Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing

For Home Theatre purposes only.
And why does one always assume a person is going to put the speakers on a stand ? I firgure find the sweet spot and wall mount eliminating the need for a stand.

Larger enclosures make for more resonant cabinet panels. It is another law of physics which suggests larger panels will be less stiff overall than will smaller panels made of the same material(s). Additionally, the larger panel will have a resonant frequency which is more typically intrusive to the music by way of being placed closer to the range of human sensitivity to sound. In other words, larger floorstanding speaker panels are more likely to resonate within the frequency range where voices and primary instruments exist. Additionally, a larger, more massive panel structure would tend to hold onto its resonance for a longer period of time than would a smaller panel which might resonate at a much higher and, therefore, less intrusive frequency plus having the capacity to disipate the vibration sooner.

This one rule is typically why small bookshelf systems more easily disappear from the soundscape and tend not to draw attention to themself in a high quality consumer audio system. On the other hand, the larger panels on floorstanding systems have a more problematic tendency to have certain sounds "stick" to the cabinet. There are more reasons for this peculiar behavior of floorstanders than just panel resoannce but the florstander will often have to be designed with the physically larger diameter and/or multiple drivers used in such towers. The physical dimensions of the baffle on which the drivers will be mounted will ultimately contribute more to the system's final sound qualities than just panel resonance.

actually

http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/697744.html

I find the second comment on that page that bookshelf speakers "sound" better than floorstanders just ludicrous. There is no doubt speaker selection is a very subjective process, however, it has been written about many times before by people who know much more about this than I do is that whether it be music or movies, the bulk of sound comes in that midrange area of 500-4000HZ in which case with the multiple drivers of a floor standing speaker it allows one or more of those drivers to be assigned specifically to handle that particular frequency range, whereas, bookshelf speakers, aside from their limited enclosure size and number of drivers and types, in many cases, are essentially a rather large trade-off in that area of sound. If, by chance, the midrange sounds goods it is usually at the sacrifice of bass extension. Generally speaking and from my experience, with bookshelf speakers, you can't have it both ways and we are not even talking about the difference in efficiency and SPL capability.

I also just can't get my head around that some manufacturers will offer bookshelf speakers that cost $5000 or more a pair. I am sure some of them sound very good, however, the laws of physics still prevail and they are still limited in their sound capabilities, regardless of the manufacturer and/or its reputation. In my case, I have owned many speakers over the years both bookshelf and floorstanders culminating in my present M80s, whether it be movies or music, for the time being anyway, my quest has ended.

If you go by the point that the larger the enclosure, the more that certain frequencies get "stuck" on the larger surfaces (what?), then these would be awesome for quality, right?



OK. So I am adding a big healthy helping of sarcasm.

Without getting into both the physics and engineering - both areas of expertise for me - I can tell you that the "bookshelf" sized Totem Mani 2 is perhaps one of the finest speakers I have ever heard.

Expensive? Yes
Quality? Absolutely
Everyone's Choice? Absolutely not

I would say that they far outshine my M80's and previous AX3's in sound quality, but are far more expensive than either.

Here again, and as I was trying to point out above, speaker choices and their assessment are very subjective, i.e "beauty(and audio) is in the eye of the beholder".

Unfortunately, and especially considering their price point, my experience with Totem is quite the opposite. Because I was never really satisfied with what I was hearing, in the past few years I have purchased and eventually sold a number of centre channel speakers at various price points including the second from the top of the line Totem "Rainmaker" which sells for around $1000, yet is quite small in size. Totem offers no large centre channel models in their line.

Frankly, of all the speakers that I owned and tried in this centre channel group, it was the most expensive, yet, in my opinion, the most disappointing of the bunch. It has excellent build quality, yet, I had hoped for considerably better performance. Totem has made a lot of claims about this particular model, yet, in the end, it sounded just like any other $200-300 small unit many of which are made by the normal mainstream manufacturers. It is sitting in my basement collecting dust, eventually replaced by a VP180, in my mind anyway, just reinforcing the idea that even with a centre channel speaker, nothing beats a full range model.

