Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion What's New At Axiom New HIgh Powered Versions

With the advent of our new High Powered woofer for the M100 we had a lot of requests to make High Powered versions of the M60, M80, VP160, and VP180 M60 , M80 , VP160, and VP180. So we did. The voice coil has been modified to work in a 2-woofer version as opposed to the 3-woofers that come with the M100s. The advantage to the High Power versions is not so much in the depth of bass but in the max SPL capabilities of the bass and the linearity of the bass down to 30 Hz. For large rooms and/or high volume listening without a subwoofer the High Power versions are the way to go. They will play incredibly loud without any compression in the bass. We have added buttons on the product pages of the M60, M80, VP160, and VP180 to select either Standard or High Power. The High Power versions come stock with die cast baskets and bi-wirable inputs and a brand new 10-year warranty. These High Power versions will begin shipping in mid-December and we have a really good pre-order deal on offer between now and the end of October.

I can't believe you guys came out with an extra-loud version of the M80, right after I got mine.. D:

Will it be possible to upgrade existing speakers by swapping out the drivers?

Hi rcb,

The crossover is also different so it is not just a driver switch but it is no problem as you can trade them up for the High Power version. Brent will be in touch to let you know the details to do this.

Hi Ian; how much would the high-power version of the M80s be? Christmas is around the corner and one needs to start budgeting :-).

Hi Adrian,

It would depend on the age of your M80s. The best bet would be to call Brent and have him work it out for you.

are there any specs on these yet ?

I knew this would eventually happen

Truly an exiting time at axiom, alot of new & improved products, thanks Ian for all the good work you guys have done. looking forward in updating my gear, hope that new subs are also in the works!

Ian do the Vp180 Hp's 5.25 drivers come with the cast baskets?

The specs for each version will update when you select Standard or High Powered at the top of each product page. The High Powered versions come stock with the 5.25" die cast baskets.

I'm not seeing the advantage of the high powered version. Is it just to get more volume into a large room? Are there any other advantages other than that for a normal listening environment.?

I'm not seing any difference either. Freq. Resp are identical. the only difference I see is, 1db less in each the SPL's.
IS the only reason to get these to be able to play louder ? because right now my M80's are loud enough.
not sure the cost to upgrade is worth it for me, just to get more volumn. I would love a little more bottom end, definded bottom end. other than that nothing a good sub or two would cure

From a straight performance point of view at normal listening levels, in a normal sized room, with normal amplifier power, and using a subwoofer in your system I would not see any need to get the High Power version. Our main reason for bringing out the High Power versions is a recent resurgence in 2-channel systems. A lot of people are either setting up dedicated stereo systems or listening to their music collection in straight stereo as opposed to using a surround mode. Some of these systems utilize large power amps with no subwoofer; these sorts of setups should definitely use the High Power version. The advantages are a more linear bass below 70 Hz and a much higher maximum SPL before distortion or compression. If you are using your M60s or M80s with a subwoofer crossed over at the standard 80 Hz then these advantages will become somewhat moot. There will still be some advantages in maximum SPL above the 80 Hz crossover point, and if you have big amplification in a big room it is certainly worth considering the High Power version even with the subwoofer always in play.

Hi Ian; thank you for the answer(s). My listening room is about 950 sq ft and ~6000 cu ft. I am very pleased with the M80s but hey... if I can do better for not a lot of money I'm all for it.
I do sometimes like to listen very loud and I have two monoblocks pumping 350W/channel, so I think I will benefit from the high power version of the M80.

Hi Adrian,

That is a huge space you have and a lot of power to boot. The High Powered version makes sense in your application. If your current M80s are more than a year old there will be another big benefit in making the change in that you will get the latest crossover with the our most recent upgrades to the family of curves.

My M80s will be two years old in December; they are in in perfect condition, both sonically and cosmetically.

I will definitely get in touch with Brent; thanks Ian!

