So, the moving truck came and went today and were almost moved across country. Our new place has a completely unfinished basement that I have already made rough plans for. They are not exact dimensions but a good scale based on the dimensions from our homes main floor dimensions. The space is roughly 15'6" x23'.
There will be a 112" screen about 14' from the viewing locations. The AT screen wall is 4' into the room.
If anyone has any feedback on how the space sould be lit, or a better idea for an A/V rack workaround I'd be greatful. So far I am thinking a soffit with rope accent with sconces at the midpoint of the top of each acoustic panel. The panel config and types are still tbd.
There will be cabinets on the backside of the left wall that will act as a cheater av cupboard, beer fridge, blankets etc.
Nice looking dedicated Home Theater space i'm envious. May I ask slightly off topic what equipment your gonna be using in that gem? Or link me to another post if you've already talked about this...
Admittedly, I am going a little OCD with the planning. I went through so many iterations in my last space that I lost track. Learned a lot from it and now I'm ready to create a proper space for the fam that looks a little less mad scientist......
I know many people have gone with the less expensive pot lights, but we opted for on wall sconces in our room. We had a difficult spot for lighting on an angled wall but a friend who was a lighting wholesalesman found us something that worked perfect. All are dimmable of course.
See old photos here:
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Your lights are great, i like how you mixed spots with diffuse lighting in the same space. Those spots would look great if i wanted to light the media stand at the rear of the room.
Noted!
On a frustrating note, our sectional was delivered yesterday and wouldn't go down the stairs..... We bought it pre constuction to take advantage of a great sale. Looking for seating now too..... That can come later though.
The room was setup to deliver 7.x surround sound in two directions so yes, some pre-wiring indeed. I never did add in an ethernet line though as i figured wireless options would become available by the time i cared much about providing a net based application in the room.
We still have yet to add the other 2 rear surrounds. I partly stopped b/c i had contemplated adding surrounds in the newer wood veneers but then if i did that, it would start a cascade effect for having to replace the rest of the Axiom system with the same wood veneers. That and the fact i have an older AVR which only does 6.1 at the moment.
The room is slated for some updating but not until we finish reno in the kitchen and focus on a newer family vehicle.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
The on wall sconces are really nice, but I was one of the many that just opted for the cheaper pot lights. With drop ceiling they are super easy to wire and mount too.
UMC-200, XPA-3, XPA-5, iNuke 3000DSP, M22's for LCR, 4 QS8's, 2 Ultimax 15" in DIY 12cuft ported box
One of these days I will sit down when I have some time and write a nice long reply. For lights, I went with small can lights around the soffit (you could do the same along the edge of the ceiling, or even go with ones spread throughout the room). We then added 3 wall sconces (don't get those cheapo "paintable" kind. Spend $10+ more and get something with some metal, or glass, or both.
Biggest thing is getting them on dimmers... Notice, that is plural. Set up at LEAST 2 zones in the theater. In my V3.0, we had can lights throughout the room, but the half closest to the screen was on a different dimmer than the back half where we sat. Then we could eat dinner and see what we were eating, and not have lights on right above the screen (even if they were only at 25% thanks to the dimmer).
In my current space, since the wall sconces are in the back half of the theater, but the small can lights go all along the side and back walls (in the soffits), they are on their own dimmer. Then, if we are eating in the theater, I turn the can lights all the way off, and the wall sconces to about 25% and it works perfect.
Get remote controlled dimmers too. I went with two Lutron IR dimmers. Press the paddle up once and it goes to whatever pre-set lighting level you want, press it twice and it is on at 100%, press it up a third time and it is back to the pre-set dimmer level, press it down and it is off (all with a nice slow fade). On my remote I have 1 preset for eating (it is the default preset on the dimmers themselves. One I set to the sconces slightly on, and on the other dimmer it is at like 1% (as close to off as possible). Then the remote just sends the signal to put both dimmers to their preset, and it is perfect for eating. I have another preset on my remote that goes to the "eating" level, and then does a +2 on both, this is more for having a dim space, but not fully dark for when waiting for the wife and kids to come into the room.
Works great, and allows to good lighting control.
Oh, and we don't eat dinner down there THAT much, but we do use the presets a lot.
EDIT: Put at least 1 CAT6 cable drop into the room. There are some devices that can connect to the internet wirelessly, but if you want to stream video either from the internet or from a media server/computer in the house, you will want/need a wired connection. I know, you may not have plans for that now, but I didn't plan on having a HTPC in my room either when I dropped the CAT6 cables in. One all the way back to my internet connection point in my house. This was just for being able to do firmware updates originally for all of my equipment. I am glad I did, otherwise I would have had a really hard time adding it later so that I can stream my 72GB Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Rings, or the even larger sequels. Even smaller file size movies would choke at even high quality across wireless, and I ended up wanting exact same playback (or better) with my HTPC, so that means no compression at all.
monoprice.com will hook you up with cheap network cable. Buy longer than you need...
Last edited by nickbuol; 04/15/1407:27 PM. Reason: Added CAT6 comments
I have been looking into the lutron maestro IR dimmers. Are these the ones you have? I have a harmony remote I would use them with.
I know sconces are happening for sure, but cant decide on soffit pots or just two overhead lights for cleaning up in the space etc. Pots are cheap and eat up no headroom so that might be an option.
This is the kind of lighting my better half prefers:
I like the idea of having sconces and overheads on seperate dimmers for sure. I would likely put the rope lights on the same dimmer as the sconces. I'd wire it so all neutrals started at the switch box to have flexibility later I guess.
I will likely run cat6 to the a/v rack into a switch and split from there I guess. They are cheap nowadays. I'm planning on a 1 1/4 conduit run to the center of the front wall for feeding speakers behind the screen wall. I'll pull straight to the terminals and bypass wall plates wherever I can. The surrounds may also be piped, havent decided yet. Projector for sure with 1 1/4.
I am using the Harmony One with mine without issues.
Note, I would control the rope light differently. Separate switch/dimmer...
Here is why: When you want the cool effect of the rope light, but super dim, you are still going to have light directly above your screen (even with a soffit, etc). This can either wash out the image or mess with the contrast a lot as you eyes now have another light emitting into your eyes. Dark scenes in movies will either be washed out a little or in contrast to the rope light (even on dim) lose dark detail.
