Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler axiom and other forums

Please read with an open mind before passing judgment. I know there has been alot of stuff going on here and @ the other forums and I thought I would post my thoughts from the other side. Sometimes you have to look @ stuff from another angle to see what might be happening. I will start with the negative stuff before moving on to the better stuff, so please just bear with me.

I have read that axiom are comparable to the paradigm studios, and being a studio owner I spent more money on these and belive in the product. Lets say that might offend me and also the monitor series owners as well. I read that alan believes that they sound as good as the sigs, which now just maybe that has offended the paradigm sig owners.

I did read also from alan negative comments towards klipsch which might offend klipsch owners. I am not putting down alan so again please bear with me. I believe that they are decent products myself. Also jc has made negative comments about paradigm and also over the last few years alot of negative comments from axiom owners towards paradigm here or on other forums and I am not accusing anyone here. You had a 30th anniversary and in a dbt the other more expensive speaker lost which could also offend them and also seem biased. I am just trying to point out how some of this could happen if you were looking at it from the other side.

My dealer does not put down others speakers which I did find refreshing and trys to sell what they have on their own merit. Myself I dislike on other forums when they will only suggest speakers that they own when just maybe that another brand might be best suited for that person.

I did talk to brent twice and he gave honest answers and I felt comfortable talking to him. Just maybe when it was originally stated the axioms have a comparable sound to paradigm as both were part of the nrc, but then moved to that they have a simular sound to the studio. I also think that people might get tired of the term similarly good.

Ian seems like a nice guy and I have not seen negative comments for him. I get the impression that he just likes to build speakers and to make the best speakers he can. So when people get offended they will look for any reason valid or not. example the vp150, just maybe it is not the best design, but that is ok as you now have the 160 and 180. A company has to make mistakes, for them to grow and I am not saying the vp150 is a mistake just trying to give you something to think about.

Has Ian ever seen something that one of you have said and thought jeez, I wish my guys would not have said that or maybe they could have worded in a different way. maybe if everyone just took a step back and took a deep breath that it might be a good start. Maybe it could be what you said or how you said it. we all are in this for the same reason for the love of speakers. All this is fixable and maybe if when on the other forums to just let some things slide for awhile and just have some fun then we might all just get along. again I not bashing alan or jc just trying to give food for thought. I am sure all of you just want the best for Ian and axiom and maye you just need a fresh start and this might be a great time for that.

If you wish me not to post here then I can take the hint from your following posts. If I have offend anyone than I do apologize as this is not my intention. If you wanted to know who I am on the avs forum I would gladly tell you. I have travelled many times to cottage country and If I got up there again I would like to see tha axiom factory. I know it gets frustrating from both sides and I for one would like to see that change as we have the same hobby. Maybe if we met in a coffee shop you might just say hey, he seems like a nice guy who has the same interests that we do.

I really don`t like posting too much as it takes time away from my hobby, I hope things all work out in the end. Maybe Ian will read this and maybe even post his thoughts as I would find that interesting.

On that note I hope you guys and gals have a enjoyable holiday weekend and maybe we can talk again here or even on the avs forum.

Thank you, and again I sorry if I offended anyone.

John-
Well stated... I can't imagine anyone being offended by your post. Thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently. I understand your viewpoint.

Just to throw out one tidbit, for what it's worth: I think that the reason that there are so many comparisons of Axioms to other speakers is because potential buyers are sometimes hesitant to order speakers on a trial basis. Being here since 2004, I've seen many potential buyers who come here with "what do they sound like?" and "What do they compare to?" questions.

I'm not saying that those answers were given in an appropriate, nor inappropriate way. I'm simply saying that an internet-direct company necessarily begs much more "comparison" questions than one which is sold, and may be auditioned, in a B&M store.

Again, welcome to the forum and thanks for a thought-provoking, "Olive Branch" of a post!

