Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things M22 Upgrades, now that the m60/80 are

Ian, Alan or Andrew

Now that we have the great M100's and a upgraded version of the M60/80's, are there any plans to make the M22's a upgrade ?

if they can't be whynot create and develop a high end Bookshelf that will rival the M80's or exceed them in the mid high end area ?

Didn't you bring this up in your discussion about floor standing vs. bookshelf? Alan pretty much answered this HERE about an hour after you posted this.

that post was a couple days ago. and ha I missed that post all together. dang

Yeah, Troy; as Alan commented in the other thread, the M22 isn't in need of an "upgrade". In particular the mid-range is handled by the same two 5 1/4" drivers as in the M80, and is superb in quality.

yes, I see that post now, Alan must of been replying same time as I created this post.

anyways. as many have mentioned and even Alan if I can ever find the post.

the M80 are better at handling the mids and highs over the M22's. that's one reason for getting the M80's, other than the bottom end.

All I am saying is why not try to get the M22 to rival the M80 in the mids and highs, And it can be done. And the M22 can be improved. Yes they are a great speaker, I know that.

Case in point, I also had the M&K 750 and I am sorry but, I would blind test them anyday against the M22 and they will come out on top. Not against the M80's though , but I bet if your talking mids and Highs about 80 hz they would rival the M80.

I look forward to Alan's response though I think he pretty much covered this in the other thread. The MK's are 4x the price, hardly an apple to apple comparison. I would hope they sounded better though at double the price I would expect them to sound 4x as good Im not nitpicking here, just voicing an opinion. I wish I could just go audition speakers for a living or even for fun, I hate being so remote. But alas my hearing is shot so everything sounds good to me.
One thing I am sure of is that everyone has their own preference in speakers and what sounds good to them. This is a great time to be alive, what with all the choices we have in just speakers alone.

Richad

Yep.

Now, what about those new subs?

What was the upgrade from V2 to V3 on the M60's? I have the M60's V2 and wonder why they would have needed an upgrade?

I paid $1300 for my MK's hardly 4x's

and as I said two or three posts above you He must of replying same time I created this post two days later.

And as I said in the same post ,Alan has mentioned before, and so have a few others, the M22 does not have the same Mid and High capabilities as the M80's.

Holy crap, all I was saying was now the the M80 and M60s have been improved on why not the M22's

I guess they are just the best damn bookshelf speakers ever made, Eh ?

I do respect what Alan said and says, I am not saying to make a $4000 bookshelf. I am not saying others are not over priced. But , if the M80 were such a great speaker too why did they bother to look at improving them ?

Hell, if companies stopped looking for ways to improve there products, them they soon disappear and get left behind

Sorry, forgot once you make a comment and get a reply your spose to eccept it and shutup and move on. So I will

PS and if you ready a bit of the other post, I said why not make and develop a bookshelf speaker the is equivalent in the midrange and highend as the M80 and even if it cost $1500. still less than half the $4000

pretty sure it was the driver was and cross over. But, hey
obviously according to some here, they are now at the best and won't need to upgrade anymore.

Troy , there is no need to get defensive, no ones attacking just voicing an opinion. Hell I have never even heard an M22 and I probly couldn't hear the difference you talk about anyway cause im goin deaf. As for the price of the MK , its what came up on a quick search. I would think if axiom built a 3 way that retailed for 1100.00/pr there would be some improvements all around. I will be the first to say that Axiom is not the be all end all in speakers , just decent speakers for the money.



I see car makers doin this all the time. Make a model for a certain price range/demographic then keep improving it, making it bigger, and adding options to the point they have to create a new compact model. Axiom would have to increase the price if they make changes or improvements then it becomes outside of their targeted demographic/price point that they want to appeal to. Axiom has to market their product the way they see fit and if they don't have what people want their are plenty of choices around.

Richard

NO the M22 stay a 2way speaker. The MK750/950 are two way speakers.