An extra dimmer is cheap in the scheme of things, and really the rope light is best left off anyway for during a movie.
My color changing LED rope light doesn't even go over the screen (it goes down the side soffits and across the back) and I never leave it on for during a movie.
Is there a dip switch or something on the lutron units to give them different IR codes. Ie command individually? 3 gang box sounds like where I'll end up. Sconces, ropes and overheads/pots controlled individually.
The soffit will be "8" shaped to conceal a beam in the center if the room. The front of the soffit will be behind the screen wall when done. I will likely go with a yellow or warm light if I can find some dimmable leds that dont need a transformer for every 20' or so. Maybe incandescent otherwise.
Is there a dip switch or something on the lutron units to give them different IR codes. Ie command individually? 3 gang box sounds like where I'll end up. Sconces, ropes and overheads/pots controlled individually.
The soffit will be "8" shaped to conceal a beam in the center if the room. The front of the soffit will be behind the screen wall when done. I will likely go with a yellow or warm light if I can find some dimmable leds that dont need a transformer for every 20' or so. Maybe incandescent otherwise.
Many thanks btw for your input all. Appreciated!
None of that I know of.. I have two lutron switches because of the 2 pot lights banks.. they are controlled simultaneously from the harmony remote, when I turn on an activity they come all on then go to the fav preset of the lutron switch... one is set on half dim and the other off.. so I belive it would work for the application you are looking for... the only problem I have is to have the lights turn on when I ask the harmony to turn everything off..
Yeah, if your remote send a "full on" signal to one, then they all get it. If you send the "preset" signal, then they all go to their preset (which CAN be set different per switch), but not independently controlled.
I can't remember if it was Lutron or another brand, but someone makes an additional unit that allows you to set up a number of "scenes" and you can connect multiple dimmers to it.
I could stand the overheads on a manual dimmer for entry/exit and general use. 2 lutron units could be used as scene lighting during movies as you have mentioned with preset dim levels. Pretty slick and user friendly.
Also
There will be a smart relay controlling a room exhaust fan off of my AVR trigger, so likely I can program it to open the main overhead lighting when BD input is selected. Makeshift automation, but works.
So, come in room, turn on main light switch.
Hit all on in harmony and sconces and ropes come on with gear.
Select watch movie (BD) and mains lights turn off (relay trigger) and lutrons dim down.
I'd set it up so "play" dims to off and "pause" or "stop" dims to preset.
Turning all off would return the relay to N/C state and main overheads would come back on. Sconces and ropes off.
NOTE: Do yourself a huge favor and have a spot for your remote (with power for charging) close to the light switches!!!
I wish REALLY BADLY that I had done this. Instead, I have to walk to the back of the room by my equipment rack, grab the remote (and now I am standing where I can't hit the "Watch a Movie" button and have everything turn on), then walk to my seat, sit down, point the remote at the screen (to bounce the signal) and turn things on.
Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.
Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.
Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door. A ridiculous idea, i know.
You may have missed my point. I DO hit the light switch, but to turn on the gear in the room, I have to walk to the back of the room, literally the furthest spot away from the door. That is why I would want it need the door/light switch area. HE was saying that he wanted to turn everything on (including the lights) from the remote.
Hey Nick, you ever think of a cool looking frame with velcro and putting a velcro sticker on the back of your remote? I guess that doesnt solve the charging situation though.
I opted for the 650 after I found out a friend had issues with the batts after a year with his harmony one.
Had the remote had a little cubby shelf near the door/light switches, I could grab it and hit the button immediately upon entering the room.
Or you could do something crazy like just turning on the light switch with your finger at the door. A ridiculous idea, i know.
hahahaha good one!
None of you saw my post BEFORE the above quoted posts? Here is what I put....
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
You may have missed my point. I DO hit the light switch, but to turn on the gear in the room, I have to walk to the back of the room, literally the furthest spot away from the door. That is why I would want it need the door/light switch area. HE was saying that he wanted to turn everything on (including the lights) from the remote. wink
Its a great touch to have lighting on a remote. When lighting commands are integrated with gear commands it is really a wowing affect. A cheap way to make an install feel professional.
The units mentioned in this thread can be retrofitted to any exising installation. You just have to watch for 2 wire or 3 wire requirements for install. The lutron units are affordable at $50 or so. Great value I think.
I like the idea of an RF remote, especially for locating gear out of sight. I can look at one down the road when all the other tweaks are exhausted.
A little ingenuity keeps the hobby fresh and fun command recliners interlocked with lighting would really be boss! but not gonna happen in my space.
Here in our place now. Stuff arrived safe and sound. The space will actally be a little smaller than originally thought, but still a healthy 14.5 x 22 x 8 estimated when complete. Have to alter drawings and consult with an engineer to remove a support post. Then relocate a heating oil tank to the garage. Work ahead just to get to the framing stages! The post on the partially demoed wall corner is the make or break. Fingers crossed. Oh well. So far:
Here in our place now. Stuff arrived safe and sound. The space will actally be a little smaller than originally thought, but still a healthy 14.5 x 22 x 8 estimated when complete. Have to alter drawings and consult with an engineer to remove a support post. Then relocate a heating oil tank to the garage. Work ahead just to get to the framing stages! The post on the partially demoed wall corner is the make or break. Fingers crossed. Oh well. So far:
If you bring in a structural engineer they will say "No. You cannot just remove that post." I have heard of people trying to add more to an existing beam to make it beefier, but there are horror stories about that too if not done exactly right. The best recommendation for reducing/eliminating some posts is replacing the beam with a steel one. This is no minor undertaking.
Your best bet is to bring in an expert as you planned, and tell them what you are trying to accomplish. They will give you the best advice on how to make it happy. It probably won't be cheap though. Just saying that now so that your expectations are set.
An engineer will determine how to accomplish this. My preference is to sink an LVL into the floor space to eliminate the protruding beam altogether. We are also facing the likelihood of beefing up the neighboring footing.
We bought this house with the basement space as a requirement. This post would be dead center in the room. Maybe military invisible paint?
