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M60's on a raised platform?
#402124 03/24/14 03:12 PM
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BobG Offline OP
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Because of the layout of my room and the furniture, my M60's have to sit behind the front corner of a sofa and chair such that the woofers basically fire directly into the side of the sofa and chair. I am contemplating building 12-15 inch platforms to sit them on so that they will fire over the furniture.

Your thoughts, pro or con?

Last edited by BobG; 03/24/14 03:12 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #402137 03/24/14 05:55 PM
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Shouldn't be a problem.
Some people preach that tweeters should be at your normal listening, ear height but I've never been able to hear a difference in experiments of sitting down, standing up, repeat.... so I don't think it is crucial. Absolutely better than having the sound blocked by furniture.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
Murph #402140 03/24/14 06:30 PM
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Some people preach that tweeters should be at your normal listening, ear height

I have heard that too, but with the 12" stand the tweeters would be no higher than in an M100. so I was thinking it would be ok. Maybe I will just try some temporary stands before I build the bettter ones.

Last edited by BobG; 03/24/14 06:30 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #402144 03/24/14 07:36 PM
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I don't see any problem.

There might be a slight difference in highs from the raised tweeter, and there might be a little less bass out of them as you're increasing the coupling distance from the floor (boundary effect) but that likely will be inaudible or extremely subtle in comparison to some of the sound being blocked as it is now.

Yeah, try them on a couple of milk crates.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #402153 03/25/14 02:09 AM
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Yes, Bob; try temporarily setting them on anything convenient, such as stacks of magazines or newspapers. The M60 crossover is at 200Hz, and the bass frequencies handled by the woofers aren't greatly affected by the furniture in front. You might find that the difference resulting from raising them isn't worth any bother(unless you like the raised sound stage better regardless of whether the "blocking" factor is significant).


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #404340 05/18/14 08:34 PM
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After years of listening to my speakers (M80 HP's at present) placed on cabinets I built for LP storage, I read the Axiomaudio blog on speaker placement. I moved them off the cabinets and put them on the floor. I wish I had done this years ago! Every aspect of the listening experience is so much better. My amp even seems more powerful.

I'm so glad I read that blog and decided to try something different!

Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406489 08/10/14 05:11 PM
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What is current thinking about tilting speakers back rather than raising them off the ground ? I just did that with my M60s -- in my case I was looking for ways to reduce toe-in without losing the stereo image -- and so far I'm very happy with the results.

The speakers were in a slightly unusual setup, in the sense that they were (a) pretty close to the listening position, (b) as far apart as you would want to go (equilateral-triangle-ish), and (c) I'm 6'5 and sit with my ears even higher because the couch is lifted 4" to make it "normal height" for me.

Until now I had had to choose between moderate toe-in (where the frequency response seemed right but imaging was iffy and there was pronounced phasing/comb-filtering when I moved my head from side to side) and significant toe-in (much better imaging but frequency response seem harsh, almost the dreaded "bright").

After tilting the speakers up with pieces of 1x2 laying flat on the ground (so the midrange axis went through ear level rather than navel level) I was able to go back to a very minor toe-in while still maintaining good imaging. The bonus was that the frequency response went back to sounding very neutral, so win-win.

Not quite sure why there is such a difference though. AFAICS my ears are off-axis about as much now as they were before, only now the direction is "mostly off to the side" rather than "mostly up and a bit to the side".

Haven't tried raising the M60s on platforms in their current location and probably won't bother. I did raise them when they were up in the HT, but with an 80 Hz cutoff to the subs I wouldn't expect that to cause many problems.

I don't seem to see any discussion about tilting speakers up these days -- maybe everyone is just buying taller speakers instead wink

EDIT -- seems like the smoother sound let me turn the volume up a bit higher, and that has the predictable "everything sounds better" result. Wonder if that might be a factor in eggman's experience re: making bass sound better & amp seem more powerful ?

Last edited by bridgman; 08/10/14 05:55 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406491 08/10/14 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: bridgman
I don't seem to see any discussion about tilting speakers up these days -- maybe everyone is just buying taller speakers instead wink

In my case, John, I gained the same listening experiences by simply being short.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406492 08/10/14 06:23 PM
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Hmm, that's interesting -- while walking back and forth a couple of times between computer and living room I noticed the speakers sounded kinda harsh when I was standing in front of them but sounded much smoother when I was sitting in a normal listening position.

