Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater So what's in a sub...?

I know...I'm like a post it note. I'm just posting up everywhere. But you know, when you're dropping the $$$ you want to do it right So that's why I'm here! This post is in relation to my sub. I have a 12" JBL sub. It's has the boom and the bass that's good for movies. I don't know if it would fare well for music. But on the topic of these SVS and HSU subs that all you guys like. Can you convince me and sell me out of by JBL that I've had for 6 years to move to one of these subs? Can it really offer more to me in terms of Home Theater (particualarly)? Thanks guys! And happy posting

Unless you're very tall, nobody posts up like Gary Payton.

I'm sure you will be able to read quite a bit elsewhere on these boards about the character of subwoofers. But you may have inadvertently hit the nail on the head yourself. Your comment about "boom" and the JBL is telling. The best subs provide a more "musical" experience by transmitting the energy faster. The result is what some people refer to as "tighter" bass.

Point being, not all material below 80Hz is created equal. There are octaves of sound down there, and your sub should be able to communicate with clarity and precision, not just "on or off" to the program.

I also like your original post title - it is a good question, and valid for your situation. What can you expect by spending more and replacing your sub? Look at the quality of the driver, the quality and power of the amplifier, the rated frequency response and the quality of build. The Hsu and SVS models are rated "flat" (+/- 3db) down to about 22-25Hz. Is there a similar rating for your current sub? You might be surprised how much program material there is below 35 Hz, especially in movies. If your sub's frequency response drops off rapidly at that point, you're probably missing quite a bit.

You might try to get some material that you are very familiar with, and audition some high quality subs at a local shop just to see whether you can tell the difference between those and your JBL. If you get a "A HA!" from listening to a $800 Paradigm or some such, you would probably enjoy auditioning a Hsu or SVS in your home, which would be the best test of all.

I looked at and was very impressed with the reviews for the SVS PB2-Plus. I said to myself...there must be something more. But is this power so overkill that I can find it's rival (perhaps in lower line of SVS) that will be fine at normal HT listening levels? Bottom line (just as punchy, but cheaper) so I don't have to spend $1200? But just in case there isn't...is there any place to get it cheaper? Thanks all!

Misfit,
you may want to check the frequency response of your sub. It's possible that the M80s have enough bottom end to make your sub unnecessary (though you may still prefer it to take the load off the mains).

I haven't heard the M80s, but I don't think that dual 6.5" woofers (as good as they sound) can cover bass like a 10 or 12 inch sub. The surface area just isn't there. I'm in the "always have the sub on" camp, so take it with a grain of salt, but there's things you just can't hear without them.

Agreed Ken. If you want special LFE - it must come from a sub. Floor standing speakers can't carry that kind of load.

Ray

Even if it's not specifically LFE...

On Sting-Brand New Day, the first track starts with a low rumble tone (now someone's going to tell me it's a clear note on their SVS or Hsu, and then I'll have to get a new sub...) which I just don't think you would get the feel of from the M80 woofers. Again, I haven't heard them, but there's a physical limit to how much air you can move with 6.5" woofers.

I don't believe that SVS products are available at discount (except B-Stock through them), or widely through any vendors except the company itself.

Lots of people seem thrilled with the SVS and Hsu tube subs, which are a bit less expensive than the comparable box subs. For me, form factor and WAF are issues, so I'm firmly in the box camp.

I'd agree about needing a sub. Not only due to the driver size, but also because you get another, robust, dedicated amplifier out of the deal.

Yep...the M80's aren't enough alone if you want the real thrill of what a good sub can do.

My vote goes out to the Hsu VTF-3 MKII. If you're open to the idea of a cylinder sub, you could do worse than their 1220HO sub.

I had a JBL PB10, and was not unhappy with it. But, I decided to give a HSU STF-2 ($400) a try. I was happily surprised. tomtuttle summed it up. JBL=Boom. HSU=tight, musical. The difference is subtle, but noticeable. Whether you would have the same experience, I cannot say.

My old Infinity had a "boom" that I could hear. My new VTF-2 has a "punch" that I can feel. That's the biggest difference I have noticed is that I feel the bass more than hear it now. One thing that really made me notice it is when I was playing Outlaw Golf on my GC over the weekend. When the ball hit the ground the sound was "thhhhump". I didn't realize it was the sub at first because I felt it more than heard it. Thought something fell against the side of the house at first. Point is upgrade from a boom to a punch. You won't regret it.

This may be a silly question...and all are free to answer...do you miss the boom? Do you ever sit there and go, I wish I had more boom then I do now?

I don't. The "punch" is much more satisfying, and no less explosive. One qualification on that statement. I'm an old guy, and grew up to my music and movies without the "boom." I'm also a Viet Nam vet who's had all the ground shaking explosions he needs. If you are a young person who is used to a car bouncing around as you drive because of a subwoofer exploding in the trunk, you might miss that "boom."

I don't miss the boom. In fact I have never been a fan of it. When I used to be in to high-end car audio years ago, I used to build smaller sealed boxes to get more of a punch than a boom.

The "boom" you are referring too is not positively correlated with the quality of the sub; in fact it's inversely correlated with sub quality. The more ACCURATE a sub is the less "boom" there will be, unless the program material calls for it. If you crave inaccurate audio, you may miss the "boom," but I cannot see this being useful in any type of music other than techno, hip-hop, and rap. People who listen to these types of music generally over-emphasize the pseudo deep bass frequencies from around 30-50 Hz (which is where the perceived boom is. This isn't true deep bass, however. My subwoofer produces near triple digit SPLs at 16 Hz (plus it's very quick and it's fairly linear even without my parametric EQ - but I still use it to compensate for room modes). Now that's a deep sub - MUCH more rewarding than some pseudo deep cheapo sub, but mine took quite a bit of work in selecting components, hiring a cabinet builder to build the box to driver specs, etc. Not everyone needs this level of quality, but I prefer it.

Also someone mentioned above that two 6.5" drivers do not have the surface area of a 10" driver... This is not exactly true. Two 6.5" drivers would have a surface area roughly equal to that of a single 10" driver (the same as a theoretical 9.75" driver), but typically the excursion on 6.5" drivers is less than that of 10" subwoofer drivers. Because displacement (excursion * surface area) is what matters in deep bass, the 2x 6.5 will be slightly lacking, but this all depends on the quality of the drivers. It is technically possible for 2x6.5 drivers to be SUPERIOR to a single 10" or even a 12" driver if the excursion is enough on the smaller drivers.

"In terms of deep bass, there is no replacement for displacement."

OK, fine. I knew there was something...