Hmmm.... Interesting... How would the LVL beam go up into the floor joists without compromising the structural integrity of the joist system? I've never heard of something like that, and it certainly would have been awesome for some of the basements I've finished in the past.
Wow. I wondered if that is what you were looking into. Those aren't up to code here. I think that it is just a city code though. They are sticklers about a lot of stuff where i live. Here, the floor joists must have a beam *under* them.
I've heard that pretty much everywhere allows you to do this for ceilings in main living areas where there is just an attic above it. For most homes though, that isn't needed since the roof trusses are also the ceiling "joists" anymore.
A lot of work is involved to do go this route. You would need to support each and every floor joist on both sides of where the current beam is, and then you would need to cut out (as precisely as possible) where you want the beam to go up in to. Then put the beam up, attach the hangers, and remove the temporary supports.
If you can somehow live with a beam (or end up having to live with one for code requirements), you could put a metal beam right next to the current beam, get it supported with poles (obviously a lot further apart than your current ones and would need new footings), and then remove the current poles and beam. Would solve the pole issue probably, be less work, and probably less cost that all of the materials and labor to do it the other way.
I moved a 12 foot beam in my current house to accomplish what you are thinking with the joist hangers. I didn't want it right above where my wet bar was supposed to go. I ended up turning my home theater wall into a load bearing wall that was about 3 feet to one side of the beam. I made another temp wall (with studs right under the each floor joist), and then moved my wall beam over 3 feet away from the theater. There is duct work right in that area, so now it just became a part of that framing. Obviously I built up supports for each end, but they ended up inside what were to become walls and thus never be seen.
For the other beam in the basement that ran about 20-25 feet, I just lined up a wall with it to be a part of our office and bathroom.
I love the look you are going for without a visible beam, but unfortunately for you your beam is right in the middle of the basement.
I have no idea if I'll be able to swing it here either. I dont even know what day garbage day is yet so I have to do some homework. Ha! Would be better for feng shui for sure.
My father in law does this stuff for a living and we work well together. Should be alright from that end. We are planning to brick over the windows in the room as well as inject a cranky crack we found in the foundation wall. I've read too many build and tear apart threads.....
Including myself, we are pretty trades oriented and this should be a pretty fun build. Exciting! Its nice when the rest of the family is bringing up the basement plans ahead of me. I'm playing coy so it seems like they are urging it on. So far so good.
Take lots of pictures. Always good to have before and after documentation, plus good for whenever you end up selling the house so that you can show that you fixed the cracks. I fixed a few foundation cracks and made sure that I showed that it was done very well. It looked just like the one that the professionals did before we bought the house. It is actually pretty easy and just adds piece of mind.
Good luck with whatever you do. I didn't mean to come across as a downer, but so many times I see people getting their hopes up on things just to have them not have the skills or understanding to do it right. It sounds like you are going to be just fine once you find out what you can do about those beams.
I like the concept of an RF distant, especially for finding equipment out of vision. I can look at one in the future when all the other modifications are tired.
Ok, so three beam options exist to remove the post.
1. Bolt C channel steel along both sides of the existing beam. Pros- easiest option, cheapest at under 500$ Done in few hours. Cons- beam still keeps its current protrusion into the headroom of the space.
2. 4 2x11 LVLs sandwiched together and sunk into the floor joist. Pros- beam now protrudes only 3" into headroom of space. Cons- more work and higher cost of approx 1000$
3. 8"x8" I Beam sunk into joist space with 2x8 laminated on top to hang floor joist from. Pros- beam protrudes 1.5"' slightly less. Cons- most work and lifting involved (over 400 lbs). Most expensive option at around 1200$ Most work to retrofit into current beam foundation pocket.
All three options allow the removal of the post and are suggested by an engineer as suitable choices. What should I do? What would you pick?
Last edited by Serenity_Now; 05/24/1412:20 AM. Reason: Floor 8", not 10"
I had no idea on the cost until we went through an engineer. Happily surprised.
I guess where most people would encounter thousands of dollars is hiring the entire process out and working in a finished space. Putting it all back together when removing a finished wall can be costly. Luckily its just a concrete hole so far.
Option 1 is out for sure. Deciding between 2 and 3. Option 2 is attractive because it will be easy to relocate the electrical to the bottom of the joist neighboring the LVLs and have a small bulkhead to cover it up.
Plumbing in basement ceiling moved. Still need to have an engineer come to site to see the pre work state and confirm methods in person. LVL sunk into joist space is the goal still. Basement foundation crack still needs to be fixed.
After hurricane arthur gave the island a bit of a kicking, I realized how a UPS would probably be a good Idea.
Winter is coming....
I ended up getting a Double conversion online system that feeds my living room gear, Hifi and soon the HT. It is a 20A unit that seems pretty good so far. Probably overkill, but hey, thats part of the fun and madness of our hobby. A cool feature is it gives a live VA reading on loads connected. No more wondering how much stuff draws when in use.
It is located in the mechanical room and acts as a hub for homeruns I fished into the upstairs walls. I plan to use it in the HT as well for the projector, AVR and Amplifier feeds. Capacity shouldn't be an issue unless all 3 systems are running at the same time. Unlikely.
After the storm the neighbor was cutting up a downed tree with an electrical chainsaw in their yard. The lights in my house would dim every time the machine triggered. Can you say volt sag?!
2-5 second power outages and silly voltage fluctuations are common during storms here I guess.
Thanks to Nick's hard work covering cedia for us I'm going to ask for opinions on running future wires for ceiling mounted direct radiators in the mentioned square pattern.
This would yield 7.2.4 "connections" for the distant future acoording to current prices of processors.
Future proofing is a speculative thing due to the fickle nature of electronics trends. With the prescribed "death" of bluray I keep reading about looming, is Atmos a reality for mainstream consumers? What to do?
Future proofing is a speculative thing due to the fickle nature of electronics trends. With the prescribed "death" of bluray I keep reading about looming, is Atmos a reality for mainstream consumers? What to do?
I can't say i've heard about death of Bluray, unless this is a prelude to the new 4k images and a new form of DVD to hold 4k data. However, being truly realistic, of every single person i know around me, neighbors, friends, hockey teamates, etc. i am one of only TWO people to have a 'high' quality 5.1 home theatre system. I don't know of a single person that owns more than one subwoofer nor do i know of anyone who has a TV larger than 50".
