. Big deficit holes are easy to dig, but not so easy to fill in. Canada went through this 20 years ago.
Fred
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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aficionado
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Trouble is, whatever the final bill is, they will still have to get a majority vote from the House of Representatives that is Republican dominated and where the "Tea Party" group sits. It isn't over yet.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2006
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Yes, casey01, you are on target. Substitute "cult fringe" for "Tea Party" and you'll see that Senator Harkin said the same thing today:"The sad thing is America no longer has a two-party system," Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) said at a press conference Wednesday. "One of our two parties has morphed into kind of a cult driven by a singular fixation and obsession: preserving tax breaks for the wealthy at all costs ..." "The fight is not between Democrats and Republicans, it's Republicans and their cult fringe, as I refer to them out there. You'll find all sorts of Republicans who are willing to let this country go down the tubes on their ideological ideal."
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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axiomite
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axiomite
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... Not perfect but more than I would have thought Democrats would go along with. One of the most interesting things about politics is how each side in a two-party system can be so convinced it is right and that the other side is just so totally wrong, misguided, and even dangerous. More on that in a minute. I try not to cheerlead too much in politics, because I realize that a lot of it is disingenuous BS. I have to step back once in a while and take a breath so I don't get too wrapped up in it. It can be infuriating. I don't know how some people do it. Their tolerance for BS is higher than mine, I guess. That said, this Robert Reich column from 7-17-2011 rang true to me. Even more so, this Paul Krugman column from 7-14-2011 has some really spot-on perspective, I think.
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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devotee
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As always, the devil will be in the fine details, especially once this thing goes to committee. Committee is where the real ugly "sausage-making" takes place (witness the bad-faith negotiations over the health care bill), and there's a lot here that will be pretty difficult to get through Congress.
Getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction (even partially) and taxing health benefits both make absolute sense policy-wise. The interest deduction on mortgages was a key fuel for the housing bubble, and is incredibly regressive. Likewise, taxing health benefits *might* stem the growth in unnecessary health expenditures, and allow wages to grow again. That being said, it's a hard sell on Democrats, especially House Dems if the Tea-Party crowd won't play nice.
One hopes that the bill will specifically get rid of the moronic loophole that lets Wall Street types tax their income as capital gains, seeing as how so much of what Wall Street does is not much more than legalized gambling, trying to create money out of thin air. I'll believe it when I see it...as Sen. Durbin said of the bankers on Capitol Hill "it's like they own the place"
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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connoisseur
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Two party system.... I hate it. Long gone are the days of voting FOR someone, and it's been replaced by voting AGAINST someone.
George Washington summed it up best for me.....
"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissention, which in different ages & countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders & miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security & repose in the absolute power of an Individual: and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty." — George Washington, September 19, 1796
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Two party system.... I hate it. Long gone are the days of voting FOR someone, and it's been replaced by voting AGAINST someone.
The last time I remember people actually voting FOR someone, was when Carter ran for president; and you can see where that got us.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jul 2004
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connoisseur
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My sister #2 of 5 was one of Carter's advisers. She quit, without a notice. Don't feel bad about your choice, my sister's IQ is north of 180.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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aficionado
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Unfortunately, the prime element in US politics which will ALWAYS dictate the agenda is the power and influence of the lobbyists, corporations and the enormous sums of money attached to all of it which in turn really determines policy. The groups in question during these debates are already jockeying for position and spending loads of money. Be it healthcare, defence spending, social security, the financial industry, oil companies and list goes on and on, it is easy to notice that during these debates on major budget items, they tinker and offer lip service but nothing really ever changes. After all, the politicians don't want to "bite the hand that feeds them". Despite the rhetoric, tax loopholes will never disappear either because that is why corporations, among other things, spend all that campaign finance money. The "Average Joe" doesn't have a chance.