These are interesting comments, especially regarding Paradigm. In the many years I've been a part of this forum, the comments I've read is how similar Axiom and Paradigm sound in comparison. It is not a suprise since they come from some of the same design roots at the NRC. I've posted in the past back when I was looking at speakers that at the time, the Axioms were very similar sounding to the Paradigm Studio models, and in a demo I was a part of overall sounded better than the monitor series.

To many, Klipsh horn design can bring about a harsh sounding experience to the ears, especially at louder levels. Again, I had the pleasure of demoing some RFII's back in the day and did not like the fatigue I experience after a 2hour movie.

These are the types of things others have commented on as well, so not sure what your referring to when you talk about all the negative, or at least what you perceive as negative, comments from the people you mention.

And yes, as part of the Axiom council, I can assure you if Ian finds something said by one of his employees to be off color, to the competitors, he would be tactful in discussing the issue.

Often comments can be misunderstood over forums as you are not hearing the context of the message, as if you were talking to the person. One person may feel another person is being sarcastic, when in fact he is being funny.

Oh well, this is interesting timing on your post, that is for sure.

Wow great post and welcome to the forum. I kind of recognize who you are from your posts at AVS and I've seen those remarks against other brands from people here that rub me the wrong way...like what is the biggest difference between the Studio 100's and the M80's about 1000.00....

Unless you've actually heard both, I think it's problematic if you're "offended" by someone saying that Axioms are "comparable" to Paradigm speakers.

People here just want to have fun, and are typically enthusiastic when others relate their experiences in positive terms. It's absolutely cool to say "I love my Paradigms and here's why..." It's absolutely uncool - on the Axiom forum - to say "my Paradigms blow Axioms away and Ian's designs are stupid".

Context. First person. Experience. Humility. Open-mindedness. Positivity.

Thanks for the post John.

I've heard some nice Paradigm setups before, but in different lines and never in an A/B setup to ever feel justified to make a comment myself about how they compare. Paradigm makes some darn good speakers. I'm glad I have my Axioms, but at the same time that isn't a bad reflection on the Paradigm product lines.

As for Klipsh, long term, I don't care for the horn design. My father-in-law has done quite a bit of audio-modeling (if that is the right term) for medium to larger venues before, and he likes the horn design for large spaces that benefit from a P.A. type of system. Transfer that into a smaller space like a living room or home theater, and there are issues to overcome. I am absolutely not saying that Klipsh hasn't overcome many/most of them, just that after watching Toy Story 2 back when it first came out on DVD at a neighbors house, what I would call "horn-harshness" was a bit hard, and even the owner said that he likes to turn the volume down as the movie goes on.

Then again, this was in a large 2-story family room, but not treated or anything. I don't even know if the guy tried to tune anything. Because of such, this is the first and only post (that I recall) where I have ever posted my experience with Klipsh speakers. I am far from an expert, and I can only reflect things in my terms.

Let it be know though that watching Toy Story 2 at his house is what convinced me to have my home theater V2 instead of just a TV and some small speaker setup. It is also what ultimately led me to Axiom. So how can I be mad about that? I'm not.

Again, no slams at all to Paradigm or Klipsh. Different designs, difference audio outcomes, many happy customers. Axiom is the same. Different design, different audio outcomes, and many happy customers.

Exactly, Tom. Talk from personal experience. If you, personally, have a specific issue with your Axiom speakers and you present your complaints in a non-derisive fashion, you will be treated with respect. The golden rule applies universally.

What absolutely should not be tolerated and should be called out every damn time are the irrational, hateful posters who obviously have an axe to grind. Many of us treat the Axiom Forum as our virtual family room. We come here to hang out with friends that geography does its best to keep us apart from. How would you feel if someone walked in your front door, unzipped their fly, and micturated all over your rug -- a rug that really tied the room together?

If we're defensive, it's because we love this place and it's worthy of our attention.

I think a good starting point for John would be

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=372241&page=1

BTW, welcome aboard.

Welcome to the forum John, come back and play with the rest of us once in awhile.

The recent events has made me think about my postings over the years, here and else where and I hope to have come across as someone looking for the best sound for the money I can find and perhaps even somewhat knowledgeable about audio.

