Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Minimum Gauge for M80s / VP180?

Hi all.

I've been in the club for a while with my EP500 and QS8s but I've finally decided to ditch my Polk front 3 for Axiom's top front 3. Right now I am using 16 and 14 gauge cable in my system. The 14 is a no name brand, but the 16 is Monster THX cert that I use for surrounds. I'm just wondering if anyone's seen a difference with getting a thicker gauge to run their 4 ohm speakers. I found a few charts online that say a 4 ohm load should be able to run, undistorted, over 16 feet, on 18 gauge wire. But I always like to take a few opinions from the public as well.

I also plan to get your opinion on surround placements. Not just for 5.1 but with the possibility of 7.1 upgrade. I will take some pics and post my room later.

Thanks all,
-Justin

Personally, I would just get 12 awg wire and not monkey around with 14,16 or 18 awg. Speaker wire can be purchased for so cheap in bulk (see link below).

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239

This way you can insure the speaker cable has high conductivity for pretty much all home speaker run applications. Now or for any change in the future.

P.S I'd also recommend getting locking banana plugs.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

I used the monoprice 12AWG for all of my speakers, as well as monoprice closed banana plugs, very high quality and a price that is hard to beat.

It should be noted also, FWIW, that Axion's own speaker wire, though more expensive, has been highly praised for it's flexibility.

The Monoprice stuff, though cheaper, can be very stiff.

The 14 gauge will be fine for your fronts, no need to buy new wire.

Furez FZ102AS Advanced 10AWG 2 Conductor CL3 In-Wall Speaker Cable
http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_484.html
This is the speaker cable that i have for my M60's/VP180.

Prior to this, i was using a 4 conductor 12 gauge monster cable that retailed for about 2-300$ for a pair (i bought mine off of ebay for much less used)... I like the Furez more. Rick is right, 14gauge will be just fine... For me i got the 10 gauge, because i wanted to buy something :~).... The other nice thing about the Furez product, is that they post all of the technical specifications of their wires.. Most companies do not do that.. Even though the Furez product is rated for in wall use, it is very flexible due to the manufacture using a silicone insulator instead of a ridged plastic.

On a side note, thee was someone on the axiom forum who recently bought some speaker cables from bluejeanscable, and got them to ultrasonically weld the banana plugs on. I could not find the link to the person on this forum. However, here is a link to the process on bluejeans website.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/ultrasonic-welding.htm


This is one of the only resistance charts that i could find with the per foot/resistance break down, resistance is usually stated in the 1,000' increments.

http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html

Here is a larger chart, that shows more sizes, it is in the 1000'/ohm scale, so you will need to do a little math to calculate what each of your runs would be.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm


One other factor in speaker wire "design" ( i use the term design very loosely) is the capacitance of the insulator used, the lower capacitance the better... I am not going to elaborate much more on that...


The real question is.. How much disposable income do you have? if spending 50-100$ on speaker cable is nothing to you, then i say buy some new speaker cable for your new speakers... If you don't have endless pockets right now, then use what you have, as Rick pointed out it will be fine.

Since your interested in specifications Dakkon, the Blue Jeans Cable 10 specs are:

Inductance: 0.160uH/ft
DC Resistance: 2mohms/ft
Capacitance: 25pF/ft

Unless the speaker cable is using some weird geometry in its construction, wire specs would be helpful. Otherwise knowing just the awg of the wire is more than enough IMO.

Couldn't agree more. Also factor in how much trouble it would be to re-run your cables, especially if they're behind finished walls & ceilings. Starting from scratch, or if replacing the cables is not much hassle, I would say just go 12awg and be done with it.

for many years i used 9awg wire (i must have been more of an extremist than today); then i switched to 12awg.

i never heard a difference.

The thickest wire I have used is the BJC 10 awg and it just fits into their own locking banana plugs. I doubt there would be many plugs compatible with that wire.

For the hell of it, I've tried running 10 awg bare and it is just a pita getting it into the binding posts on the back of the electronics. I can't imagine going 9 or lower.

I think it would be more of a detriment if you are stuck going bare with that thick of wire because you would be more prone to whiskers shutting down the electronics. Even with the 10 it's also tough getting a tight, secure connection (gets loose over time) going bare wire on the binding posts.

These two ratings do not mean much with out the tested frequency... as they are both AC circuit properties.

Furez ratings.
Capacitance @ 1KHz: 17.5pF/ft
Inductance @ 1KHz: 0.179uH/ft

I use welded pry bars with R-28 insulation.

The rest of you are wimps.

indeed i am still stuck in 1AD times... using the simple screw......

Not the most flexible solution...

That was CV.