Until the enormous sums of money required to run for office(along with the strings attached for that money) in the US are drastically reduced and the system is overhauled, don't expect any changes in policy and tone any time in the foreseeable future. The "perks" of power in US politics are just too good and as we can see no matter the consequences, these "perks" for most politicians are maintained at the expense of the American taxpayer and economy.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311
devotee
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It's funny how all these teabagger bozos didn't seemed too concerned with spending and deficits when George Bush was borrowing and spending money on two unnecessary (and illegal) wars while giving tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. We should just return to the tax rates we had under their god Ronnie Reagan (an Alzheimer addled ex-actor and terrible president). Or how about Clinton era tax rates? You know, back when the economy was booming and we had a surplus and yet the rich still got rich! It's a lie that cutting corporate taxes create jobs. If that were true, where are they? They've (tax rates) been the lowest they've ever been for the last 10 years. Corporations outsource those "jobs" and have pretty much killed the middle class and American industry. Obama has a lot more patience than I do with the current crop of Republicans. They want the economy to tank because that's their only chance of winning in 2012. But they won't. I think America is (finally) waking up now that News Corp and Murdoch are being exposed for the corrupt scum bags they are. The right wing propaganda that they peddle is becoming quite stale. Getting rid of Fox news will go a long way in restoring the political climate and rational debate in this country. If McCain/Palin (god forbid) had won, Osama Bin Laden would still be alive and GM would be long gone. It's also funny how the right thinks that Obama is a socialist since he's a centrist moderate and more conservative than Nixon (who would be considered a commie by the wing-nuts on the right today) was! 30 years of conservative trickle down theory has almost destroyed this country. I wish president Obama WAS a socialist! Then maybe we would all have affordable universal healthcare like every other civilized country in the world. But god forbid we should turn the USA into one of those horrible socialist hell-holes like Sweden, Canada, Norway, Germany, etc.! Oddly, those countries have a higher standard of living and better literacy rates. History keeps repeating though... Republicans get into power, fu#k up everything, then a Democrat gets elected and has to clean up the mess they made. Look it up. History and facts are on my side here. But, as you probably know, "facts" do have a liberal bias..  I also have no love for the Democratic party, they've let me down many times. They've been acting like Republican-lite ever since the Reagan era. Good cop to the Republican's bad cop... but both are cops and are going to bust you! Bill Clinton was a pretty great Republican president though...  However, I do think Obama is one of the best presidents this country has ever had. And I believe Republicans know it, that's why they hate him so much. He continuously schools their asses with smarts, competence, decency and statesmanship. Yeah, I think that liberal policies are what helped make this country great. I also appreciate some good conservative ideas. I love Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower. Even William F. Buckley was a reasonable and intellectual conservative. Compare him to Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh. I'm just a reluctant capitalist bleeding heart liberal and I love freedom and America. I want ALL Americans to do well, but the left AND right have to work TOGETHER or else this great nation (empire) will fall just like my people's did, the Romans (and we were the baddest motherfu#kers of all)
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Mar 2010
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connoisseur
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"You guys" are so on top of American politics, for real, no kidding. I'm always impressed and embarrassed.
You should move here and help. We promise we won't throw you out of Acadia again (joking)! However, anyone who does not speak accentless American English will be remanded to Louisiana---direclty this time (not joking). OK, joking still.
There! Ya happy now?
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2007
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Interesting articles JP. My new favorite quote: "Washington has gone from theater to reality TV"
Fred
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2009
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devotee
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devotee
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“Politics is the entertainment branch of industry.”
-- Frank Zappa
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jul 2008
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aficionado
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"You guys" are so on top of American politics, for real, no kidding. I'm always impressed and embarrassed.
You should move here and help. We promise we won't throw you out of Acadia again (joking)! However, anyone who does not speak accentless American English will be remanded to Louisiana---direclty this time (not joking). OK, joking still.