First thought was that it was not an "off axis" thing but just a consequence of reflections from windows or walls -- when I'm standing my ears are higher so the first reflection point treatments are no longer effective -- but the difference in sound is sufficiently similar to what I experienced before tilting the speakers back that I remain a bit suspicious.

Anyways, when set up "correctly" they sound awesome, so maybe I'll stop thinking about it for now and look into enjoying our first day of summer instead.

Last edited by bridgman; 08/10/14 06:28 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
MarkSJohnson #406493 08/10/14 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
In my case, John, I gained the same listening experiences by simply being short.

... or "optimized for audio" laugh

Last edited by bridgman; 08/10/14 06:27 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406532 08/12/14 05:45 PM
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I have 3 M22's above the TV, and tried pointing them down to the listening position, but sound was too harsh, so I left them pointed straight out, even though way above my normal listening position. I also have 2 M22's and a VP160 mounted below the TV. VP160 aimed slightly up, with M22's straight out. Sounds fine this way.

Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406559 08/14/14 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: bridgman
Hmm, that's interesting -- while walking back and forth a couple of times between computer and living room I noticed the speakers sounded kinda harsh when I was standing in front of them but sounded much smoother when I was sitting in a normal listening position.

OK this is going to be embarrassing...

As you know I've been working on the room acoustics a bit, and I had improved things to the point where I felt the weakest link in the system was now lack of amplifier power.

There was a bit of an "edge" to the sound when playing at higher volumes that I didn't remember hearing on the system I had back in the good old days (with a big-ass Marantz power amp) -- but I wasn't sure whether to blame lack of amplifier power, abused ears, abused tweeters (nothing like port abuse, don't even start) or something else. The off-axis harshness I noticed when walking around the speakers only added to the confusion.

Didn't feel like spending a lot of $$ on an amp until I knew it would make a difference, so I picked up a used Adcom GFA-555 II tonight and hooked it up. Hard to find the right words but I could finally turn the volume up as loud as I would ever want for normal listening without the system starting to sound strained (I always backed off at that point). So far so good.

The intermittent "edge" on the sound still persisted, even at the same volume levels as before, so I knew the amp wasn't the problem. That left tweeters or ears, and I knew that replacing ears would hurt, so conclusion was "hey now I have an excuse to buy a couple of those nice v4 tweeters". Obvious first step was to make sure that the new tweeters were compatible with the crossover in whatever version of M60 I had (thought it was v2 but wasn't 100% sure) so I grabbed a flashlight and looked at the back of the speakers. Music was still playing.

So I bend down and peer behind the right speaker and first thing I notice is a buzz coming from somewhere around the speaker terminals. Turns out my speakers are M60ti's, which have two pairs of terminals joined by metal strips in order to allow bi-wiring or bi-amping. The nuts on the lower binding posts (where the banana jacks were plugged in) were tight, but the nuts on the upper binding posts were loose. Bzzz bzzz.

Tightened up all the nuts (they were loose on the left speaker as well) and holy ^$%&^% the "edge" on the sound went away, even when walking past the speaker. The sound was harsh off axis because the buzz from the back of the speaker wasn't being blocked by the speaker cabinet.

D'oh !!

Last edited by bridgman; 08/14/14 05:13 AM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406561 08/14/14 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: bridgman
[quote=bridgman] but the nuts on the upper binding posts were loose. Bzzz bzzz.

I can't TELL YOU how many times i've heard how loose nuts caused an issue.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
chesseroo #406562 08/14/14 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: bridgman
[quote=bridgman] but the nuts on the upper binding posts were loose. Bzzz bzzz.

I can't TELL YOU how many times i've heard how loose nuts caused an issue.

JP can though.
He deals with nuts all the time.
I bet he has a cocktail solution for that too!!


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406563 08/14/14 04:35 AM
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There are no words to describe how stupid I felt when I found the binding post nuts were loose. I must have read 20 warnings about making sure the binding post nuts were tight so woofers & midrange/tweeters would both be solidly connected to the speaker cable.