Atmos may be coming but keeping up with the Joneses? For over a decade now we already surpassed the Joneses, the Smiths, the Browns, .... A 5.1 system is still very much the mainstream if not the dream system for most folk. What the electronics can do is advancing fast, but most people can't afford to keep up with, or even enter into the basics of a complete 5.1 home theatre IMO. How much are these new advances even being used? Heck, i still own a 2002 Onkyo and only now am having some thoughts about changing out the 12 year old 50" Toshiba RPTV for a flatscreen and swapping out the AVR.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Can you enjoy HD audio formats over the onkyo? (dolbytrue hd, dts master etc)
If not, definitely time to upgrade. I know what you are saying about the joneses completely. Having moved to PEI, a "good" system here is a HTIB to most.
All my purchases are off island now for this sort of thing. High end audio or reference sound is at best understood here as "it pounds!" from my coworkers.... . This is in regards to their samsung htib, of course. "1800watts!"
Ok, I sound like a snot.
The other day I was asked what kind of soundbar I would recommend to pair with a $2K samsung smart tv someone had. I told them they should be looking into the pioneer designed by Andrew Jones. I think they ended up grabbing a $150 walmart jobber.
Thank god for the internet! Where an audio nerd can find others.
Can you enjoy HD audio formats over the onkyo? (dolbytrue hd, dts master etc)
But why do i need those specific formats? DD 5.1 won't sound any different quality-wise. I don't have a 6.1, 6.2, etc. system so the extra channels that come with those formats are irrelevant, and being more of an audio gearhead than most folks, this proves my point.
A lot of people don't even have a quality 5.1 system to begin with. Most i know that get into the surround sound buy a small HTIB setup and certainly have no plans to get more than that.
At some point i personally do plan to add two rear surround channels and another subwoofer for a 7.2 system, but that is my limit. Until i get to that point, the only limitation i have with my 12 year old Onkyo AVR is it does not have HDMI. However with the recent purchase of an Oppo bluray player which has both HDMI and component video out connections, i can continue to use the Onkyo for awhile longer yet. Although i love the idea of getting a newer, larger flatscreen TV (another topic as to why i'm not atm), i was annoyed that to get a bluray functioning i may almost have need to buy a new TV and a new AVR! So for a $300 bluray player i need to get/replace over $3k in new electronics??!!!
The big killer IMO for new home a/v electronics will come in connection types. They keep coming out with new standards and new connections almost every other year it seems. A tv that could last 15 to 20 years is now almost defunct after 10 because it doesn't have newer connection types and/or a newer unit may not still have older connection types such that anyone replacing a broken DVDp for example, might be faced with having to buy a whole new TV as well. Most consumers aren't happy with being pushed into that narrow choice. It costs alot even at the lower prices at which one can buy a TV today. Replacing electronics at that pace is just stupidity.
Forward thinking; when we bought our TV back in 2002 we at least made sure it had component video in and 1080i resolution capable such that today, we do have a functioning large screen HD tv. Thankfully the brand makers didn't cut component video inputs off at the knees too quickly after HDMI was introduced or that TV would have had to disappear a long time ago.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Are we talking downmixed hd to dd5.1? or DVD audio tracks vs bluray tracks?
Take Sin City, dd5.1 vs DTS on the same DVD disc. Same disc, formats sound different.
Or Tenacious D, or many others. If the tracks on a single disc dont match, how can we reason the HD mix would be the same?
When they are mixed for HD audio and channels, they sound much better.
That's not the first time someone called me crazy. I've really lost track at this stage in life.
This situation is where the term "quality" must be clearly defined and it is hard to do so since the sound mix of one format vs. another can vary even with the same material on the same disc. However, try to remain objective when you evaluate the sound not for what you prefer, but for what you can hear (technical vs. subjective). Are the vocals sibilant on one mix but not another? Is bass heavier on one mix vs the other? Can you hear the raspy strum on guitar strings in both mixes? etc. AND, most importantly, are these artifacts reproduced consistently with other material on other discs in exactly the same way? i.e does a DVD-audio mix always sound more bassy than its DD 5.1 counterpart on 10, 20, 30 different discs? I think you will find that these types of 'quality' differences do not reproduce consistently for one format such that it could be labeled as 'lesser quality'.
Reproduce the sound quality differences then decide if one can be deemed a better quality than another, but don't assume that a 6.1 True HD DD mix somehow is higher quality than a DD 5.1 mix. The technical quality at which these mixes are produced already go beyond that which the human ear can detect from a mechanistic, engineering perspective. We are not dogs or bats. Human hearing capability is much more limited.
All that being said, yes, i absolutely agree that a DD 5.1 mix will sound 'different' from a DVD-audio track on the exact same disc. I've tested this in the past with an A/B switch method and demonstrated this very difference with people who came to audition the Axioms. I have tried 3 different DVD-audio discs with their DD 5.1 tracks on the same discs and reproduced what i perceive as differences in the formats, but both are of equal (and very high) quality.
I preferred the sound of the dvd-audio mix but not because i thought it sounded more clear, or accurate, etc. I chose it because i found the soundstage was more up at the front vs. the DD 5.1 mix of the same material which moved the soundstage more overhead, a bit more immersive (the more "surround sound" type of sound). To me, i described the differences in the mixes as follows: DVD-A sounded like i was sitting in the first couple of rows of a concert. DD 5.1 sounded like i was onstage somewhere in the middle of the band/orchestra.
I've also tested (long ago), DD 5.1 vs DTS on the same disc. This was not an instantaneous A/B test though and offhand i recall thinking that DTS really reduced the SPL for some reason so i ignored using it ever again.
Different does not equate to higher quality. Some people may prefer one mix over another, sure, but that does not define it as a technical quality difference vs.a personal preference likely related to the variation during the sound mix process.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Agreed. I typically prefer the Bluray HD mixes of movie soundtracks when comparing them to their DVD counterparts. I dont know if I would be capable of listening to a DD5.1 track on a bluray when its HD counterpart is there waiting. I would feel dirty.
