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#392674 - 05/04/13 01:08 AM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: JohnK]
brwsaw Offline

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1272
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: JohnK
First point, LFE is low frequency effects occasionally present in the .1 channel in movies. Music has no LFE. With the notable exception of pipe organ music there's almost no bass content below about 40Hz.

Bass frequencies require no more power for a given level than any other; e.g., 20Hz, 200Hz and 2000Hz at 80dB use the same power. What is different is that deep bass frequencies are less audible to humans than are higher frequencies at the same dB level. If you want to make them more audible(or at least equally audible)in relation to the rest of the music, the simplest move is to turn up the bass tone control. There are also built-in or separate parametric equalizers to try to do this a bit more precisely. This boosted audibility of the lowest bass isn't "natural", of course.

So no, your system isn't "holding up the lower frequencies" and you aren't "missing something" that you're supposed to hear.

No LFE. The missing piece of the puzzle.
I should have know that, I turn my subs off when using Pure Direct.
Anyway I figured it out. I turned my subs down on each subs back panel. Turns out they both sound better at a +/-33% setting. Theres more reverb/realism to the drums.

Edited by brwsaw (05/04/13 01:09 AM)

#392716 - 05/04/13 05:09 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
exlabdriver Online   content

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1316
The lowest note on my 5-String Electric Bass is 'B0' - 30Hz or so.

The fat 'B' string is rarely played 'open' though so the vast majority of notes are higher than 30 Hz...


#392718 - 05/04/13 06:21 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: exlabdriver]
brwsaw Offline

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1272
Loc: Canada
I think they were set +/- 5% too high and the sound/detail wasn't being heard over the volume/difference.
Cross over at 80, both subs volume at 33%, AVR @ 0.
I've tried different cross overs but not since changing the subs volume.
Clearly I don't know as much about the technical side of setting up my system as most here. I know more than most in my circle, that's enough.
I enjoy the tweaking and will live with it as is for a while.

#392720 - 05/04/13 07:28 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
fredk Offline

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7449
Loc: Canada
Have you compared the M80s in pure direct to the M80s set to small with the subs?

2 things come to mind: your subs may not be optimally placed, your subs are not very capable in the 40-80 Hz region.

I know that with music, pipe organ excepted, I can't tell the difference between M80s alone vs M80s + ep350.

Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

#392722 - 05/04/13 09:39 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1272
Loc: Canada
It could be everythings normal. I'd have no way of knowing.
The subs are in the front corners outside the M80's.
The Paradigm PS1200v4 is on the left half its width off the side wall half its depth of the rear wall.
Low Frequency Extension: 21Hz (DIN)
The Paradigm DSP3100 is on the right half its width off the side wall half its depth off the rear wall.
Low-Frequency Extension*24 Hz (DIN)
I do get some very nice lows from them but until I turned them down it wasn't quite right.
I'm tempted to turn the subs down to +/-25% on the back panels and adjust the AVR up a few db.

#392730 - 05/05/13 01:51 AM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I'll take a shot and say you are used to the way these songs sound on your old speakers which might not have had a flat response and boosted the bass a little too much and as the others have stated you are not looking for extremely low bass, ie. 20 hz and lower unless you are listening to pipe organ music. Most music bass is 30 hz and up and for the most part as was previously stated , 60 hz and up to provide that punchy bass, is what most are looking for from music and your M80s are more than capable of producing these frequencies. 65 SPL is pretty low volume for a speaker to play bass frequencies with authority(noticeable) unless they have a boosted FR in this region or some other anomaly that gives perceived better bass.

You could always add some bass boost via the receiver to enhance the response for low level SPL listening.


#392733 - 05/05/13 12:20 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
casey01 Offline

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 808
Loc: Toronto
I haven't seen it mentioned yet but, have you checked your phase position on the subs because improper setting in this category can also affect what your hearing especially when you have more than one sub from different manufacturers interacting with your Axiom mains. In music the vast majority of bass is not much below 60HZ and that is only when played at the lowest register which in most cases is not always done by the player on the recording. I also find bass response can vary widely in different recordings. There is rarely anything below 20HZ anyway even in movies and if it is present, you will feel it not hear it. The very deep bass in movies can generally only be heard at relatively high volumes, otherwise, if it was mixed at louder levels with moderate volume, when cranked up to movie levels, it would more than likely overdrive your speakers, even your subs.

The human ear(and even SPL meters)do not hear or measure bass accurately below 50HZ and like the highs, it gets worse the older you get so the controls should be adjusted accordingly. This is probably one of the main reasons why not everyone likes the results from "room correction" systems. Sometimes what the AVR measures as being accurate in your room does not always translate to what your ears are hearing(or like).

The older AVRs had a bass boost button which was specifically designed to be used primarily at lower volumes to compensate for that hearing loss in that range. At higher volumes, it was way too much. The 80HZ crossover which has always been the THX standard for movies just seems to be the most flexible for all types of listening, so set it to that number, make sure your sub phases are correct and adjust the sub volume to taste and you should be fine with the ultimate goal of hearing the music/movies the way they are suppose to sound.

Edited by casey01 (05/05/13 12:31 PM)

#392736 - 05/05/13 04:24 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1272
Loc: Canada
Its all good.

#392752 - 05/05/13 11:46 PM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
brwsaw Offline

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1272
Loc: Canada
" To me low volume is below -25 db which my wife still thinks is loud'ish."

@ -25 in 2 channel and 2 subs it does feel like theres an LFE signal. I can feel it in my chest and the spl meter on my phones only registering 78-80 as is right l this.
I love this hobby.

#392775 - 05/06/13 08:28 AM Re: LFE at low volume [Re: brwsaw]
Boltron Offline

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 171
Loc: Toronto
The hobby is fun, it does get costly. My challenge is sneaking in new stuff without the wife noticing... I am now thinking of replacing my VP150 with a VP180, I will need much smoke and mirrors to get this past her...

Also I am sure you already know this but 2ch music does not include a LFE channel, it's actually your receiver routing low frequencies to LFE and your subs.
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.

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