Troy, after reading that thread I'm in general agreement with most of the points made in the post by Jan Vigne. My own listening is probably about 99/1 music/movie and getting the mid-range "right" is especially crucial for music. The M22s are outstanding in this respect and it should be kept in mind that they have two 5 1/4" drivers handling it, as does the M80. The M60, with the larger enclosure, has one of the 5 1/4" drivers. As a result, the M22 has the capacity to "play louder" than the M60 in this key range and has slightly higher sensitivity there. Sensitivity is generally measured in the mid-range(the NRC spec is typical and is from 300Hz to 3000Hz)and the Axiom spec is 87dB for the M60 and 89dB for the M22. Since the size of the enclosure in itself has no direct effect on mid-range efficiency, as expected the two drivers vs one which the M22 has give it the edge there.

So yes, a larger enclosure can be tuned for lower and louder bass response, but has no advantage in the mid-range and treble with other drivers being the same, and may be at some disadvantage, as was pointed out by Vigne.

Casey, you seem to be forgetting the fact that the bookshelf are not reproducing the bottom end. Only need them for the 80hz and up, where they excel. The subs will take care of the bottom end.
I don't need the book shelfs to go into the lower frequencies at all.
I just want them to work where they are suppose too midrange and highs.

Now, if Axiom can make a high end bookshelf, like they have up graded the M80/100. I think I would probably take a great M22 plus for my movie room over my M80's.

currently the M22 are what $522. the M80's $1500

why not redesign or improve the M22'2 into a $1500 bookshelf. Give it kick a$$ mid's

I know the M22 will fill my movie room easily, pair it with a Axiom 1200 amp

Not to belabour a point and this is an interesting discussion, theoretically you are correct in your assessment, however, from a practical standpoint, that is another matter. I own M22's which, at one point, I used in a L/R configuration in conjunction with Subs(I have FOUR in my A/V system). The problem I found, even setting the crossover to 80HZ, at relatively higher volumes(movies or music), the M22's strained somewhat in the lower midrange. Normal volumes were fine. In an HT capacity it was only after moving to the M60's, then later to the M80's, to my ears anyway, was this problem eliminated.

Over the years I have noticed two interesting things about the subject of bookshelf speakers. The vast majority of manufacturers(including this one), regardless of their reputation and price point, do include small speakers in their lineup, however, they usually only make up a relatively small portion of their total model package. With this in mind and considering speaker design technology at this point is quite mature, I would surmise the manufacturers here are indicating there are technological limitations in sound reproduction compared to what they can do with floor standers. Secondly, if you ever go in to a retailer that sells mid-high end speakers, particularly in this category, they generally don't present them to the customer with the idea of a nice mid-range and adding a complimentary sub. They invariably take the "Bose" approach promoting lots of bass in a small package, especially when they are asking $3-4000 for the pair. I have seen it countless times regardless of the speaker or its price. Not arguing here, just some long time observation.

It is not a new subject, however, considering the vast experience in speaker design Ian and the guys at Axiom have, it would be interesting if they chimed in on this discussion.

Having full range(or close to it) speakers, ie towers, helps to even the bass out, sub or no sub, imo.

you know you wannnntt it!

well if you have two or four subs in the room set up properly how do you even notice the M80's bass.
Given that is that low frequencies are Omni directional.
and if your set up properly your speakers are supose to just ""Disappear" so if they disappear how do you even know.

I wish Axiom would make a high end version on the M22

I'm not sure who this is directed at but I'll chime in..
I love that I can't tell my subs from the rest of my system while watching movies. I can't even tell them apart. I had to check that they were all on, one at a time the other night. It made me grin. Shame I'll have to re tweak here in the near future, damn shame...
That said when listening to music I find it to be too much. I know its the room as I've had the same equipment in my last home so next on the list will be room treatments, even before the PS4.
Regarding which is better, I'd have to say I don't know.
Does it matter? Nope.

brwsaw, moreso to a few posts.