There! Ya happy now? Bob, sometimes when you can view situations from farther afield, they seem much clearer than when you are right in the middle of it. It is interesting(and scary) to note when I happened to be watching a news show tonight that there are a group in the HoR(I would expect mostly tea partiers and extreme right wing Republicans) who they nickname "Deadenders". These are a group who really believe that they were elected in order to NOT compromise on any issue and are not concerned if they are re-elected. Now that's scary!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,703
connoisseur
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Yes, casey01, you are on target. Substitute "cult fringe" for "Tea Party" and you'll see that Senator Harkin said the same thing today:"The sad thing is America no longer has a two-party system," Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) said at a press conference Wednesday. "One of our two parties has morphed into kind of a cult driven by a singular fixation and obsession: preserving tax breaks for the wealthy at all costs ..." "The fight is not between Democrats and Republicans, it's Republicans and their cult fringe, as I refer to them out there. You'll find all sorts of Republicans who are willing to let this country go down the tubes on their ideological ideal." Two party system.... I hate it. Long gone are the days of voting FOR someone, and it's been replaced by voting AGAINST someone. The two party system that has evolved over modern times has not served us well. I've always thought Harkin was a tool and his recent statement reinforces that for me. I think if we could scrap the primary voting system and replace it all with a general election run off we'd be so much better off. It's the closest thing to being able to vote FOR someone instead of simply voting against the other.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,703
connoisseur
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Joined: Feb 2004
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It's funny how all these teabagger bozos didn't seemed too concerned with spending and deficits when George Bush was borrowing and spending money on two unnecessary (and illegal) wars while giving tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. We should just return to the tax rates we had under their god Ronnie Reagan (an Alzheimer addled ex-actor and terrible president). Or how about Clinton era tax rates? You know, back when the economy was booming and we had a surplus and yet the rich still got rich! It's a lie that cutting corporate taxes create jobs. If that were true, where are they? They've (tax rates) been the lowest they've ever been for the last 10 years. Corporations outsource those "jobs" and have pretty much killed the middle class and American industry. Obama has a lot more patience than I do with the current crop of Republicans. They want the economy to tank because that's their only chance of winning in 2012. But they won't. I think America is (finally) waking up now that News Corp and Murdoch are being exposed for the corrupt scum bags they are. The right wing propaganda that they peddle is becoming quite stale. Getting rid of Fox news will go a long way in restoring the political climate and rational debate in this country. If McCain/Palin (god forbid) had won, Osama Bin Laden would still be alive and GM would be long gone. It's also funny how the right thinks that Obama is a socialist since he's a centrist moderate and more conservative than Nixon (who would be considered a commie by the wing-nuts on the right today) was! 30 years of conservative trickle down theory has almost destroyed this country. I wish president Obama WAS a socialist! Then maybe we would all have affordable universal healthcare like every other civilized country in the world. But god forbid we should turn the USA into one of those horrible socialist hell-holes like Sweden, Canada, Norway, Germany, etc.! Oddly, those countries have a higher standard of living and better literacy rates. History keeps repeating though... Republicans get into power, fu#k up everything, then a Democrat gets elected and has to clean up the mess they made. Look it up. History and facts are on my side here. But, as you probably know, "facts" do have a liberal bias.. I also have no love for the Democratic party, they've let me down many times. They've been acting like Republican-lite ever since the Reagan era. Good cop to the Republican's bad cop... but both are cops and are going to bust you! Bill Clinton was a pretty great Republican president though... However, I do think Obama is one of the best presidents this country has ever had. And I believe Republicans know it, that's why they hate him so much. He continuously schools their asses with smarts, competence, decency and statesmanship. Yeah, I think that liberal policies are what helped make this country great. I also appreciate some good conservative ideas. I love Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower. Even William F. Buckley was a reasonable and intellectual conservative. Compare him to Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh. heh, ya I pretty much completely disagree with every single thing you just said (Obama the best, Reagan the worst??? Sorry but LOL!)... I'm just a reluctant capitalist bleeding heart liberal and I love freedom and America. I want ALL Americans to do well, but the left AND right have to work TOGETHER or else this great nation (empire) will fall just like my people's did, the Romans (and we were the baddest motherfu#kers of all) This we can agree on however!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,703
connoisseur
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One of the most interesting things about politics is how each side in a two-party system can be so convinced it is right and that the other side is just so totally wrong, misguided, and even dangerous. More on that in a minute. I completely agree. I try not to cheerlead too much in politics, because I realize that a lot of it is disingenuous BS. I have to step back once in a while and take a breath so I don't get too wrapped up in it. It can be infuriating. I don't know how some people do it. Their tolerance for BS is higher than mine, I guess. I agree with that as well. I'll take your Reich and Krugman and raise you this Mariotti