Thanks Ian,

Ok. My current setup is, I have the M80's 6months old.
I just sold my Anthem MRX500. A few reasons, but love the sound and loved the ARC ( not sure which is better really ARC or Audessey ) I am trying to decide what to order next week the Denon x4000 or Anthems new MRX510 and an external amp,
so I am thinking of buying a 300wpc XPA-3 or if I can maybe order the ADA1000 3ch. I just found the MRX500 100wpc just not enough.
SO, my room is being built now it is 11.6W x 22L x 8H ...2000cf

I listen to music and music video's in 2ch or 2.2ch. My reciever did allow movie setup and music. I have two bluray players one for movies for 7.2 and the other would switch to 2ch stereo but had to run subs as just didn't find enough uhmph. I would rather however, that said I found a little more boomy at times. I would rather not run subs. But, maybe I just need to upgrade those to EP500's ??

My question is, either the MRX or X4000 allows dual speaker setups. I can congifure for 2.2ch music or 2.0ch music and if watching movies 7.2 with a complete second set of speakers. I think I really like the sat/sub setup with movies.

in my room size with either XPA or ADA power amp at a decent volumn, I am not looking to concert levels or have ears ringing but maybe a little louder than when watching movies ..... would I be better off to keep the M80 and maybe upgrade the subs ?

Hi Troy,

I don't think that upgrading your M80s to the high power version is really going to give you much extra uhmph over your "regular" pair. I do think that a subwoofer upgrade would benefit your system. If you indeed have Energy ESW10s then EP500s would walk all over them. They are good subs but they are an entry level product and not nearly as linear as the EP500. If you had Energy ESW-V10s then you would be talking about a closer match to the EP500, but none of the Energy subwoofers have DSP control like the EP500.

Hi Ian, Andrew and others:

(Not knowing were to put this ... I'll put it here ...)

I've been following Axiom for quite a few years; planning my HT which will hopefully be reality around 2015 (maybe 2016). Not that I would not want it sooner but because the wife and I can not agree on how big the house expansion plan should be (and if a HT should even be in it). Anyway, one of the products I'd like to use is a tactile transducer. The existing ones are ether too expensive (Clark Synthesis Gold and Platinum) or not really great music wise (not that I know I would be able to tell the difference). Given these new high power woofers ... it seems like the next step is to go Infrasonic ...

Would Axiom be interested in a tactile transducer product. I'm sure you guys could produce a good one at 1/2 (1/3?) the price of a Clark.

Interested what your thoughts are ...

Richard

I’ve been looking to upgrade my 5.1 setup including 5 year old M60 V2s and Epik Empire sub (with vp150 and QS8s). Listening area is 2800 cf with about 12 feet from speakers. The bass is far from weak, but I crave more from my mains. Another sub is probably in order, but I'm reading that the M100s have significantly more bass output than the M80s. Leaning towards the LFR880s...would you recommend the high power versions that have the drivers of the M100s in my case to satisfy what I currently consider a bass deficiency? Listening content is pretty broad from classical to a lot of electronic dance music. With the inclusion of the Axiom amp/dsp with the LFRs, the volume I suspect will go much higher that what I typically have it at with my M60s. Thanks.

Louder than M60s? Holy crap Dude! How loud do you listen?
Even with just a 110 watt/channel amp and M60s, mine can already play ear-splitting loud at clean levels in a larger area.

Perhaps you were just referring to increased bass levels? The answer is probably a definitive "yes" to both scenarios but my ears hurt just thinking about it if you meant volume in general.

Well, I can only have them but so loud before they start to sound bad in my opinion. Maybe it's part distortion but the "brightness" people talk about especially with the M60s seems to become more pronounced when I really crank it up and the high frequencies just become too much. I'm powering the whole setup with one of the older non-elite mid level Pioneer receivers and it seems to work really hard with especially loud cooling fans kicking in when the volume goes to anything over -10.

But yeah...needs moarbass!

Sounds like you're reaching the limits of your gear - probably the amp is starting to protest & going into or close to clipping.

Not good for your system nor your ears, ha!

TAM

that sounds like clipping to me.