I believe the newer batmans and new daniel craig bond films on bluray include both the non and HD versions of the soundtrack. I believe oblivion does as well. Anyway, these are good examples of films which would have been mastered for HD sound and likely good candidates for a DD/DTS vs HD counterpart test. I mention these as they are fairly ubiquitous and anyone can run the test for themselves.
Homework assignment for everyone willing.
I predict in every case the HD track is prefered.
I would agree that a DVD could potentially sound even better than its Bluray version technically, but in my experience this has never been the case. I dont think DD5.1 or DTS tracks got the same "love" when the studio sound master folks make the decisions which determine the final experience. This may be less the case now with newer releases, since a DVD soundtrack is likely a lossy version of the HD counterpart, but when back catalog movies are released and remixed for HD sound on Bluray, the differences can be startling. Holy run on sentence.
Btw, a lower SPL between DTS vs DD5.1 tracks could be an artifact of a component misreading or omitting the dynamic range parameters within the soundtrack from what I understand. If one sounded louder than the other, it could also have meant that track had more dynamic compression applied by the processor or during the studio mix.
Chess, you're crazy!!! Well, not really, I just felt like I was missing out.
I know I have a particular concert Bluray home that the HD format is actually way less enjoyable than the DD5.1. Damn it, I can't remember which one it is though. I recall the HD version really brought forward the sibilant aspect of the lead vocals.
From a technical standpoint, the HD version was probably doing it's job and being more accurate. However, the resulting accuracy created something that really bugged me.
In this case, you could have an interesting argument. Is it the responsibility of the producer/mixer to make it as accurate as possible, should they remove unwanted qualities, even if it is less accurate or do you just blame the source (artists/sound gear.)
In short, you are both right but sometimes accuracy does indeed come with a price.
Short answer: DD5.1 is compressed.... DTS-Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are not.
Ok, technically DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD ARE compressed, but they are more like a .zip file. extract the data from that file and you get the full lossless (uncompressed) audio in perfect form. DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed. It literally throws away a lot of data to save space. Now, the problem is that just like some .mp3 files, the level of compression can vary from one source to another.
In the movie sound industry, HD audio is reserved for uncompressed or lossless audio like DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD, and DD5.1 is just considered a sub-par audio track that is missing a lot of information. It is still surround sound, but it is like saying that the DVD that the DD5.1 audio is on is HD when comparing the DVD to a blu-ray which is in HD.
Now, do I really care what you enjoy? Heck no. Play what you want and enjoy it. You are missing out on what you *could* hear, but you seem fine with what you *currently* hear and who am I to spend your money on something that you don't think that you need.
DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed.
Indeed Nick you have described a technical difference between the formats but i was questioning more the subjective term "high definition" sound.
DD 5.1 is not unlike a mp3 at >500 kbps (DVD audio is rated for a similar bitrate although this is only one metric of quality among the formats). I doubt anyone has been able to tell the difference between the compression and non-compressed versions at such a high sampling rate.
Compression does not equate to a loss in audio quality if it can't be distinguished by the human ear anyway. There is another similar discussion at the bluray forums which parallels this one. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159982
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Chess, if you have an oppo you may be able to use the multichannel analog outputs into your avr. You can then use the oppo for HD audio decoding and your avr will basically become just an amplifier.
You didnt mention which oppo you purchased, but if it is the 103 or higher, it has channel controls like distance and spl trim level built in. It may afford you more features than your onkyo currently offers in terms of system setup parameters. Not sure about the 83 or 93 though.
You can also use the HDMI out at the same time for video only. This means when your tv is replaced, you can bypass your avr for video and go straight to the tv from the oppo. The newer oppos also have video inputs for hdmi and can act as a switcher and scaler. I believe they will also strip the audio from inputs and output over analog to your amp as well.
DD5.1 is compressed much like an .mp3 is compressed.
Indeed Nick you have described a technical difference between the formats but i was questioning more the subjective term "high definition" sound.
DD 5.1 is not unlike a mp3 at >500 kbps (DVD audio is rated for a similar bitrate although this is only one metric of quality among the formats). I doubt anyone has been able to tell the difference between the compression and non-compressed versions at such a high sampling rate.
Compression does not equate to a loss in audio quality if it can't be distinguished by the human ear anyway. There is another similar discussion at the bluray forums which parallels this one. http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159982
Understood...
I generally steer away from Dolby TrueHD whenever there is a DTS-MA track, and most of the blu-rays default to DTS-MA as *the* track of preference. Maybe that is why I hear such a big difference. The DTS mix on DVD was always more dynamic than the DD5.1, so when they put it into a lossless format on blu-ray, it still sounds light years better than DD5.1.
I will admit, since we are all being honest here, that I have never done an A/B comparison between a DD5.1 DVD track and the Dolby TrueHD track for the same movie on blu-ray.
You may have challenged me to give it a shot tonight.
One thing to keep in mind is that my gear and your gear are going to have different variables, heck, I have an acoustically treated room that may be the biggest variable in hearing a difference or not. If a room destroys upper frequencies or has nulls in the low end bass, that would suck up any real clarity or bass extension that would would get from a lossless audio track.
Then again, some people have better hearing than others. Even though my wife is younger than me, I hear a lot more detail than she does, but not as much as my teenage kids.
I will see if I still have a DVD of something that I also have on blu-ray, but if not, I will just manually switch between the two Dolby tracks from the same blu-ray and report back tonight. The trick will be to find a blu-ray with Dolby TrueHD on it since most studios went with DTS-MA as the default for blu-ray and DTS in general is more "dynamic" than Dolby, so that wouldn't be a good comparison.
Oil tank moved! What a difference it makes to the flow of the space. Starting to visualize the room size now. Going from previous room of 12x17 to 15x22 or so. Woohoo!
The offending column is the unpainted one. Hopefully engineering report later this week for removal and LVL install.
I have to stop the household habit of "just put it in the basement for now." Its starting to become a storage morgue down there.....
Changes changes.... I'm now not "allowed" to fill in the basement theater room window openings as planned with cinder block. Married life comes with a price. I will still put a plug into the window behind the screen wall. The others will get some decent blinds I guess. Not ideal.
