Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions M50 vs. M60 Frequency Response - Bass

I've gone and overlayed the M50 and M60 frequency response charts as semi transparent layers in Photoshop. From a comparison of the two, I noticed the following things:

1. (M50 is less sensitive) The M50 isn't as sensitive (db) as the M60 between the 40-400Hz range, you'd have to turn the turn volume knob up a little higher while using the M50s to to reach the same output as the M60;

2. (M50 is brighter) Because the M50 lags M60's sensitivity until around the 400Hz mark, the M50 would seem to have a subtle inclination across the chart, whereas the M60 would appear to be more flatter (ignoring dips and peaks) overall - suggesting the M50's highs would appear to be mor pronounced relative to its lows.

3. (M50 has better bass extension) Even though the M50 might seem a bit brighter (my assumption from above) than the M50 while playing at a similar volume, it's the M50 that will play bass audibly into lower frequencies as its rolloff starting at 90Hz is a LOT slower.

Comments/Corrections anybody?

No doubt the extra midrange driver in the M60 makes a difference in the crossover settings, hence, the slight difference in response at various levels. I would, however, suggest, don't get too wrapped up in comparisons of frequency response charts, in "real world" use, these differences are subtle at best. Let your ears be the final arbiter of what sounds best to you. In either case, you can't go wrong.

GC, my first thought is along the same line as one of Casey's: don't try to evaluate relatively subtle sound differences between speakers in the same line by interpreting small variations in frequency graphs. As to 1., sensitivity, this is typically measured by using an average in the mid-range from about 200-2000Hz. The two appear to average about the same and Axiom rates both at 89dB for 1watt/1meter.

On 2., I'd be inclined to think that what you describe wouldn't be enough to make the M50 audibly "brighter".

3. Since the M60 uses the same two woofers in a somewhat larger enclosure than the M50, there's at least the potential to tune the enclosure to a slightly lower frequency and it'd be surprising if this wasn't the design. Axiom does rate the M60 2Hz lower in the specs. Note that the anechoic chamber isn't accurate below about 80Hz(one reason for measuring high in the air on the tower)and so especially in the bottom two octaves, comparisons can't be relied on.

Weird why it always takes so long to log into the forum. Oh well...

Anyways, after trying to find listener (or pro) comparisons between the M50 and M60s, I was really only able to find a solid comparison between the M22 and the M60. In that well articulated review, it was said the M22s out performed the M60 in terms of definition, imagining and precision, but would need a subwoofer to match the M60s fuller presence. The M60s were said to be much more laid back and less clear through the midrange, but beefier and more spacious.

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I would like as indepth a review between the M50 and M60. 2 things... looking at the frequency graphs, it would APPEAR that the M50s have better bass extention (regardless of their spec rating). AND... they being in a smaller enclosure, closer to the M22... I wonder if they'd articulate greater definition in imaging than the M60s?! Hmmm... if both of those proposals are on the money, then the M50 could be the best of both worlds, no? It just wouldn't have AS flat a response as the M60s, and have a little less power.

Does anyone have actual experience with both?

the only thing i can say to this is that a couple of dB more or less here and there makes a much smaller difference than the room where you install speakers. Every room is different; a speaker can sound bad or good, depending on the room.
they're both (room/speaker) coupled together.

when you have good speakers, to get good sound, you need a room that's kind on the sound, which means a room always needs room "treatment", like rugs, soft furniture somewhere, etc.
This tames the sound wave reflections in a room.

when you go in an empty room and you clap your hands, you hear an echo. this is how good sound can come out bad in your ears, too many reflections.

if you feel that a speaker will not go down in frequencies as much as you'd like, then you have a choice:
1: get large towers; if this is not good enough, then you can
2: get smaller towers and get a sub that will go down in frequencies to where you want.

hope this helps. :-)

You're printing weird data; by all accounts, the M60s are the superior speaker. I have M50tis and M80v2s, and I can tell you that the M80s far outshine the M50s. The M60s are widely considered to be more similar to the M80s than the M50s.

Having compared the M50s back to back with M22s, your cited comparo between the 22s and the 60s sounds much more like a comparo betweethe 22s and the 50s: 50s more laid back, beefier, 22s better imaging and soundstage.

What if you have both? M50's with M22's mounted above them. How would that sound?

Perhaps I should share the M22/M60 link I make reference to. DanMagicMan7's second review, near the bottom...

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=13539&Number=190284

On page 5 of that forum string, Alan of Axiom (sounds like a Scottish title, lol) concurs with Dan's review.

PS: Catbrat. You silly, you are.

GC, my comment is that regardless of how "well articulated" a review is, its accuracy is still open to question. I'd be dubious of a review that finds so many audible differences between the M22 and the M60 except in the lowest bass.