Right. I don't have it that loud often but over time it's been bothering me that I cannot get more out of the speakers. By upgrading to the LFR880 or 1100s with a separate amp all to themselves and upgrading my receiver with pre-amp possibly for the center and surrounds, this problem should then most likely not be a factor, correct?

To clarify is Crimson Wrath running out of amp,speaker capability or both?

I'm pretty sure it's the former.

Almost assuredly his Pioneer receiver is the 'weak' link if he wants to push the volume. He doesn't state his exact model but M60s can take much more than any mid range receiver can dish out.

Also, I disagree that M60s are "bright". I only hear "bright" if I play bright source material. The term is subjective though for most, so it's not an argument, I just personally would not describe them that way.

Putting aside safe listening levels, I would agree that the receiver is likely clipping when it hits its limits. This results in audible distortion and as mentioned, can damage your gear. If you push it too much, the speaker might fail which makes people think it's the weak link. However, it is actually the clipped audio signal that was damaging the speaker. It's not the speakers fault.

If you need to go louder and remain clean, you are on the right track. Invest in more power. Just remember that once you hit those very loud levels, it can take exponentially much more power to get even just a slight bit louder. Eventually you hit a point where adding another 100+ watts to the total is not even noticeable.

You might try adding a really good sub to the mix first though. There is nothing like having your shirt vibrate to satisfy the loudness craving without even having to touch the volume dial. That won't solve the clipping at existing levels though. You still need more power for that.

In any case, do what makes you happy to listen to music. That is the end goal here.

Am I reading your sig correctly that your receiver is the VSX-919? I looked this up and the manufacturer claims 120 watts per channel. This is just less than half of the power available in each channel of an ADA1000. However, most likely the Pioneer claimed power is somewhat high. Anyway, that means most likely you could expect that an ADA1000 would produce a clean listening level somewhere around 3db louder (at least) as compared to your receiver alone.

I'm not sure that would be enough to make you happy. However, given that your receiver doesn't have a preamp out, your options to upgrade are limited unless you're willing to replace the receiver itself.

I personally have an ADA1500 driving the four channels of my LFR1100's, with another amp (Parasound) driving the centre and my two surrounds. Is this enough power? Most likely, yes!

Given your taste in music and knowing that you like it loud, I'd certainly recommend the "high power" version of the woofers in whichever Axiom speakers you get next!

I can guarantee you this statement is correct (running out of amp).. I was powering my M60's with one the below amps.. well, the next generation, a CX.. But, the spec's are pretty much the same. The M60's never flinched, and got louder than i would ever want and sounded great the entire way up...

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/krell_fpb300c.htm
The 300cx is what i have.
http://www.krellonline.com/assets/support/0162_020_MAN.pdf

My "usual" music listening volume is around 90db, in a space that is approximately 2400cu/ft space..

The amp is now powering the front drivers of a pair of LFR's...

Also, i have 2 EP 600's.. The subs will add a LOT of volume to the room, especially in the lower frequencies, for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the input everyone. Yes, my receiver is the Pioneer VSX-919. This was my first sound non-HTIB system and I skimped on the dedicated amp due to cost. Now I have a much bigger room with 2800 cf and a bigger budget to upgrade I'll definitely be going with more power (not $10k, but something sufficient) and probably an additional sub (hopefully I can match my Epik to have dual matching Empires, though they no longer make them). I'll probably upgrade to a Pioneer Elite also.

The new towers couldn't hurt (too).
Just saying...

Hi Crimson Wrath

As has been noted by others the reason you are running into the harshness or brightness in the high frequencies at higher volume levels is your amp clipping. Your Pioneer is rated at 120 watts with one channel driven which is not a lot of total system power. Typically receivers also employ a switching power supply rated to the maximum output specified which means there will be no dynamic headroom above the 120 watts. Dynamic headroom is important to avoid clipping as it can give you useful dynamic capabilities in excess of double the rated power. This is why we use linear power supplies with large (and heavy) toroidal transformers and loads of capacitor storage. When you add together the much higher rated power output of an ADA amplifier and all the dynamic headroom they incorporate you will get the high volume without distortion you are looking for. Murph mentioned the exponential nature of amp power earlier which is an important part of this equation also. Every time you double the amp power you only gain 3dB more in output before clipping; which means big spaces and/or higher desired listening levels require loads of amp power.