I did convince her that a door on the space is a good idea. I also pointed out an architectural sound absorber hanging in a store and she liked it. Cedar ceiling cloud sorted. Since cedar is such a pretty material, might as well make the back wall a skyline diffuser array with a media shelf integrated. So I lost one and won some.
This results in some other minor changes. The soffit idea is dead. No rope lighting around the room perimeter. Sucks. I really covet that look in everyone else's rooms I view for inspiration. ahem Nick.
Since I've been halted by waiting on others (who says engineers aren't timely.....) I've had the opportunity to check out some fabric sites to get ideas for covering acoustic treatments. This lead to a complete overhaul of the room color/texture scheme and the inclusion of Western Red Cedar as the highlight tone for the room. I've always liked the smell and look of cedar accents in spaces. Hopefully this idea will jive with carpet later.
The leading contender for fabric so far is "Grey Ages"
I've also scrapped the idea of having the equipment rack flush in the room space. Instead I will have it mounted in a cabinet outside of the room with an IR repeater module in the screen wall. I've read all over that this improves immersion in the movie. Less lights and counters for distraction I guess.
So far it is still in the conceptual stages, but as far as I am concerned the design phase is over. Any changes now will be running changes as the room is built and dimensions vary slightly. I still have to find sconces that will compliment the fabric panel scheme.
The jury is still out on to be or not to be an early ATMOS adopter. 7.2.4 is attractive for this space according to the early literature. But, as mentioned, Dolby's market share for movie soundtracks seems to be dwindling these days.
The only major issue I can see is a speaker in the walking path immediately entering the room. Hopefully it snugs up to the ceiling without too much coloration.
Those are great renders. I initially thought they were photographs, but I was struggling to identify the tower speakers in the first pic.
For the two windows, could you make some kind of shutters with strong hinges and heavy material that did a good job of obscuring the window when closed ? I'm seeing a picture in my head of a soffit around the perimeter with a sort of multi-hinged section combining soffit material and painted wood/drywall over each window so you could open it flat against the ceiling when you wanted windows but fold it back to become part of the soffit & wall when doing the HT thing. Sort of an upside-down appliance garage.
While you're at it, I think I remember seeing "powered speakers" somewhere that moved into position when you dimmed the lights. I bet it wouldn't cost much to put a linear actuator on the surround speaker near the door so it normally sat near the ceiling but moved down when you dimmed the lights.
Not only would you gain convenience when the room was being used for non-movie activities, but you would have never-ending hilarity as people walked into the speaker in the dark.
If you get your soffit & rope lights back I guess you could dimly illuminate the speaker, but where's the fun in that ?
You mentioned the rope lighting around the room. Honestly, it pretty much never gets used anyway.
As for Atmos and the "Dolby market share" at home, with most studios going with DTS-HD Master Audio, I agree. However, DTS is working on their own object based audio similar to Atmos, and there is also AURA 3D (which I don't think will ever get traction since it isn't DTS or Dobly), but like I said, there will be something from DTS within the next year. I would say plan and wire for overhead speakers. Run the cables in the ceiling with plenty of wire, mark where they end up in the ceiling, take measurements, and document their location. Leave plenty up there since you might need to "fish" it to a slightly different location later on. Wire is cheap in the scheme of a room, and even if you never use it, that would be better than wanting it later and not having the wires there at all (like me).
It is amazing how much changed in a couple of years for me. I had to have the equipment rack in my room because of the ease of putting a movie into the blu-ray player (without having to go outside of the theater or something. Now I have a nice HTPC and we almost never use discs any more, so it doesn't matter. I have actually been working a little bit on my theater again to finally get some exhaust venting (done now) and the equipment rack in the back of the room actually built in the space and not having an old stand alone audio furniture piece that never fit into the space taken out. I only need to make 2 more shelves and clean up the cabling and it is done. With that said, every device back there has displays or little LEDs that can be dimmed or turned off. The lights from the devices really aren't a problem at all. I wouldn't want them in the front of the room, and while I did run cabling for a IR repeater system when I build my theater, I don't use it at all. I bounce the IR signal off of the screen and it makes it back to the projector and equipment rack perfectly fine (as long as there is line-of-site, which there is now that I am building the rack the way that I want to.
Just throwing that out. A separate room is better for any noise/heat isolation, but if you much have some equipment in the room, put it in the back and up high enough to not have the IR signal blocked by things like seating, and you will be just fine without a repeat.
Which reminds me. I need to advertise my 2 IR repeater systems. One is a nice Logitech unit, and the other is a slick setup that connects up via your HDMI cable. Anyway, that is another story.
Thanks for the kind words. I've always loved the planning aspect of all my hobbies. Figuring stuff out is always half the fun. It's kind of hard not to shoot big. You guys have made some pretty inspirational rooms to follow along with others.
I guess I'll let the rope light scenario go. I'm not going to die on that hill when it comes to trying to convince the wife that escape hatch window panels are plausible. It was a great idea that wouldn't have even occured to me.
Another great idea is the motion speaker mount. I totally get it. Kind of like a recessed projector mount. The me a few years ago would have been all over that. Having made a couple of Lumenlab DIY projectors over the years, the wife is tired of frankenstein projects. Probably for the better.
I will scale back the couch from what we were planning for. I have a new render with a new sofa's dimensions in mind. Anyone ever bought a sofa online from www.wayfair.com before?
I think it will be doable. I was hoping for seating for 6. But realistically, it will be just the 2 of us 90% of the time anyway.
Nick, you are absolutely right. I'd be kicking myself later if I didn't at least pull the wire while I had the chance. I'll be sure to add 4 ceiling drops in the squareish pattern at Dolby's site.
It will be a while before I upgrade my receiver to one capable of 11 channels, but I will be prepared for down the road.
Bridgman, the speakers are nondescript in the render by design. They aren't Axioms and I didn't want to make a rude impression here. Axioms were on the table at one time, but when I went shopping for my brother's theater speakers a deal jumped at me I couldn't pass up.
I picked up a package of Mordaunt Short speakers on closeout for about 50% of MSRP. They are fantastic. (For now) I couldn't imagine owning anything else. Until I audition some Axioms in person and get the feel for them I wont know what I'm missing. I did listen to Paradigm studio series speakers, which are often compared to axioms. So I might have an inkling about their flavour.