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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They need to take the federal employee pay and retirement benefits off the chopping block in my opinion....Shouldnt be a part of any debt deal
-David
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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Joined: Jul 2004
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It's funny how all these teabagger bozos didn't seemed too concerned with spending and deficits when George Bush was borrowing and spending money on two unnecessary (and illegal) wars while giving tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. We should just return to the tax rates we had under their god Ronnie Reagan (an Alzheimer addled ex-actor and terrible president). Or how about Clinton era tax rates? You know, back when the economy was booming and we had a surplus and yet the rich still got rich! It's a lie that cutting corporate taxes create jobs. If that were true, where are they? They've (tax rates) been the lowest they've ever been for the last 10 years. Corporations outsource those "jobs" and have pretty much killed the middle class and American industry. Obama has a lot more patience than I do with the current crop of Republicans. They want the economy to tank because that's their only chance of winning in 2012. But they won't. I think America is (finally) waking up now that News Corp and Murdoch are being exposed for the corrupt scum bags they are. The right wing propaganda that they peddle is becoming quite stale. Getting rid of Fox news will go a long way in restoring the political climate and rational debate in this country. If McCain/Palin (god forbid) had won, Osama Bin Laden would still be alive and GM would be long gone. It's also funny how the right thinks that Obama is a socialist since he's a centrist moderate and more conservative than Nixon (who would be considered a commie by the wing-nuts on the right today) was! 30 years of conservative trickle down theory has almost destroyed this country. I wish president Obama WAS a socialist! Then maybe we would all have affordable universal healthcare like every other civilized country in the world. But god forbid we should turn the USA into one of those horrible socialist hell-holes like Sweden, Canada, Norway, Germany, etc.! Oddly, those countries have a higher standard of living and better literacy rates. History keeps repeating though... Republicans get into power, fu#k up everything, then a Democrat gets elected and has to clean up the mess they made. Look it up. History and facts are on my side here. But, as you probably know, "facts" do have a liberal bias.. I also have no love for the Democratic party, they've let me down many times. They've been acting like Republican-lite ever since the Reagan era. Good cop to the Republican's bad cop... but both are cops and are going to bust you! Bill Clinton was a pretty great Republican president though... However, I do think Obama is one of the best presidents this country has ever had. And I believe Republicans know it, that's why they hate him so much. He continuously schools their asses with smarts, competence, decency and statesmanship. Yeah, I think that liberal policies are what helped make this country great. I also appreciate some good conservative ideas. I love Teddy Roosevelt and Dwight Eisenhower. Even William F. Buckley was a reasonable and intellectual conservative. Compare him to Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh. I'm just a reluctant capitalist bleeding heart liberal and I love freedom and America. I want ALL Americans to do well, but the left AND right have to work TOGETHER or else this great nation (empire) will fall just like my people's did, the Romans (and we were the baddest motherfu#kers of all) You do your liberal party proud with this spew of ignorant nonsense and name calling.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Mar 2010
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connoisseur
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[/quote] You do your liberal party proud with this spew of ignorant nonsense and name calling. [/quote]
Umm, isn't that pretty close to name calling?
When you started a 4th of July thread, Michael, you began it by reproducing a Reagan speech. Do you realize that you instantly politicized the thread out of the gate? That's like dumping a load of bricks on a shrew to make a point.
Some people who are not white, not male, not middle class, not straight, not Christian and not native born have no warm and fuzzy's about Ronnie.
Then I got taken down for making a joke and "ruining" the sanctity of the Holyday, which apprently, was not supposed to be MY holiday.
Everyone's thoughts are valid and deserve a forum. We just need to be more mindful that we each do not come from the same Bolivian Vicuna lineage as Cam's family.
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
That headspace is pretty much where I was way back when when you and I butted heads, Mike.  Perhaps he'll learn. Politics is a lot like driving a car and getting road rage. You strap on your "dogma suit" and feel kind of invincible. You say and do things that you might not otherwise do, and you forget there are real people in those other dogma suits that keep getting in your way.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,471
axiomite
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axiomite
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Nicely put. Look who's all mature 'n' stuff. Though I must say that I found myself nodding in agreement with just about everything Terry said ...
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,488
axiomite
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axiomite
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I don't know why you guys do this to yourselves and each other.
bibere usque ad hilaritatem
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458 |
Tom and I will be over there having a beer.
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 18,044 |
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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connoisseur
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connoisseur
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Michael Pineda has a nasty fastball and slider.