The LFR880s would be a good option since you can get the optional ADA1000 DSP/amp combo unit with high level inputs that will work from your Pioneer VSX-919 receiver. Now I am wondering if we shouldn’t have a 5-channel version of this available with a centre channel high level input to allow the entire front of the system to be driven with a high power ADA1000-5 amp just leaving the surrounds to be driven by the receiver amp.

The above said if you do make the jump to the Pioneer Elite you can get the model that incorporates pre-amp outputs and then go to something really big like the ADA1500-5 for the front channels.

A response from the president of the company, wow...now that's customer service. Decisions, decisions. The price difference in the LFR1100s and LFR880s doesn't seem that much in the high powered versions overall I guess, to get the most drivers available (bigger is always better here in 'Merica). Though obviously a bit more power would be needed. It looks like there's a bit of a discount for the ADA1000/DSP combination when purchased with a pair of omnidirectionals, as opposed to an ADA1000 purchased separately. Goodbye, bank account

Hi Ian,

I like your idea of a five-channel version DSP/ADA combo. Also, is it possible to source or design a chassis big enough to allow for the DSP plus a choice of any of your amp modules -- that is, 1000/1250/1500? Or could you perhaps somehow fit the DSP plus a reduced number (only up to four or five) of the bigger amp modules into the existing chassis? Especially with the LFR1100's and High Powered Woofer option, I think customers would benefit from an integrated DSP/ADA unit with more power available! That's what I probably would have chosen if it had been available.

Great work on all the new stuff by the way!!

Hi Cohesion,

It really does come down to real estate in the chassis. We are going to see if we can fit all the necessary components into an ADA100-5 amp chassis to allow the centre channel to run through there too. The ADA1250 and ADA1500 will be pretty much impossible to squeeze it all in but we could make a separate 2U chassis size DSP with the centre channel high level input that could then connect to an ADA1250 or ADA1500. Let’s see what we can figure out next week and I will let you know.

Ian, i would venture to guess that most people who would be interested in a
ADA 1200/1500 setup, would be fine with a larger chassis... Granted going this route, those 2 products would have their own chassis, due to the nature of not being able to use "off the shelf" parts for you guys would add some additional cost for the different chassis.

But, i would guess that people looking for a product like that would be willing to pay the difference?

I'm feeling so inadequate with my mid-level Denon driving my HT & my 30 W/Ch tube amp driving my audio system...

TAM

With the ADA1250/ADA1500 is comes down to a couple of issues beyond physical space:

Both of these amplifiers use a power supply "motherboard" that covers the entire bottom of the chassis. There are very high currents circulating on this PCB that would easily cause noise issues for the sensitive, low-level DSP.

There is also a lack of a suitable power supply for the DSP which would require an additional transformer and power supply PCB...yet more sources of noise and potential interference. The best bet from a performance standpoint is unfortunately separate chassis.

We can get away with the integrated system using the ADA1000 because of the different power supply configuration in that amplifier and the fact that we have the required power supply available.

O.k so the new towers did hurt a bit.
Moving on, can we see the frequency and impedance graphs for the new high powered towers?
I'd also like to confirm, shouldn't they be more efficient than the V3 M80? I thought they had new magnet structures?? to go with the new voice coils. Maybe I'm mixing up/combining different products?

Why would you think they would be more efficient?

I found Ian's post, #394133. Guess I could have looked a bit harder. I didn't see it on the ordering page, I'm sure it will be soon.
I'm still learning so forgive me, I assumed larger magnets drew power easier.

Any word on a delivery date for the M80 high powered version? I have had a deposit in since September 16. Missed them for Thanksgiving, hoping for Xmas.