This is the system I picked up. I opted for 2 floor standers as surrounds at the time because they were such a deal. A year and a half later, I scrambled to get a set of matching bookshelves to make a 7 channel setup. I think I picked up the last "new in box" pair in black in all of Canada out of Montreal. Cutting it close.... 2 SVS sealed subs round out the bunch.
I don't mind sharing, as I don't think they can be bought anywhere now.
We auditioned a LOT of speakers at all the big box stores and then out of curiosity went to some of the high end shops back in Calgary. I'm sure glad we did. We listened to some uber dollar setups that completely changed my direction in the hobby. My focus went from feature driven bang for buck products to being purely reproduction obsessed.
My brother picked up a high dollar setup that trounces mine on paper. But my OCD about synergy and setup had always left him scratching his head when we compared the end results.
Thus began my acoustics oddyssey... never ending as I'm sure you know from your experiments. Such a fun hobby! Boy I can ramble on.....
Sounds like you're making great progress -- even the annoying details ("ow, my head") are getting solved.
Making the couch shorter is the kind of idea that would never have occurred to me
I'll just mention one more option for the windows & soffit -- do a Google image search on "egress window". Basically dig down so you can have a taller window in an enlarged window well with steps, in your case starting below the rim of the soffit. You sell it as a safety thing, of course.
That said, if it's the rope light that matters and the soffit is just a way to contain it, the best rope light solutions I have seen involved a free-form structure built down from the ceiling away from the edges of the room, like what you have at the first reflection point on the ceiling now. Just extend it back, give it a cool shape, and run the lights around the perimeter.
BTW I love that slatted wood look you have at the first reflection point, but wondering if it might reflect a bit too much. Maybe space the slats further apart or cut a "wave" shape into the supports so the surface is rippled ? Maybe extend the structure further back and have variable slat spacing, far apart over the FRP so the absorbing material behind the slats can work, then closer over the listeners ?
I could probably move the ceiling cloud back as far as I like. There will be no direct overhead lighting to compete with for space/shadows. I just have to ensure the position wont conflict with the tentative locations of future ATMOS speakers.
I plan on building the room and placing the speakers before the front wall is built. This way I can adjust and cheat the false wall forward or back as needed. Everything is precalculated to be pretty darn close already so far as I can figure. The program I am using makes it hard to triangulate the ceiling FRP with any accuracy. I have to draw it out on paper I think.
Increasing the spaces between slats is a good idea. I dont want to reject mid to high frequencies. I may also mitre the leading edge at 45 degrees to cheat a little more space in without being visible from the seating locations. Every little bit helps I guess.
See, I knew I wasn't done planning yet..... Will I ever be is the question.
I could probably move the ceiling cloud back as far as I like. There will be no direct overhead lighting to compete with for space/shadows. I just have to ensure the position wont conflict with the tentative locations of future ATMOS speakers.
It just occurred to me that a big cloud-thing in the middle of the ceiling would probably be an ideal place to hide Atmos speakers.
I've been planning for at least 30 years... it's the building part that I'm not so good at
I was always of the opinion that a theater room walls needed to be painted flat black. But after looking at these pictures, I'm kind of liking what you've done here.
I tried to design something that would be as welcoming with the lights on just listening to music too. A good balance I am hoping. Glad you like it so far.
Lauded home theater designer and constructor Dennis Erskine shares some of this projects and outlook on room design and acoustics. He touches on ATMOS and 4K video technology as well.
A couple of gems I took away from the interview was his notion of being able to bias the bass response by using 2 or more subs balanced to provide a "virtual" subwoofer location. ie. if the sub would be ideally located in the center of the floor, you can create this location by splitting the difference between the actual physical locations and individual gain settings. He states "the experienced typical ideal location for a subwoofer is in a moderate location in the room about 1/3 from each neighboring boundry into the room." He explains how using multiple subs can balance modal issues-- not necessarily smoothing bass response across all listening positions which he refers to as a misnomer. "Smooth bass is not the same as good bass. It only means same bass- good or bad." Very interesting.
Another tidbit I heard and echo again and again is the importance of the room in a design. To paraphrase: "80% of what you are hearing is the room. It is the single most important factor in the system- more so than the speakers themselves." He also favors engineered acoustic products over DIY. Go figure.
He also showed how he used acoustical panels to act as doors for storage cupboards and screen wall access. A great idea for access to the electrical panel and rear of equipment backing into the wall of my planned room.
Ok, so three beam options exist to remove the post.
1. Bolt C channel steel along both sides of the existing beam. Pros- easiest option, cheapest at under 500$ Done in few hours. Cons- beam still keeps its current protrusion into the headroom of the space.
2. 4 2x11 LVLs sandwiched together and sunk into the floor joist. Pros- beam now protrudes only 3" into headroom of space. Cons- more work and higher cost of approx 1000$
3. 8"x8" I Beam sunk into joist space with 2x8 laminated on top to hang floor joist from. Pros- beam protrudes 1.5"' slightly less. Cons- most work and lifting involved (over 400 lbs). Most expensive option at around 1200$ Most work to retrofit into current beam foundation pocket.
All three options allow the removal of the post and are suggested by an engineer as suitable choices. What should I do? What would you pick?
For those of you playing along at home (designing and building vicariously as I love to do as well)
THE WINNER IS OFFICIALLY OPTION 2
The engineering report and drawing is complete and approved for construction according to their strict specifications. The column can be removed. The build can proceed now as designed. Officially!!
Changing electrical runs in the basement to not interfere with LVL location is more work than I thought. Not so much the re-routing of existing homeruns, but re-feeding runs on the main floor that stopped in octagon junction boxes before going to the next floor. WHY?!
The house was built in 1968, so it seems every update made was in the form of feeding a basement junction and branching from there to the main floor.
Affected are:
Garburator Dishwasher Counter Cooktop (Spliced # 8s -WHY?! ) Garage feed (which is on the same homerun as the bonus room on the main floor ) Microwave In-Cabinet Range
I also have to fish in another dedicated 20A counter plug and re-feed the fridge- as there are no dedicated branches for kitchen counters. Things have changed since ole '68. Weekend mornings making toast and coffee at the same time result in the circuit tripping if the fridge compressor decides to play too.