I am not saying they are not a great speaker and at a great price.
just that they have made improvements in all the towers.
I have heard about how the M80's rival over the M22 in the mids and highs.
Whaynot try to, never mind try to I know they can improve the m22. I don't think even at a $1000 they would be over priced. If of course the quality is there and sound performance. I want a M22 that is comparable to the M80, from 80hz - 20,000. I want to her they have a bookshelf that in the mid to high is just as good as the M80

I don't think I've seen anyone say that the M80s are better than the M22s on mids and highs, but perhaps I just missed it. In fact, when I've heard the M22s vs the towers, they've been just as good or better on the mids and highs (even the on wall M22s vs the M80s!). I'll admit I haven't directly compared them in several years, and I don't have my M22s on hand to compare with my M80s.

What's important to note is that the M80HPs are a 6.5" woofer swap, along with die cast baskets on the mids--and that's it. The die cast mid baskets are available on the M22s, so in essence you can get an upgraded M22.

Well I guess time will tell. Perhaps they will listen. I see you have M80;s now , are you planning to down size?

Richard

What Ken said regarding this. I don't recall M80s getting the nod in these areas.

Have you considered Bryston's Mini T bookshelf speakers?

I saw a set of Mini T's on canuck audiomart going for 1900 brand new. Retail is 2600. Canuck Audo

I don't remember anybody credible ever saying that the M80's produced "better" highs and midrange than the M22. Can you cite examples?

There is a post here somewhere from Ian or Alan or Andrew that state the die case has no advantage what so ever on sound quality.

I will find the post where a few and I am 90% sure it was Alan that commented that the M80's are better in the mid 's.

Heck no, I love my M80's however I am trying to decide right now if an upgrade to the M100's is warranted. be an extra $1100, So not sure I will get an extra $1000 worth of sound quality. Not many are posting if they are that much better.

No, I am thinking either keeping the M80/100 up in my living room or setting up a dual system in the movie room. The M80/100 will be sub less and for music/music video. And the bookshelf setup for home theatre.

I live music with the towers and no sub. I like the sound stage and bottom end coming from the stage where it is spose to. I don't care for over exaggerated bass in music either.

However, after finding out the M22 are at there best, I thinking now I am going back to the MK speakers or the new K Kreisel.

I love my Axiom and brag the shit out of them specially to my brother who thinks the Definate Tech he got at Future shop is better than the M80's.
And yes, sorry Alan et all, but I have/had bother the MK750 and the M22, and the MK are $750 ec and the sound stage, detail, clarity are just that much better ... for me.

At $4000 nope

I am going to search and I will find you more than one also.

Just need a bit of time

Decisions Decisions Decisions >> This hobby is too damn addictive. Need the electronics version of AA. Audioholics Anonymous

As an aside, for your brother his DefTechs may sound better to him. My buddy has Mission speakers and he loves them to death , they sound ok but not my favorite but that's ok, he is happy and that's what counts.

I wonder how the MK's would stack up against the Model T's. I did provide a link for a set at 1900.00 that's a good savings imho.

If Axiom built a bookshelf for 1500 I wonder what they would sound like. That's almost as much as the M80's you love. Perhaps a bookshelf with 2 tweeters and 2mids and a woof.

Well, I don't know they developed a better woofer and crossover for the M60/80's

Currently the M33 have two 5.25 maybe play with the speaker cabinat a bit, create a 5.75 or 6" driver and do some work on the crossover.

Maybe not so much as to allow the speaker to go lower, but maybe give it a more solid bass.
Yeh, it would be curious to hear those Mini's

be nice to compare those s to the M22. But, then I guess the M22 are already as good. As as mentioned before ...

[quote=Socketman]Decisions Decisions Decisions >> This hobby is too damn addictive. Need the electronics version of AA. Audioholics Anonymous


Axiom Anonymous..;)

that would work

There are plenty of 'Me Too' speakers out there. Its all about marketing and all manufacturers try to differentiate themselves from the competition. That's why all cars are different, if I don't like what Toyota has then I buy from the car company that has what I want. As far as speakers go, continuity is only necessary for the front 3. I am not trying to argue with you here, since I made some noise myself about them producing a conventional 3 way and since its their business I chose to build my own using their drivers.

troy:

I have 2 separate systems comprised of M2s (music only) & M22s (HT). Each of the 'M' speakers have their own sub (2 per system) that are positioned with each sat.