Best thing is to giv'em a call to find out...

If I remember correctly Brent said they'll be starting the production run around the 7th.

Wow things have really changed, my understanding was that as soon as payment was made they would ship, max in the next couple of days of your payment. If I understand what your saying now is, they pile up a bunch of orders and when they have enough orders and materials they go into production?

perhaps side effects of this though economy?

I don't think anything has changed.

Axiom does NOT keep large inventory on hand, and has always run batches of speakers/finishes.

My conjecture would be that parts availability and production schedules are more critical on this issue than "the economy".

Reasons given so far: overwhelming response to the trade-in offer, still waiting for enough woofers to be made, my order was erronously charged to someone else so my card was flagged and shut down, and shipping out is based on the dates of the orders. Just the facts so far, opinions I leave open.

makes sense, I hope they will keep you posted...

Agreed, it only makes sense to do production runs where/when possible.
Especially when considering quality control and the potential to offset additional costs incurred by custom orders.

We have a few different ship times depending on the type of order it is. I will go through them one by one.

For our standard stock products they will ship within 3 business days. If there is an exception to this for parts availability we will change the ship time on our site from 3 days to whatever numbers of days are necessary for us to manufacture the parts.

For custom orders placed through “Customize Yours” the ship time will change automatically depending on the option selected.

For factory outlet orders there are varying ship times for each product that we update each week to fit current production schedules and quantities on order at the time.

For new products we tend to always do a pre-order special when the design is done and all the parts are in our production schedule. These can be really tough to estimate to an exact time but we can generally get pretty close. For the High Powered versions of our current M80 and VP180 our estimate of starting to ship in mid-December is still looking good. The other thing that can happen with new products is we have to estimate the demand in advance of any history on the model. Depending how many orders we get the entire first run can sell out. In the case of the M100s both the entire first and second runs were sold out in the pre-sale. We ship pre-orders in the order in which we received them. Also with new products the first production runs are usually pretty poky so it can take a while to get through the first run and get all the pre-orders shipped.

For layaways we ship them within time frame on our site for that model from the day the final payment is received.

Then there are the exceptions to all of the above. This will happen when we get a rush of unexpected orders on a particular model in a single day that causes us to run out of some part or another before we can change the ship time on the site. The other exception is when we end up with less of some particular part then our system says we have. Fortunately that does not happen very often but seems to follow Murphy’s law pretty well when it does.

Thank you for those explanations, nice to deal with a company run by real people! By the way, when the M80's do arrive, I will need to re-calibrate my Harman Kardon 1650. I went into the menu and got totally turned around: what is the "transducer size" for the original ep500 sub and what crossover settings should I use for everything else? Will all of these be correct if I use the EZY automatic set up? Forget calling HK and talking to India. Is there anyone out there that knows how to get the best out of this HK unit? (I know it is not too high end but its what I have for now). Thanks in advance.

Is there a M3 powered version in your plan by the way? While they are great bookshelf with accurate bass I think they would win with a little extra bass output.

Someone mentioned before (forget who) that the high powered version of the bass drivers are designed for dedicated woofer applications in a speaker and not as a midrange/woofer like what you see in the standard 6.5" drive unit used in the M3.

Few quick and simple questions.

1. Will the High Powered M80s provide a more aggressive base sound at moderate to high volume compared to the regular M80s?

2. If so, will the difference be signficant enough for me to go "whoah, thats more base. I can feel the pressure in my chest" or will the difference be subtle?

3. What the heck is SPL? I've been reading that its just a calculation based on watts, distance from a speaker etc. How does SPL actually manifest itself in a tangile way?

4. Do you sacrifice anything by going to the high powered version?

I'm using a Denon x4000 receiver.

Thanks.

SPL is Sound Pressure Level, measured in dB (Decibels). It's how loud the sound is that's reaching your ears. That's why distance matters, the pressure level drops as it covers a larger area.

It takes twice the power to affect a 3 dB increase, but the human ear needs about 10 dB for it to seem that the volume level has doubled.