John K... when I say Alan of Axiom concurs, I don't mean someone agrees who's username is 'Alan of Axiom' - I mean, Alan, from Axiom, concurs. That's a pretty solid vouch for the review.

GC, I was entirely aware of that review before. Alan has stated on more than one occasion that the M22, M60 and M80 sound very similar at typical listening levels except in the deep bass and that he's had great difficulty distinguishing them in blind tests when a subwoofer was used to even out the bass factor.

There are differences between the different series of Axioms (ie ti, v2, v3) which could account for the differences I've heard in back to back testing. Nevertheless, I find the M22/M60/M80 series to be generally superior to the M50tis that I own. The M3s are another can of worms (if you can find them, look for my reviews of M3s/M50s/M80s and M22s/M50s)

While I own M22v2s, I have not back to back tested them vs M50s or M80s. And I am lacking in M60s, although I set up a set of v2s for a friend.

The M40s and M50s are very similar brethren. Same driver/tweeter type, etc. but the M40s were the smaller version of the M50s with a single woofer instead of two, and hence a slightly smaller tower.
Both are 2-way designs in contrast to the M60 3-way driver design which makes a huge difference.

I did a blind testing of the M40 vs. M60 awhile back (these would be the M60 originals, not the newer version 3).

The link to my humble thoughts (and photos) can be found here.

Another review of the M40s.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/axiom_millenniam40ti.htm


Incidentally, Axiom needs to update their vintage info page to include recently defunct models.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/vintage.html

Here's the M50 vs. M22 comparison we did a number of years ago (back with the ti models).

Here's the M80 vs. M50 vs. M3 comparison. This was M80v2s vs the original M50ti vs. M3v2s.

Does it not strike anyone as a little odd that there has been no direct indepth (or any depth) comparison of the M50s to the M60s? After all, they're the the most alike models in their price range... physically alike, next to each other in order of price, and both the last remaining 8ohm speakers before it jumps down to 4ohm (coupled in a significant jump in price and performance). Just seems like all the comparisons play leap-frog over each other (M50 to M80, M22 to M60, M3 to M50, etc). Isn't that... weird? lol

Not really. If you're going to upgrade, why jump only one step? Similarly, if you're going to buy a second set, you're likely not to buy two sets of towers. What kind of nut would have two pairs of towers? (whistles...)

It appears I'm the only one that likes to use 2 sets of mains. I'm seriously thinking about buying a pair of M50's to pair with my bookshelf M22 (which would replace my on-wall M22's), at some point in the future. Perhaps M60's would sound better?

Has anyone else experimented with pairing M22's with the various floor standers?

The reason I like it is I get more sound, a wall of sound that's not localized, like it was with just the M22's on stands.

I would call it inconvenient, for sure

The problem is that most of the comparison reports you see are driven entirely by the speakers which people living nearby (within "lugging distance") happen to own. One person decides to haul their speakers over to the other person's house, beer is opened, snacks are brought out, and the comparison begins.

I would argue that the whole mechanism is self-selecting for small vs large comparisons simply because carrying a small speaker over to someone's house is a whole lot easier than carrying a set of towers.

There are also some comparisons which result from an upgrade but in those cases it's relatively rare to upgrade only one level unless the new speakers are the top of the line (which explains the M60-to-M80 reviews). If Axiom made M100s then I'm sure you would see a lot more M60-to-M100 reviews than M60-to-M80...

M100... hum... interesting though, 3 woofers, 3 midrange and 3 tweeters, LOL... Better start saving for the upgrade

cheaper by the dozen?

Who has the link for the M80-on-top-of-another-M80 custom jobbie that Ian did for someone a number of years ago?

Not the same as M22 on top of M80/60/50.

Here's a thread.

I haven't searched enough to be able to find the pics for them again, though.

Mojo and jakewash did a lot of experimenting with M22s, M60s, and M80s wired together "...abominations" and concluded the "M82s" had the best Axiom sound. The thread inspired me to try it out myself so I ordered the M22s and three M60s. When I got it all I did some experimenting, but decided it was too much effort (and a bit wobbly) and exchanged two of the M60s for M80s and used the M22s as computer speakers. Couldn't be happier.

Speaking of stacked speakers... In the latest Fringe episode, there is a scene where Walter Bishop is slouched in a chair behind a wall of Very randomly stacked, very miscellaneous, vintage speakers. Of course, he is listening at some insane volume to Mozart while probably doing some more 'experimenting' with his meds. I had to pause the picture to get a better view of the pile of speakers as it made me chuckle a bit.

I happened to see that very portion of the show when I walked through the room my wife was watching the show in and seeing that did make me chuckle as well.