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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devotee
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devotee
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311 |
heh, ya I pretty much completely disagree with every single thing you just said (Obama the best, Reagan the worst??? Sorry but LOL!)... You're right. I apologize for my poor writing there. I didn't mean to say Obama was the best president we have/had, I should have stated that I think he has the potential to be one of the greatest president this country has had. Obviously, we'll have to see how that turns out, won't we? And I certainly didn't mean to imply that Reagan was the worst president of the United States (20th century) that we've ever had. That distinction goes solely to George W. Bush. But, if you are an intellectually honest person of whatever political leanings, you already know that. But back to Ronald Reagan... "Facts are stupid things" -- Ronald Reagan  I've read somewhere that, Nixon broke the heart of the American dream and that Ronald Reagan broke it's back. I truly believe that. His administration helped gut the middle class. The deregulation, union busting, the "voodoo" economy, S&L meltdown, etc. (I won't go into the Iran contra scandal and the other numerous criminal activities of his administration  ) In doing some research I find that when Reagan came into office we were the largest exporter of manufacturing goods and the largest importer of raw materials on the planet... and the largest creditor. More people owed us money than anybody else in the world. Now, just 41 years later, we're the largest importer of finished goods, manufactured goods; the largest exporter of raw materials (which is kind of the definition of a third-world nation) and we're the most in-debt of any country in the world. This is the absolute consequence of Reaganomics. We can only speculate on the future of the economy and on what Obama’s performance may be. However, speculation about Republican policies is unnecessary. Recent history gives us an extensive record of what a Republican president and Senate would do and what the results would be. Under the last three Republican presidents, budget deficits have exploded. No balanced budgets were proposed by any of them during their combined 20 years in the White House. In fact, most of the $10 trillion federal deficit Obama inherited was accumulated under the last three Republican presidents. During the presidency of George W. Bush, Republicans controlled the office of president, plus the U.S. House and Senate simultaneously for four years. The result by the end of Bush’s eight-year presidency was that unemployment rose dramatically and our economy disintegrated. His was one of the worst economic presidencies in U.S. history. Despite a lot of posturing about budget deficits, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush never proposed a single balanced budget. Unemployment got worse during both Bush presidencies. Their policies are largely responsible for causing today’s problems. I just wish that the Republicans and Democrats would both work together, putting aside all the political posturing and corporate influence ($), and work for the good of the country as a whole. America's gotta get it's sh#t together. Lead or get our of the way. Evolve or die as they say, or else we all better learn to speak a Chinese dialect or enjoy our jobs working at Wal-Mart (if we're lucky). I don't think that any one political ideology is a threat to the future of the US, or even the rest of the world. It's religious fanaticism and powerful corporations. Neither has allegiance to any nation.  I'm just a reluctant capitalist bleeding heart liberal and I love freedom and America. I want ALL Americans to do well, but the left AND right have to work TOGETHER or else this great nation (empire) will fall just like my people's did, the Romans (and we were the baddest motherfu#kers of all) This we can agree on however!
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311 |
You do your liberal party proud with this spew of ignorant nonsense and name calling.
 First I've heard about that! I wish we did though... We do have a few liberals in the Democratic party but mostly just moderates, centrists and corporate shills. I do love me some Bernie Sanders though. Vermont is a pretty progressive state. Hell, the Conservative Party of Canada would be considered liberal here in the US! I have both liberal beliefs and conservative beliefs. I'm a complicated man... Just trying to keep a Taoist kinda balance meself... I think we need a viable third party. A middle class/labor party of some kind. A "workers" party if you will (but I'm sure that sounds way too "commie" for you). You know... a political party for the small guy. A party for people who are not wealthy or poor. People who actually work for a living and don't have access to the power that the rich do or the programs that the poor have. I mean seriously, the rich don't need the tea party to fight for their rights! The rich and powerful have many allies in government. They'll be just fine... It's the rest of us that I worry about. Peace.
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,357
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,357 |
You do your liberal party proud with this spew of ignorant nonsense and name calling. Umm, isn't that pretty close to name calling?
When you started a 4th of July thread, Michael, you began it by reproducing a Reagan speech. Do you realize that you instantly politicized the thread out of the gate? That's like dumping a load of bricks on a shrew to make a point.
Some people who are not white, not male, not middle class, not straight, not Christian and not native born (especially Grenadians, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, Colombians, Panamanians, East Timorese....) have no warm and fuzzy's about Ronnie.
Then I got taken down for making a joke and "ruining" the sanctity of the Holyday, which apprently, was not supposed to be MY holiday.
Everyone's thoughts are valid and deserve a forum. Agreed wholeheartedly. Reagan was a quack, and it's apparent from Michael's posts that he only wants to read right-wing views on this forum. He's spat off with me about my "left-wing rhetoric" before. We just need to be more mindful that we each do not come from the same Bolivian Vicuna lineage as Cam's family. Okay, enough already ! That headspace is pretty much where I was way back when when you and I butted heads, Mike. Perhaps he'll learn. Learn what? Though I must say that I found myself nodding in agreement with just about everything Terry said ... Yup.