Well the high powered M80s have an SPL that's 1dB lower than the regular. That confuses me. I'm considering them because I want a more robust bass output. If the SPL is lower wouldn't that mean less air is being moved?

If so why the higher price?

That's sensitivity, or how loud a speaker will be when only given 1 Watt (and listening at 1 meter away). So the version with greater power handling needs a tiny bit more power to reach the same output level.

Another thing to consider is for dbl the volumn level take double the wattage. That said, with your X4000 you would run out pretty fast. I am told these are great if you have a high power amp. ADA 1250 or Emotiva AXP2 etc.

These HP Speakers will probably suck the power supply in the Denon dry pretty fast.

I don't understand how loud you really need to play, I have a HK 3490 now and M80's I sit in a room 20 x 13 x 8 and Speakers are set 11 ft apart I sit 13 ft away and if I get to +5 I sure as heck can feel air movement and I only got two Energy 10ESW subs. This reciever is a 2ch 165w per, I couldn't even phathom a 450 w power amp at loud volumn unless it was outdoors

I haven't gotten past 0 yet. It's not so much volume that I'm looking for. I want a little umfp in my chest.

I wonder why the mids don't need to be upgraded to a high power version? Will the mids or the tweeters be the weakest link now in terms of distortion at high volume?

run EZY setup. it will select a crossover point for you. You can change it is you need to later. M80 usually a good point to start is 60hz specially with a EP500.

The Umpf your looking for is going to be needing a ADA1250 and a couple EP500's
Like I said before I have a HK3490 and 165 w 2 ch , and two ESW 10 subs and at -5db I get air movement, but it is loud as H3LL.
as for the mids and tweets, why high power these don't need to be high power all the balls are in the bottom end. The woofers are what moves air and require the most power. a tweeter is so high frequency it takes nothing to produce.
I know this is not accurate and it all depends on music, movie what is being played and other things going on, but if your using 100w in an instant of whatever it is the woofers probably take 75w , mids 20w at the tweeters may use 5w.

Thanks troyd. That is kinda what I was hoping for. Now all I need are the M80's. After today's phone call, I find out I will probably not have them for Xmas. More than 3 months for delivery??
Order was placed September 16.

Good news, spoke to Brent-delivery possible last week of December or first week of January. Better late than never!

I does seem odd it would take that long. Did he comment as to why?

See earlier post #399068.

I was gonna say... I've never had a delay like that from Axiom, not even close.
I missed the credit card part when you originally posted it.

The credit card issue actually had nothing to do with the order being placed. The lack of available high-powered woofers and crossovers, the large number of orders placed with the trade-in promotion, and the good quality control (I hope!)of a small company are the main delayers. Had I gone with the regular M-80's, I would have had them in time for the holidays. Oh well.

I just got the email from Brent stating that my M80HP speakers are shipped today !

Sweet, hope you got a tracking number so you check up on them every hour on the hour

So what amp did you go with... what is your end result?

I have the mrx500 and love the sound field it produces (anthem room correction or ARC) , the only upgrade I would think about would be the new mrx510 mainly for the 4k processing unless a new audessey correction gets better than the ARC...

the m100's just sing with my mrx500 + emo amp, they give me the missing bass I had with the m80's, but I see my self giving in for a d-sonic or an Axiom ada-1500-7 before the end of the year..

Huh... time to bring back the M40 in High Power !!

I always liked the M40 for a 2-channel music system but had to agree it didn't make much sense in a home theater system.


Or not. Oh well

Holy Crap! It's BRIDGMAN!

Yeah, between the Canadian Whiskey thread and the 35th anniversary bash how could I resist ? Besides, I was missing you guys.

Hey, if you haven't read the "Positioning Floorstanding Speakers" newsletter article there's a nice section on square rooms

Did I actually say it was nice to have you back?

Oops, did I say that out loud ? Sorry

Missed you bridgman!

Only ~425 days to the next Axiom get together !!

Hoping to go