Rest assured: 'the sound stage and bottom end is coming from the stage where it is spose to'. As for exaggerated bass, I agree wholeheartedly; however, it is just so easy to dial in the bass level where you want it.

During my auditioning odyssey, I quickly came to the realization that my small sats + subs out performed any affordable towers of various brands (especially in bass response) that I auditioned. The sat + sub form factor works brilliantly for me...

TAM

I searched for like an hr last night then at 1 am I had to crash. Had to get up third day in a row at 6 to take my daughter to her Provincial Soccer sessions.

Then on our 1.5 hr drive I was thinking, and got to thinking about another post I made a yr or two ago. In that why do people buy towers if they set the receivers to small.

and now I will find them.

Yes, that's why. I was thinking to separate systems. Everyone goes on about low frequencies are Omni directional and just there, like all around. That's ok for movies, but if I am watching a music video or listening to music I don't want the subs on. A) because it over exaggerates plus lower frequencies come from the front, that's where the band is, heck the bass player is not behind me or the kick drum isn't in a different area. So , having towers with go bass and the way I like it. Coming from where I think the band is.

and it was in that post that I said well whynot save the extra money and get a bookshelf, if your just going to waste the bottom end away and not use it.
Alan and I think it was sirquack and or some one else said ,that because the mids and such are better produced by the M80's.

Many posts over at some other forums by a couple of their resident 'experts' are of the view that if you are using towers with subs in a HT setup where the AVR sets the towers to 'Small', then the whole lower end of the towers (<80 Hz) isn't being used & thus is a waste. I kinda agree with that premise & that is why I've gone with sats + subs.

Furthermore, as I understand it, a HT AVR combines the LFE into 1 channel for movie soundtracks & probably for live music concerts. My M2 + EP-400 audio only system is a true Stereo (2 channel - not 2.1 nor 2.2) only. On certain SACDs & CDs I can definitely hear bass notes coming out of one channel or the other as they should.

I don't know why the M80 would sound better than a M22 in the mid to high range. If it does, then the difference would be subtle at best & of course be a completely subjective opinion of the particular listener...

TAM

Ok, Ok I think I finally am getting it. Other than being able to position the book shelfs better.

I was thinking of that Alan post and he said the M80's produce better in the mids.

then, I got to thinking, however I still think it is a waste of speaker. But, My Anthem MRX710, when it calibrates the system I have two selections in the software program. I can calibrate it for movies and all 7 speakers and subs. And it will save the settings, then I can also select for Music and it re-calculates for music and from 2 speakers left and right to 2.1 and 7.1 settings whatever you choose and saves this as music.
there is where I can set the mains to small for movies and I will get the better mids to highs.

when watching a movie I use my PS3 and the settings automatically go to 7.1 and small with subs and the calibration that was done for that setting.
then I have a second blue ray player for music and I set the settings on the second to Music and it will auto switch to the 2 speaker and full range.

Troyd,

I have never stated that the M80s produce better mids and highs than the M80s. I have said that the M80s have a bit more "body" or fullness, in the upper bass, than the M22s.

In my own installation, with M22s and M80s (both are V2 versions, not V3s) on an instantaneous switcher, with an EP500 that can operate with either pair, the speakers are virtually indistinguishable when the M22s are operated within their limits, which means not at deafingly loud "party" levels.

Bookshelf speakers are not intended to play at extremely loud levels in very large rooms; that's where the multiple drivers of the M80 come into their own. The M80s can play very cleanly at extremely loud levels in large rooms and lots of enthusiasts, including Axiom's president, Ian, love those levels.

In my average-size apt. living room, about 2100 cu. ft., the M22s with the EP500 subwoofer can play as loud as I ever require, and do so without audible distortion.

As to setting M80s to "Small", you are not "wasting" the bass capability of the M80s. Deep bass response doesn't just fall off a cliff as the frequencies get lower. It gradually diminishes, so setting the M80s to Small, will continue to let the M80s woofers to contribute, but as the frequencies get lower, the subwoofer takes over and extends the deep bass to lower frequencies. So the M80s woofers don't have to "work" as hard as they otherwise would without a subwoofer.