The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,015
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,015 |
I like charts too. What about this one? 
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,116 |
The reason for that amount of the debt is the "bailout" which was put in place by the Bush administration in his last days and supported by BOTH Obama and McCain if either became president. The debt wouldn't be any different if McCain was in office as he supported this as well. The more important question is why was there a bailout, why was this sort of policy needed and what and who is responsible for getting the economy to that point?
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.
-Max Payne
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311 |
Yep. Charts are a good thing. Cold hard data is appreciated around here. Here's a chart that shows the monthly job losses since the start of the "Great Recession" with an interesting twist: red columns point to monthly job totals under the Bush administration, while blue columns reflect job totals under the Obama administration. 
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,357
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,357 |
Here's an excellent article (includes numerous sources) on 10 reasons why Obama is just as bad or worse than Bush.
The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
When you started a 4th of July thread, Michael, you began it by reproducing a Reagan speech. Do you realize that you instantly politicized the thread out of the gate? That's like dumping a load of bricks on a shrew to make a point.
Oh give me a brake Bob….. That’s generalization to the tenth. You’re bigger than that and you should know me better. Savant’s post was completely filled with overly biased opinions stated as facts with name calling, and it certainly wasn’t conservative in nature. Until his post, all others were civil and respectful. My Forth of July thread, if you would have taken the time to read past the name “Reagan”, was about the revolution, the day that July 4 is supposed to recognize. I neither supported him or denounced him. I just thought his speech was appropriate. To call that political is a stretch of inordinate proportions to support whatever agenda you happen to have towards me at this particular moment. I am neither liberal or conservative. I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. I look to the person, what that person stands for without any regard to that person’s political party allegiance. Anyone who wants to try and call me one or the other would be mistaken. I look at both sides. In fact, the quote I posted above is clearly a quote that does not support either side, whether you call them liberal / democratic or conservative / republican. That headspace is pretty much where I was way back when you and I butted heads, Mike. We butted heads? I’ve forgotten and have gone so far as to extend to you an invitation to stay in my home, why haven’t you? I don’t understand your term headspace.
I think we need a viable third party. A middle class/labor party of some kind. A "workers" party if you will (but I'm sure that sounds way too "commie" for you).
You know... a political party for the small guy. A party for people who are not wealthy or poor. People who actually work for a living and don't have access to the power that the rich do or the programs that the poor have.
You didn’t read the quote I posted either, apparently. There was a time when we had more than two parties. Just where do you think I reside in the economic food chain? Ever bother to ask or even care? I have calluses on my hands and the only “deduction” I have is a slew of charitable donations, every year, and the mortgage interest on my home, with no second home. I would rather have a simple flat tax, if you really want to know how I feel about it.
Agreed wholeheartedly. Reagan was a quack, and it's apparent from Michael's posts that he only wants to read right-wing views on this forum. He's spat off with me about my "left-wing rhetoric" before.
Apparent? You branding me now Cam? No, I don’t want to read either. If you recall, I “spat off” after you went on one of your rants about how evil and F-ed up the USA is. Feel free to call me a patriot, as I am one and I don’t visit this sight to read anti-US comments from folks who can only see one side of a situation, the side they happen to agree with.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 311 |
I think we need a viable third party. A middle class/labor party of some kind. A "workers" party if you will (but I'm sure that sounds way too "commie" for you).
You know... a political party for the small guy. A party for people who are not wealthy or poor. People who actually work for a living and don't have access to the power that the rich do or the programs that the poor have.
You didn’t read the quote I posted either, apparently. There was a time when we had more than two parties. Oh yes I did read it! But that was in the past, man. We need a viable new third party. But we're stuck with the two party system for now. We gotta make changes within those two camps. Unless you have some better ideas. Just where do you think I reside in the economic food chain? Ever bother to ask or even care? I have calluses on my hands and the only “deduction” I have is a slew of charitable donations, every year, and the mortgage interest on my home, with no second home. I care. I assume most of us here on the Axiom forum are about average. Not really rich, not too poor (we have HT and computer access for instance). Just working stiffs. All of us. I just want and deserve to live like a wealthy playboy! But truthfully, I'm try to live a Burt Reynolds lifestyle on a Mac Davis budget... I'm with you brother on mortgage interest deductions. I need those myself. I'm self-employed and I pay a bunch of taxes. Their talking about getting rid of or lowering the amount you can deduct in this budget plan. That pisses me off. We can bail out Wall Street, but the average American gets to pay the bill. Same with those two horrible war adventures. Wrap that crap up and we'll have a lot more money for the country. The MIC is firmly entrenched in both parties. Gotta have a strong military or else the world won't fear us! States are going broke and Republican governors wanna fire teachers, firemen and cops and give tax breaks to corporations so they can create those mythical high paying jobs. Washington wants to balance the budget on the backs of hard working Americans. That's why I'm for raising the taxes on the wealthiest top percent. They can afford it. They should be willing to help America out. It's the patriotic thing to do. I would rather have a simple flat tax, if you really want to know how I feel about it. I think that might be an interesting solution. Simplifying the tax code as well. As long as it's not that "fair" tax idea. That thing is anything but fair.