EDIT 1 - JP makes good cocktails ? Road trip !!

EDIT 2 - oh yeah, drug company reps. Never mind.

Last edited by bridgman; 08/14/14 04:48 AM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406565 08/14/14 04:41 AM
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Yes, just wait until JohnK logs on.
He could easily cut and paste his top 5 usual tips on why speakers sound "off".
I'm sure that checking the binding posts is in there.

Interestingly, having had my M60Ti for probably 10 years now and at least one or two moves (house to house, room to room), i've never had that issue, but i still use the cap in the tweeter line to reduce the high end output. I would love to hear the latest V4 vs. the Ti to see if it is worth my while to consider the changes.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406570 08/14/14 05:38 AM
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Yeah, John; another reason to avoid if possible the silliness of the dual "bi wired" binding posts.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406575 08/14/14 09:44 AM
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OK, so I have a new problem. I'm actually happy with my system and there isn't anything I particularly want to change. So what the heck am I supposed to do now ?

EDIT - I guess I could load all the CDs I bought a couple of years ago from (pretty sure it was JohnK's) list of great recordings and see how they sound.

Last edited by bridgman; 08/14/14 09:46 AM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406576 08/14/14 10:05 AM
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No reason to be embarrassed, John. Anyone who has done this long enough has a story about missing a setting, connection, or something else that might have been obvious under different circumstances.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406588 08/15/14 06:07 AM
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Thanks Mark. I'm still embarrassed though...

BTW this is getting terribly off topic but I do have to say that the bigger amp really made a difference in my enjoyment of the system. The speakers are in a large room (~4200 ft^2 for the immediate listening area) and that space opens directly into at least another 5000 ft^2. The house is mostly one big open area with bedrooms tacked on the side and back -- the floorplan has been uncharitably described as "a double-wide with a bump-out".

With the receiver's built-in amp I was playing mostly music that sounded good at low volumes, but now everything is fair game again. When playing as loud as I would want for comfortable listening, maybe 8-9 feet from the fronts of the speakers, the distortion lights *just* start to flicker dimly on the most demanding content. On this amp that apparently happens around 260W into 8 ohms.

When I had the M60s in a smaller room the power requirements seemed to be quite a bit lower and the HK 3270 seemed a lot closer to providing enough power for normal listening, although I still had to limit the volume a bit. I guess I have "just enough power" for the new listening area now, which is kinda nice and highly recommended.

Last edited by bridgman; 08/15/14 06:18 AM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406589 08/15/14 10:43 AM
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4200 sq feet? That's 3x bigger than my house. You sure about those numbers? wink


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406590 08/15/14 01:33 PM
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Cubic feet is ft^2, right ?

D'oh !!


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406593 08/15/14 05:22 PM
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Since I can no longer edit the post and there's a page break between Ken's bug report and my original post I guess I'll put a fixed copy here.

Originally Posted By: bridgman
BTW this is getting terribly off topic but I do have to say that the bigger amp really made a difference in my enjoyment of the system. The speakers are in a large room (~4200 ft^3 for the immediate listening area) and that space opens directly into at least another 5000 ft^3.

BTW is there a well-understood technical term for the point at which a power amp starts clipping (ie continuous power + headroom) ? There used to be a lot of talk about "peak power" and I *think* that meant "power at clipping" but IIRC there were a few different potential interpretations depending on whether or not you factored in rail voltage droop and how hard the amp had been working before the peak came along.

Reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering how much of the improvement I would have seen with a high quality ~100W power amp. It's probably fair to assume that such an amp would have more relative headroom than the amp in my receiver so the effective power increase would be more than the 65W-to-100W change would suggest, but I'm not sure -- and am trying to talk myself out of picking up a used 100W amp to test with.

I don't really have time to get into amp-swapping at this point, and Schmidt's law still applies ("if you mess with a thing long enough it'll break").

That info seems like something that would be useful for people thinking about upgrading but not sure if it's practical to spec that way or if the dependency on "shape of the signal" is too much to work around. I guess some kind of standard test waveform would be needed and that's 20 years lost in a standards committee right there.