I like this place and the people here, this is why I keep coming back.

Yep, what he said...

Sigh. More fanning of the flames has ensued on Audioholics.

C'mon folks. Move on. No more threads.

John, this is not directed at you.

FWIW, I like my audio equipment. I don't hold it against people that don't like what I do.

Your Studio's are a very nice speaker. Way more 'dead sexy' than Axiom's offerings. Dead sexy costs money, as does channel marketing (which I did for a living for a number of years).

I've listened to a lot of the studio line. Not having done a direct listening comparison to my M80s I cannot say which sounds better. I can tell you that, for the money, the M80 sounds very good and shares the same neutral response as its Studio equivelant.

IF I had done a direct comparison and had found that I thought the equivelant Axiom speaker sounded just as good, it would be foolish of you to be offended. Its just my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Welcome John,


You visited us here, like an Indian Chief with a peace pipe in hand. You walked on egg shells very nicely, and for that I thank you.

John2013, excellent post, you are welcome to come and play here anytime you like.

It's a funny world, we all like music, home theater etc. yet we have to find differences instead of commonality. (I hope that is a real word, I've just spent the bulk of the afternoon digging up grass, I'm beat and my arms are 3" longer).

I see this all the time on the car forums, I like performance cars, period. I happen to own a 'vette but I can and do respect a lot of other makes. The constant Ford v/s Chev v/s imports etc etc drives me crazy. It even has come down to C5 and C6 people arguing over which is best.

btw, my post is better than your post

John2013

Thank you for your very well written post. Oddly I just commented on these sorts of posts in another thread as it is stuff like this that allows us to review and improve how we do things at Axiom.

Personally I always hate when asked to give an opinion on a direct comparison of a particular model speaker from another company to one of ours. That said I totally understand why someone would ask the question too. The majority of times we do comparisons to competitor products are when they are brought to us by an owner wishing to do their own A/B comparison, which we will partake in. Most of the measuring and double blind listen testing we do, and it is going on pretty much continuously, is about isolating particular measurements and empirically testing their relevance to the listening experience. These are the building blocks of always moving forward with our designs.

I should hope that if anyone from Axiom is making comparison comments that they have firsthand experience with said products, and I am fairly confident that is the case. But even then it is still most likely going to just be their opinion as there are very few places that have the set up to do controlled double blind listen testing. Most likely just the NRC and a handful of speaker companies, like Axiom, that use double blind testing as part of their research. To complicate matters more it is highly unlikely the said comparison was done in the recent past and the fact is that I would imagine just like us that our competitors are always making product improvements. So out past a year or so these sorts of comparisons are getting a bit stale.

If you ever have the chance to spend some time doing blind listen testing it is an “eye opening” experience. Differences among well designed products are much smaller than one would imagine. In fact the term “similarily good” was originally coined during my NRC days back in the 80s. I believe it was Floyd who came up with it. In double blind listening tests involving two or more well designed products the scores would end up coming out pretty close with a lot of back and forth amongst the various listeners. Though these products would not necessarily sound exactly the same they would both score very high and, when all averaged out, pretty much the same; hence the term “similarily good”. I can see from your post that this term is not well understood and frankly why would it be. Its actually meaning is a compliment to all speakers in the discussion. To say you believe they would be similarily good means you believe they are all well designed products.

In closing I think I may organize a conference call amongst all of us at Axiom that interact with customers and post publicly, and go through your comments one by one to see if we can put together a congruent dos and don’ts list that we all abide by. I think we will probably lose the “similarily good” comment.

Thanks for the kind replies and yes it did feel like walking on eggshells a little. Sometimes words in print can be taken differently than what you were thinking at the time. I know you guys love your axioms and being an axiom forum, you also represent axiom and Ian. I know you would do your best for him as I said before he seems like a nice guy who loves the buisness he is in.