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 345
devotee
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devotee
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 345 |
I'll try and get this back on track before it gets any more personal...
Truth be told, the deficit is almost meaningless in and of itself FOR NOW. The U.S. government is still able to issue debt at an extraordinarily low rate, with no evidence of that changing anytime soon (unless no bill is passed before Aug 2). Furthermore, a massive component of the deficit is cyclical i.e. lost revenues because of unemployment and poor economic growth, combined with the automatic stabilizers such as EI (which has been extended on several occasions).
Even the "stimulus" isn't that big a deal, as it was predominantly a small series of tax cuts and bailout of the states, with roughly 1/3 devoted to research and infrastructure programs. All of these measures are considered by reputable economists to be good bang for the dollar, to say nothing of the "future investment" aspect of keeping schools open, etc. The problem with the stimulus is that it was too small to do anything other than prevent a depression, rather than promote real job growth.
The real, long-term deficit crisis is related to: 1) the structural deficit i.e. taxes have been too low to support spending since long before the recession, and 2) health spending projections, which show no signs of slowing down. Social Security could almost certainly be made solvent with minor adjustments to the rules and figures. If the Gang of Six deal can add some sanity into both of these problems, which for whatever reason couldn't get put into the health bill, the U.S. will actually be demonstrating to the world it's capable of keeping its head on straight, if not getting its $h!t together.
I would also argue that these problems aren't caused by "right wing crazies" or the primary system...no matter how much influence Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, et al. seem to believe they have, they've never been able to deliver a nomination for the Republicans or against the Dems, and their collective audience is probably no more than 10% of the population (few of which would ever be considered undecided/independent voters).
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786 |
Yep. Charts are a good thing. Cold hard data is appreciated around here.
OOooooh!! Chart Wars. When do we get to the part where Ronnie says: "Barak, I am your father"
Fred
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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
That headspace is pretty much where I was way back when you and I butted heads, Mike. We butted heads? I’ve forgotten and have gone so far as to extend to you an invitation to stay in my home, why haven’t you? I don’t understand your term headspace. Stupid politics. I was bringing up the past simply to contrast it to where we are today -- beyond the animosity. If you're ever in the DC area, my door is open. Headspace is basically the same thing as mindset.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331 |
Politics is a lot like driving a car and getting road rage. You strap on your "dogma suit" and feel kind of invincible. You say and do things that you might not otherwise do, and you forget there are real people in those other dogma suits that keep getting in your way. Nicely put. Look who's all mature 'n' stuff. I know! Isn't he disgusting? He makes me, when I was his age, look like a kindergartener.
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331 |
Tom and I will be over there having a beer. Somebody pull up a chair for this old guy.
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,458 |
He makes me, when I was his age, look like a kindergartener. Well, you DID have a ring of frosting around your mouth.....
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,596 Likes: 1
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,596 Likes: 1 |
I will take full responsibility for my part in any violation of the directive indicated after the comma in this post's title.
If I minscontrued your intent, Michael, I apologize.
Note to self: Remember, dork, no politics, no religion, no tubes. Repeat.
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 119
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 119 |
Bob - I feel that tube amps should only be allowed to be sold to Black, Female, German, Lutheran, Gay, Young, Republicans.
Don't die with a clean shop!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,471
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,471 |
You forgot to lead with "Deaf, Blind, Paraplegic"
(Hat tip to Cam)
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 119
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 119 |
Oh Yeah!!!! So now you're playing the "Deaf, Blind, Paraplegic" card?
Don't die with a clean shop!
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
You should see him play pinball with his tongue.
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Re: Gang of Six Budget Plan, try to keep it civil
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877 |
Is that what they call it these days?
-David
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