To answer previous comments about v2 and v3 upgrades, those occurred on all the Axiom speakers. In each case, it was a better tweeter, with wider dispersion and better power handling, that replaced the tweeter in the previous versions. Also, Ian routinely tweaks the crossover(s) in each speaker when the newer tweeter is implemented. So the frequency response through the midrange is adjusted for better smoothness or linearity.

In tests I did at Axiom (not at home), the newer tweeter and adjusted frequency response in upgraded versions of the M80, M60 and M22, resulted in smoother overall response through the midrange and what seemed to be improved spatial presentation.
In the case of the M60, it turned what I had previously viewed to be a "good" speaker into a great speaker, not quite up to the M80s, but awfully close. I hadn't much liked the first M80ti a dozen yeas ago, nor was I all that fond of the first M60, which I found "edgy" on some brass instruments and strings.

To my ears, even the earliest version of the M22s were excellent, and later versions improved on the "ti" M22s.

Even before the M80s' "ti" designation was dropped, Ian had already greatly improved its midrange response, removing the little glitches that had bothered me when I first joined Axiom.

Regards,
Alan

Oops, that first sentence should read ". . .produce better mids and highs than the M22s" (not than the M80s).

Alan

and I should have put " the M80's Handle the mids, Better " not produce.
But, you have explained.
I am still searching because I know a few have mentioned this before, Sorry thought it was you.
But, there were a few who replied that the M80's were.

Anyways, I think I am going to maybe stick with the M80 for both and upgrade the Anthem MRX, I could use the excess money now to go to the M100's

I have my quote for the Bryston Mini T and Mini Centre .......

$2500 for the Mini T and $2000 for the centre, like that's going to happen ...NOT

then they said I can use 4 Mini Ts as rears and back surrounds.

I know you guys probably hate it when I chime in on this, but there was an improvement in upper base response when I added the VP160 into my M22 / EP350 / QS8 mix. Using the Police, Certifiable where you watch Sting play bass, there is a definite boost in the upper bass response with the VP160. I could see him playing the upper bass, but not hearing it before I added the VP160.

(Oh noooo. That can't happen because I've never experienced it.)

I can completely believe that Cat. As Alan said, even if you crossover an M80 at 80hz the woofers are still contributing lower mid-bass since a crossover is a gradual attenuation of the signal not a brick wall. Many reviewers will address this by using a higher 120hz crossover to try covering this hole with bookshelf speakers, at the expense of directionality of the subwoofer. Bookshelfs can make a nice front stage, but a full range speaker imho is still better.

richard

AND - if you're talking about addition of a center channel speaker, there are multiple settings related to either the receiver or the subwoofer that would explain a different experience.

As I've stated before, my Audyssey repeatedly sees my M22s as 40 Hz in my HT room. Looking at the official FR Charts, that surprised me.

Following the conventional wisdom here, I manually set them at 60 or 80 Hz & I believe that I've settled on 60 Hz at the moment. Works for me & I don't feel like I experience any deficits that make me searching for more.

I too would like a VP160 but it just won't fit into my system - too large. Then again, maybe with the way that my room reacts, perhaps the 160 might prove to be too bass heavy. I don't like chesty sounding male voices...

TAM

But many males like to talk about chests.

Oh geez, Audyssey sees my VP100v1 as a 40Hz speaker. The thing's not right in the head. Or CPU, or whatever.

Interesting. It sees my VP100 V3 as 80 Hz as it should...

TAM

I think common sense should tell pretty much anyone with a bit of audio knowledge that a 5 inch speaker is not going to deliver much output in the 80hz range regardless of what audyssey says. It may play the note but it wont be of much value. Instrument Range chart

Audyssey is so over hyped its ridiculous. Its like putting a band aid on a Colombian neck tie.

I know that Audyssey is not a perfect tool, but it does provide some semblance of room EQ that was never available before. We had to live with what the room gave us. My unit seems to smooth out my room response in a pleasing way.

When I first ran it, it quickly discerned that my QS4s were out of phase. This condition probably would not have been easily detectable by ear as the surrounds are in use for only fleeting moments during movies. Similarly, it found that my subs' levels were waaaaay too high so I lowered them progressively to a more reasonable & correctable level - about half of where I had them set initially.

