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Re: The Daily Gripe
MMM #405223 06/08/14 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Gripe: Why do builders do dumb things when building houses? House is 16 years old and ...


I want to know why the electrical code still allows for a hot wire (black) to be connected to a light socket, and have the switch close the circuit (black & white)? Rather than have the hot wire must go the the switch, and have the light socket close the circuit? That way when the light switch is off, there is no power going to the light socket and you can't electrocute yourself.

My whole basement was done wrong.. well it doesn't even meet code as they used black and white wires rather than back and red it indicate they both can be hot. Lucky for me I turned off the power and checked the junction box before assuming it was done correctly.

Doesn't any contractor take pride in their work and do it right the first time.


Gawd, Matt, whadda I gotta do, publish my CV to keep you off my toeses? Ya couldn't have gone after the cable guy or the mailman? Noooooo! You had to go and take down ALL trades guys at once, didn't you?

What's next? Let's say bad things about seniors? Or how about totally innocent gay people, minding their own business, who would never, ever say anything unseemly about anyone. Hey, how about Americans at large? Or just a specific one, like, umm, JP? When will this stop?!

Being really good at whatever one does is not necessarily about
getting it right the first time, but not leaving it until it is.

The bulk of people doing ANYYTHING, do it either poorly or with full-tilt mediocrity, and that is throughout history.

The people who are really good at anything will always be fewer than the amount of people needed to keep up with demand.

Those few people always charge more than "the rest" and are solidly booked. That leaves most people (homeowners, GC's, property owners/mgrs. (the worst), designers, et al) with having to choose from "those left behind."

Lots of times, all of the above mentioned HAD the choice and opted for the cheapest bid, no matter.

In short, "pride" costs time and money that most people just won't spend. I am old and still, I do not remember a time when such things weren't so.

Who gives whatever it takes to make it right, free-time be damned? Idiots, that's who! I am guilty on both counts.

Does that make me noble? Not at all. It makes and keeps me poor.


That DOES feel better! I didn't even have a gripe until I read the recent posts on this thread. Thanks, Matt!


Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405233 06/08/14 10:14 PM
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Seniors?? Them's fightin words...

TAM

Re: The Daily Gripe
exlabdriver #405236 06/08/14 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: exlabdriver
Seniors?? Them's fightin words...

TAM

We'll have Debbie set up a ring at the get together. Should be fun


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405237 06/08/14 11:19 PM
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Exquisite, Bob. You made my day.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: The Daily Gripe
MMM #405239 06/08/14 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: oakvillematt
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Gripe: Why do builders do dumb things when building houses? House is 16 years old and ...


I want to know why the electrical code still allows for a hot wire (black) to be connected to a light socket, and have the switch close the circuit (black & white)? Rather than have the hot wire must go the the switch, and have the light socket close the circuit? That way when the light switch is off, there is no power going to the light socket and you can't electrocute yourself.

My whole basement was done wrong.. well it doesn't even meet code as they used black and white wires rather than back and red it indicate they both can be hot. Lucky for me I turned off the power and checked the junction box before assuming it was done correctly.

Doesn't any contractor take pride in their work and do it right the first time.


That is up to code. A white wire after the panel can be used as an identified wire to a switch. Down on white, back on black. Any electrician would know this going into a switch box, or a fixture box. Sounds like it was done correctly to me. Rest easy. smile


Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405240 06/09/14 12:07 AM
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AFAIK, red wires are only used in 220/240V circuits. See this http://www.nojolt.com/Understanding_240_volt_circuits.shtml


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: The Daily Gripe
AAAA #405242 06/09/14 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now


That is up to code. A white wire after the panel can be used as an identified wire to a switch. Down on white, back on black. Any electrician would know this going into a switch box, or a fixture box. Sounds like it was done correctly to me. Rest easy. smile





If you took a look at the photograph, you would see that they put a black tape onto the white line to signify that it is being used as a hot line.

According to my conversations with the ESA who happen to set the standards here in Ontario, the whole of the exposed wire needs to be actually covered, not just a small band.

As for red wire being used for 240v. That is not true. If you were to run a 3 way light switch, then you would most likely use 14/3 wire that has 1 white, 1 black and 1 red wire + ground. The red wire would be used in the 120v circuit.



The 3 way switch toggles what line it sends the voltage down, so it could be the black is hot, or it could be the red depending on what side the switch is on. As you put 2 of these switched on the same circuit, it allows the light to be controlled from two different locations. So RED does not mean 240, it means it can be a hot line.

Now the ESA has told me that they will accept either a hot line to be red or back, and if you are using a white cable, then the whole of the exposed cable needs to be covered. In my case, the contractor didn't. I get the distinct feeling that is was not done by a qualified electrician as there was NO ESA tag on the electrical panel with the ESA tag number for the job. Any electrician would by default pull an ESA tag because not doing to could result in loosing his license.

Sorry if I come across as tarring all contractors. I know there are many that do an exceptional job. The one that did this basement didn't. Just like the contractor who originally built the house didn't go a very good job either. Things like double studs at the doors. Putting a ground wire onto electrical plugs to the metal box. Not having exposed wires when using the stab points on an electrical outlet. Small details that should have been caught but weren't.

But as you said Bob.. The owner before me probably went with the lesser price and didn't know enough to know it was done wrong. So I vent my frustration that some people out there don't take enough pride in their work to do it right and pray on the ignorance of others by cutting corners. To justify it by saying that they charged less so what did the customer expect is a bit of a crock. it's like GM saying that the customer should have known better in buying their cars with a faulty ignition switch rather than paying more and getting a mercedes benz. They paid less so why should they expect to get something that works properly and not kill them.


Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405243 06/09/14 02:13 AM
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And BTW: the way the contractor hooked mine up was not like the photograph you provided.

In your picture, from the line coming in, they took the (white) neutral to the light fixture, and the hot to an outgoing line that has the switch.

In my case, they ran the power line into a junction box, and ganged up 3 lights and hooked up the (black) hot to the group of lights, then took the returning white and put them all together with the while wire going out to the switch (these white wires are now actually HOT). Then put the (white) neutral from the power line in and connected it to the black going out to the switch.

All in all, done totally wrong.

Last edited by oakvillematt; 06/09/14 02:15 AM. Reason: to make sense.

Anthem: AVM60, Fosi DAC-Q5
Axiom: ADA1500, LFR1100 Actiive, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp, M5
Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405250 06/09/14 09:44 AM
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You had me at using stab quickwire connection. Definitely not a legit electrician. Soooo scabby.

Re: The Daily Gripe
nickbuol #405257 06/09/14 02:21 PM
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We just need to all get smart lights with wireless power, then none of the wiring colors will matter. smile

Gripe of the day: It is too dang humid when you are sweating and it is only 70F outside. Thanks Baltimore...

They aren't running much A/C inside either, so it is taking a bit to "dry off" after the 1 mile walk to the office from the hotel.

Darn mother nature!


Farewell - June 4, 2020
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