Thing is alot of people say about seemless sound stages and the ability for a great speaker to seem like is dissapears.

Now, I am the same way I really perfer my M80 for music/no subs, however, I like a little more bottom end than the 80's seem to kik out. Really thinking I may trade up to the M100's.
They are awesome in two channel, love them in that when I sit back in my chair, whether I am watch a movie in 2 ch or a hockey game or Big Bang the sound seems to come directly from my TV. if listening to a music video say Rumours or just a CD. Stevie Nicks or who ever, sounds like they standing in the middle of my room in front of me talking/singing. I sould put a drap across the front and I wouldn't even know there were two speakers.

Now, if they were still there in a acoustic sound room with treatments and what nots. and two three or four subs properly positioned. Am I going to really, like really tell the difference, that oh that bottom end at 55hz came from the M80's ?

I am not saying the M22's are better than the M80's with music or movies. However, if I had a bookshelf speaker that rival'd the M80 in the region of 80hz and up then I am pretty well sure I would take them as the front three over a tower.
But, Axiom does not make a top end bookshelf that compares to the M80's.

troyd:

The M22 is already a "high-end" bookshelf speaker -- at a bargain price. The different versions over the years -- v1, v2, v3-- represent small refinements in design and slightly greater linearity (smoothness in frequency response). In my rounds of listening tests at audio shows, I've come across bookshelf speakers I've liked, then been flabbergasted to learn the price. The most recent was a pair of stand-mounted bookshelf designs from a Scandinavian manufacturer that also builds drivers. At the time I auditioned them, I thought to myself, "hmmm, very nice, quite similar in neutrality to the M22 or the M3". I wandered over to the rep in the listening room and inquired about the retail price -- $5,000 per pair!!!

If you placed these speakers in a sighted comparison A/B test with the M22s, where listeners knew the brand and price of each, most listeners would pick the $5,000 pair because of the psychological bias. This has been demonstrated for decades in Dr. Floyd Toole's research at the NRC, and later at Harman in California. (I was part of the listening panel for many years of the NRC tests.) If you then make the test double-blind, listeners with normal hearing will agree on the best-sounding speaker, regardless of price and design.

Manufacturers of overpriced bookshelf models will rarely agree to submit their speakers to well-controlled double-blind tests, as they know full-well that their models may well be equaled or bested by excellent smaller bookshelf speakers from makers like Axiom and PSB, which sell for a fraction of the expensive models' price.

Regards,
Alan

I think it really comes back to what do you want?
With respect to disappearing speakers, that's always been the goal (has been achieved), I want to be enveloped int he sound and image. I want to be there, flinching, ducking, tearing up, etc.
Regarding the sub 80hz region, If I had my mains crossed over at 80hz it still wouldn't matter to me.
As it is they sound amazing, when a stripper clip pings, a ruger or 303 British fires it sounds like I'm there.
I doubt very much I'd get the same SQ and the same sense of space/fullness from smaller speakers.
To tell you the truth I don't want to know. I am happy and would expect to be one notch better when I set up my new front sound stage.
All in I'm only out +/- $1200 per tower. You could spend alot more to achieve less.

Bring on the subs!!

In my HT in a medium sized room (2500 cu ft) I have M22v3s - each with its own 10" Velo sub. When I bought this modest setup a couple of years ago, the cost was about $550 per side which is a steal IMHO.

The M22s are not deficient in any way & IMO they really don't need any upgrading. I tried the AVR Xovers at 60 & 80 Hz & if I remember correctly, I settled on 60 Hz. In my HT, we play most movies at -10 Db & easily can play louder but there is no point.

The M22s when combined with decent sub(s) are fine just the way that they are...

TAM

Alan's recommendation was to go with M22's and had I gone with it I know I would have been happy.
I would have liked to do 3-M22's with 3-EP 400's up front but I ended up going with the M80.

Smiles all around here.