Last edited by bridgman; 08/15/14 05:39 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406594 08/15/14 06:57 PM
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I'm in love with my Pioneer SC-67 with 140 watts X 9 channels. It was a little on the pricy side, but I've never hit a volume level yet that has hurt my ears. I don't have a need for that high of a volume, but the headroom is very high. Makes for good movie watching.

Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406603 08/16/14 02:38 AM
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John, there really isn't a well-accepted term for the beginning of amplifier clipping. To be meaningful it would have to involve an audible level of distortion, not simply the beginning of the flattening of the top of the sine wave when viewed on an oscilloscope. Various distortion levels have been used in published lab tests to represent "clipping". At one extreme the previous Sound & Vision tests used a 0.3% THD level for their clipping power level, although acknowledging that this was well below actual audibility on music. More commonly(e.g. Home Theater Magazine) a 1.0% level has been used to represent the threshold, although this still wouldn't be audible on much music.

So, it isn't really necessary to consider a term such as "headroom" in determining the maximum audibly clean output available. If well-run lab tests on a particular unit are available, an effective clipping level might be considered to be the point at which distortion exceeded 1.0%.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
BobG #406609 08/16/14 05:27 PM
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Thanks JohnK. I think you're saying that the only really useful measurement of "what an amp can do for you" is a distortion vs power graph - am I understanding you correctly ?

I guess what I'm wondering about is that even such a graph could deliver different results depending on how long the input signal lasted at each power level. It seems to me that there are sorta-kinda three levels that matter :

1. Continuous power -- no clipping, no overheating, no overloading devices (do I have that right ?)

2. Power at "clipping" (with the caveats you mentioned) where the test signal is long enough to drag down the power supply rails but not long enough to overheat

3. Same as #2 but where the test signal is short enough that the main power supply caps don't discharge much and so rail voltage stays high

It seems to me that "headroom" as people talk about it is probably closer to #3 than to #2, but still somewhere in between since the amp is already being driven at a lower average level which may be enough to start dragging down the rail voltages anyways.

I imagine that on some (most/all ?) powerful amps the power supply is sufficiently beefy that rail voltage drop & power supply ripple don't get too bad even at full rated power, but I'm also trying to figure out what a suitable "headroom or whatever we want to call it" rating for typical amps found in average receivers might look like.

Put differently, in big-ass amps everyone talks about headroom "over and above" the continuous power rating while for typical receivers & integrated amps you don't hear those comments (although that could obviously be a function of target audience), so being me I'm obviously trying to figure out if there really is a difference (I think there is) and if so to quantify that difference.

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Last edited by bridgman; 08/16/14 06:00 PM.

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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
bridgman #406621 08/17/14 01:57 AM
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John, yes that is pretty much my view of the matter after studying over the years the significance(or non)of more complex factors. Headroom is the power available above the typical 1 watt(not the maximum continuous rating)used at a comfortably loud level. Brief peaks on highly dynamic material such as some classical recordings can be as much as 20dB above the average level, which would therefore require in the neighborhood of 100 watts. A receiver amp which can supply this(at the more meaningful 1% THD level)is entirely sufficient in headroom for this use.

As you indicate, there can be higher power outputs stated for extremely brief periods of time. This was embodied in the previous IHF Dynamic Power rating, which was largely continued in the present EIA/CEA 490-A voluntary standards (see section 5.1 et seq). Yamaha briefly discusses this in a simplified manner here . The amp is tested with a 20 millisecond burst followed by a 480 millisecond period down 20dB at the continuous level and then repeated. 20 milliseconds is viewed generally(not totally accepted)as the time involved in music's transient peaks. The power available for the burst(at 1% THD or clipping observed on an oscilloscope)is the rated dynamic power and typically may be on the order of 20% higher than continuous power. For example, my least powerful receiver has a 75 watt continuous rating and a 95 watt dynamic power rating. Not all manufacturers specify a dynamic rating, but it's a valid measurement which can be given a small amount of consideration and may be the closest thing to the number that you're asking about.


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Re: M60's on a raised platform?
JohnK #406624 08/17/14 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: JohnK
Headroom is the power available above the typical 1 watt (not the maximum continuous rating) used at a comfortably loud level.

That one sentence answers a lot of questions wink

Thanks !


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