As for what it finds in my room: M22s - 40 Hz; VP100 - 80 Hz; & QS4s - 100 Hz. I believe that this is more or less accurate; however, it would not have much credibility if only 1 run in 1 position was used, but 6 (or more) averages the data pretty well I would think.

I kinda like it but I know others don't...

TAM

Tam not trying to be confrontational here just sharing personal experience.Unfortunately one of the biggest mistakes Audyssey makes is phase. It said I had speakers out of phase I would reverse the leads and then it would say a different speaker was out of phase. I checked my speakers with a 9 volt battery and tested all wiring with an ohm meter and despite audysseys complaints everything was as it should be. From what I have read this is a common mistake made by audyssey because of room reflections. I have a Denon 3311 and it has Audyssey xt32, I also have a Yamaha with Ypao and like what the Yamaha does for correction better. Some rooms benefit from correction more than others. The room I have right now doesn't seem to require much correction as it doesn't seem to sound a great deal different with it on or off. I do use it so I can use dsx for front wides. As far as it setting a small driver for 40hz is for lack of a better word , ridiculous . A 5.25 drive is just not capable of that kind of excursion. I agree that Audyssey is great for us people who don't want to or cant spend the time to address room response issues with treatments.
I am personally too lazy to bother. I bought all the electronics necessary to analyze my room with REW but its just too involved , so audyssey it is Maybe its just my bad hearing.

Richard

My 'out of phase' surrounds were definitely out of phase with the rest of the system - not between the 2 of them. I had stupidly wired both of them backwards using the Axiom wall brackets. I reversed the wires & all is OK now.

Perhaps 4 X 5.5" drivers can go lower than advertised in my room especially because they operate in a 12' wide X 3' deep alcove.

FWIW, I found this at AVS Audyssey thread explaining what is supposed to happen if the calibration is going correctly:

*Audyssey has simply 'listened' during the measuring phase and reported the -3dB point of the frequency response to your AVR. What this means is this: when Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the frequency response of your speaker and find where it starts to roll off (i.e. become 'less loud'). When Audyssey detects the point at which the frequency response is down by 3dB ('the -3dB point' or 'F3') it stops trying to correct for the in-room response. So if, for example, your speaker is -3dB down at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz. Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower frequencies beyond the capabilities of your speaker and damaging it. (Advanced users may wish to read the Technical Note below).

It is then the responsibility of the AVR manufacturer to decide what to do with that information. In some cases, if the -3dB point is, say, 40Hz, the AVR will set the speakers to Large. In other cases, the same situation will result in the speakers being set to Small with a 40Hz Crossover set in the AVR menus. In addition, Audyssey takes into account the placement of the speakers in the room and the room characteristics itself when evaluating the -3dB point. So if your speakers are in a corner, for example, they will deliver more perceived bass than if they are out in the open because the room reinforces the bass. All of this will influence the Crossover that is actually set.*

TAM

I was a huge Denon fan, still am, but since I bought that Anthem MRX500 and the ARC Software that comes with it, I love it.
Specially now with the newer ARC.1m
PLus I can request two seperate measurements. One for HT with up to the 7.1 ch and a music setting with 2.1 or just 2ch and save both.

then I can configure it to use whichever one I want. So if I have two Blu ray players one I set up for movies and the other for music.

Also, I been playing with these subs and now have one front and the other rear. and I changed all my settings on the subs to 60 hz. nothing worse than a sub next to you speaking

I'm fortunate to have 3 separate quality systems - 1 HT & 2 Audio Only.

I set up the HT on Audyssey for movies & then leave it alone. The only music that I play on it is live concert DVD/BDs that generally do not come across as pristine as studio recordings; however, it sounds just fine with the yahoos in the crowd coming across too loud & clear in the sound field behind & around me.

My 2 Audio Only systems have no capability of automatic EQ so I take what the room gives me.

Getting back to the original premise of this thread about upgrading the twin drivers in the M22, if Axiom produced HP versions & new cross overs, I wouldn't bother 'upgrading' because I find that the present M22s do the job just fine when paired with subs. If subs weren't involved, it might be a different story....

TAM

I don't know they designed a better woofer and cross-over for the M60/80's.