Its nice to hear from Ian or to see posts from him whether its here or somewhere else. It gives a personal touch. There has been lots of stuff over the last couple of weeks and with what went down I thought it might be a good idea to say what I did. A fresh start for everyone. Why Do I visit the axiom forums? Because I like speakers and there arn't many decent forums around. I do check avs, axiom, bluray and audioholics and in that order just to see whats up, whats new, ect.

I do like this site, It,s one of the better looking sites. I know the customer service is good as I called once, no answer as they were busy, did not leave a message and then 10 mintues later brent called me back because of call display which I thought was cool. By the way I do have 1 lonely qs4 in a secondary system and I like it. I also like the product manual that comes with it as it is 1 of the better ones out there.
I just thought with what happended and the way it did, and if Just maybe you looked from a different view that it would be a great time for a fresh start and I do not mean this in a condescending way. Just to look at it from a different angle to understand.

Hope that makes sense and If I post again that I promise to keep it shorter.I love my speakers but you just never know, I could end up with a pair of m22s yet.

On that note please enjoy your friday evening!!

I must have been typing as Ian posted So I just wanted to thank him for replying. Told you he was a nice guy!! I think that made my weekend just that much better.

Thank you Ian

Hopefully the next time you are in cottage country you will drop in at the Axiom factory. It would be great to meet you and show you our facility.

John, i think it is safe to say that if anyone contributes to this form, in a constructive intelligent way their opinion will be respected no matter what their personal opinion is (your post is a prime example)... Where a lot of the members on this form have a problem, is when people come here and just type ignorant and incoherent posts.... If you wright with the intellect of an 8 year old, would one really expect to be taking seriously and treated as an adult?

There were a couple people who were posting negative things on this form, when i attempted to read their posts i got a headache due to the horrid writing.. Granted, not everyone has perfect grammar/spelling/sentence construction ect, but come on at least try to construct a coherent paragraph...

Like Mark said, you took the time to make a well written post. I read your whole post, and and am not steaming due to the poor writing.. So, good job, and thank you!

Thats an understatement. The blind listening test you set up for us last summer was the most interesting audio thing I have ever done.

OK, now I'm feeling guilty about calling the Studio 100s dead sexy. I can feel my M80s glaring at me as I type. Do you think I can make them feel better by telling them they are girl next door sexy??

I'm sure they would appreciate it and their performance will improve as well.

I like to thank Ian for the kind replies and the invite, would love to see axioms home. I've been up in sundridge for vacation the last 20 years but did not make it there last year. Might just see you this year though. Thanks to everyone else for the kind replies also.

Welcome, John, and thank you for a well thought out post offering a different view--it is appreciated. It's easy to get caught up in the which speaker, or component is "better" argument, after all, most of us want our stuff to be as good as can be. Maybe a more constructive way to look at it is to think of speaker A being "different" from speaker B, rather than better. Like you said, the "better than" argument may tend to step on others' toes, sometimes without meaning to.

Having listened to a handful of different speakers myself, although not in a double blind test, the one thing I've gathered from it all is the similarly good descriptive that Ian spoke about. At the end of the day, all the different components end up doing the same thing--letting us listen to music for our enjoyment. Some just do it with a different flavor. And there ain't nothin' wrong with that!

John, I hope you continue to stick around a post in the forum.

John, welcome. We appreciated reading your thoughtful post. I'll comment on your observation that sometimes people get tired of the term "similarly good". Ian briefly touched on this in his reply to you, and the reality in my view is as he stated: differences among audio components where audible differences do it fact exist(i.e., speakers)are far less than sometimes stated. Terms which have no reasonable application in this connection, e.g. "huge", "night-and-day", "blows away", etc., are sometimes casually thrown about. Hopefully thoughtful listeners wouldn't get tired of a term that in many cases is simply a statement of reality.

Johnk. As always I'm blown away by your sensible approach to things.

This is why i abhor the use of the term "upgrade" most especially when it is applied to the more expensive or latest speaker design vs. less expensive or previous models.


I share Ian's idea for tanking the terms "similarly good".
Just let people figure it out on their own.