Bluejay, i wonder why they dont make those chart's easy to find on their speaker cable page. The furez cables have slightly higher inductance, but a decent amount less capacitance. i think capacitance would be the more important variable here, as capacitance is the opposition to a changing frequency (or stored voltage), were inductance is the opposition to a change in current.


They should make that information more easily available, a link or something on the cable page...i looked for a minute or so, and could not find it, but then again i am not interested in looking much longer than a minute or so

Those are measurements conducted by a 3rd party. I agree it wouldn't hurt to link stuff like that. I think Blue Jeans does a great job. They summed up speaker wire perfectly in a paragraph on their website.

Guilty. Photo evidence.

I was looking to get some new speaker cables soon, I think I may try those, too. Most of my interconnect cables have come from BJC. Really impressed with price, build quality, and ease of use (no death grip and flexibility).

I have 10awg for my power cord,and you guys were rubbing me...now it's speaker wires! Cardas is all I say to that!

Justin, please don't get sucked in by the 'monster'. You're only paying for the name, and the proceeds go to their lawyers so they can sue anyone who uses 'Monster' in their name. Almost any decent copper wire from Monoprice, Home Depot, Axiom, etc. will do the job.

Justin, if you haven't studied it already, note that the info on speaker wire found here is essential reading. This is an area of audio plagued with charlatans selling magic wire at absurd prices. There's essentially no meaningful technical complexity involved here, and if your runs aren't unusually long you have nothing to gain by changing your present setup.

As to the surrounds, the side surrounds in a 5.1 setup can benefit by being located slightly(maybe 2')farther back than directly to the side of the listening position, to lend a little more phantom back surround in the absence of actual 7.1 back surround speakers. With 7.1 they can be directly to the side, with the back surrounds spread about as widely as the distance that they're behind the listening position. The surrounds can be placed about 2-3' above ear level.

I appreciate the healthy amount of replies from everyone. It sounds like the general consensus is more or less what research has suggested. If it ain't a total P.O.S. it's not really worth switching unless I actually need new cable for new runs.

Joe in Ct: Just so you know, I'm with you on the Monster topic. I picked that roll up because it was dirt cheap on Amazon for a 100' roll. I tell my customers ALL the time that my wimpy looking HDMI cable is as good as whatever the dude at Best Buy tried to sell them.

I love showing people Monoprice HDMI cables for a $1.59 right after they bought 30-40 dollar ones.

I will say that the cheapest of the cheap might be too cheap just because of general build quality. I have seen a couple bad cables from monoprice/amazon. Doesn't happen to often but does happen. I guess while I trust cheap HDMI cables I'd still recommend to not the the absolute cheapest one.

So THIS explains why you've been chased out of the Best Buy parking lot 3-4 times a week!

nothing wrong with Mono's 12 awg, quality wise.

I have never heard about a bad mono price hdmi. They don't feel cheap at all.

I guess for the value of those cables... even if 1 in 50 is bad, and it's probably less than that, you still made out like a banshee.

Here's a multi photo sort-of panorama around my room. My toughest area to work with is the left channel surround and the rear surrounds if I add them. What's everyone think about placement of surrounds?

Justin, I like your room and set-up. The couch and chairs look comfy!

Hmm, I'd be tempted to try that left rear QS8 on the small triangle of the adjoining wall. That way it'd be facing the same direction as the right side QS8. I know it'd still be behind the listening position and in relation to the other QS8.

Justin, just a reminder, in case you forgot or don't know:
Audyssey will make good calibrations only if the room setup is the same as when you listen to your AV system.
everytime you change something in the room, you must recalibrate.

there is a very good document about how to use Audyssey for best results:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

Yep, I ran the calibration with the furniture where it sits when I watch movies. I'm probably only going to have the chairs around the table when people are over for football or something similar.

Is this suggestion for if I were to just stick with 5.1? I think I would agree with you in that case. But if I were to go with 7 speakers, I think I'd want channels 4 and 6 in line with my head, and then 8 and 7 on the back wall(s)

Keep rocking that guitar.

I dont think you have enough depth in that room to run 7.1, I would personally stick with 5.1, and do like St_Patguy reccomended, place the left (as facing the chairs) surround on the back wall, or hang it from the angled celling. the axiom QS8 mounts, can adjust for the angle of that back drop.. Also, i would bring the right QS8 to the same plane behind the chairs, so that both of the surrounds are the same distance from the chairs.



Your current setup kind of reminds me of one of mine... I had a QS8 on 3 Arizona Tea cans that i was using as a stand for a couple years... the unopened cans worked quite well actually.

Just get the Axiom wire...very good!