Last but not least, all 4ft fixtures in the basement stopped in a junction and T off to the next light before feeding the fixture. Not a big deal, but strange.
Although the service is 100A, an upgrade to a modern 100A or 200A service is definitely in the cards. Haven't decided which yet. It may be nice to have the option to run a heatpump or instant hot water baseboards in the future.
BTW the existing panel is the definition of cheating. In every way. Oh how things have changed.
Yesterday was a very productive day. It helps when someone you rely on for help shows up while you are still in PJs with an armload of Tim's coffee. (or as we Canadians know it as- morning nectar.)
We had gone out for beers the night before and the topic of the LVLs came up.... so my alarm clock was "lets do this." Unfortunately, lazy me wasn't ready for the LVL install quite yet. I spent the day tidying up electrical loose ends. I said "Come back in an hour and I'll be ready." 8 1/2 hours later I called it for the day.....
Needless to say the LVLs didn't get installed. On the upside I took care of a lot of gremlins this old place had been collecting for the past 45 years.
Renovations often bring unhappy surprises. Mine was a junction removal that actually had a wire leaving the back of it into the floor above to feed the fridge. But not directly beneath it of course. After a half hour of troubleshooting, we were able to isolate the fridge feed from the others it was spliced into- only to find it has a buried junction box somewhere behind the kitchen cabinets. Delete and re-feed from scratch. Then we re-fed the dishwashwer only to find it had been leaking for quite some time when we pulled the front kick plate off. David Suzuki would be proud of my little hidden silverfish colony. A marvelous micro-ecosphere. Gross.
But all in all it was a happy day! Progress is progress and I can already feel the excitement of things to come. Here is the state of things. So far 5 existing junction home runs are deleted and replaced and the beam is finally bare.
Just remember that you are doing exactly what you said.... Fixing 45 years worth of issues. Fixing them now is a LOT better than having to deal with them later. The extra hours will seem like nothing and will be well worth it in the end.
Chipping away! Today was another step in the right direction. Shoring material picked up and built. Picked up all the joist hangers and LVL bolt hardware. Also picked up a spray foam kit for the rim joist.
The main floor feels like I could host a concert and it wouldn't budge. Sure strengthens the place. Each joist is supported by a 2x4 and angle bracing beefs it up a little more. All material will be reused in the final frame up once the beam change out is complete. Even the old beam material will find a home. I'm learning a lot and I'm sure glad I have knowledgeable help!
Progress feels good! I screwed up and the room is actually a little wider than initially planned (about 8"). The speaker VS sofa conflict may be a moot point now. I also found some cool software that Sirquack may have used back in the day for finding and verifying first reflection points before the room is built. The plan is to have sconces on the acoustic panels so this is a great find. Good ole Axiom archives.
I have been off of the forum for a long time, perhaps 7 years. Life has gone in interesting directions. Short story is I am back into this life and super excited. I'm planning a brand new theater room from scratch. I own a 7.1 on wall grand master speaker system. I have noticed that some folks out there choose to mount their QS8 surrounds on wall at about listening level or on the Axiom wall mounting bracket at ceiling level and point them towards the seating. I rather like the idea of the mounting them higher using the brackets but not sure its the best acoustically. Does anyone have any idea the pros and cons of each mounting strategy?
Due to the quad polar design of the QS series, they are very forgiving wrt placement.
My QS8V4s are mounted on our back wall at about 5' from the floor. Due to the odd shape of our room, they are far from being equidistant from the MLP; however, Audyessy takes care of any anomalies that results in excellent surround sound.
QS series are a great design & are highly thought of...
Unfortunately that room is no longer in my life and I have been floating through existence with only temporary solutions. The good news is I have a new home under construction and I have an 18x18 space that will be mine to do with as I DARN WELL PLEASE!
I still have my 7.1 Grand Master system which I will be using. I will need to get started all over again on most of the other equipment which will be fun. One major mistake I made on the old room was sound insulation. That seemed like the one place I was willing to skimp to try and save cash. I would like to do a better job this time with that but I still don't want to break the bank with decoupling walls and stuff. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Double drywall? vinyl sheeting behind the drywall? inexpensive solutions?
My thread is polluted with broken links. The horror. Lol.
Welcome back Aaron. I've been working on my own "best for less" solution for sound isolation. I'm going with,in order, 5\8 drywall on resilient channel and roxul safe and sound on all sides. My common wall will be a 2x6 plate with staggered studs and roxul woven into it. The ceiling will have 1" spray foam on bottom of upper floor and then roxul with channel and drywall. 3 of my four walls are backing onto foundation so that's a plus.
Spray foam was the way to go for me as the subfloor is 3\4 tongue and groove. Too much work to seal with caulking gun. Each plate and header will be spaced with foam\neoprene to help reduce transmission of vibration. You can of course do much more... But this plan is already adding roughly 1.5K to the cost of my build over standard building strategies ie. a bedroom.
You are more than welcome to share this thread. Many questions you may have will likely benefit us both being answered. I put this up to help and get others involved anyway.
Wow that's a of good stuff thanks. I will take a look at the roxul. Looks pretty inexpensive which is great. What do you think of the acoustic mass loaded vinyl sheeting? From what I read if you put it between the drywall and studs it basically reduces the amount of bass vibrations that travel up the studs and into other areas of the house. Also is there any benefit to doubling up on the drywall?
One suggestion for the walls is to use 6 inch upper and lower plates, then use staggered 2x4's so that each one only touches one wall instead of both. Maximum reduction of vibration this way.
Is it too late to suggest something other than square (18x18) for the room dimensions ? IIRC the room would be large enough that the dominant room mode would be down at 30 Hz but it would still help a bit if you could get length and width to be different...
The only way for me to adjust the length or width would be to build out one of the walls. Would that really be that much of a benefit and worth losing the space in the room?
One suggestion for the walls is to use 6 inch upper and lower plates, then use staggered 2x4's so that each one only touches one wall instead of both. Maximum reduction of vibration this way.
Too late to edit: Also fill the wall cavity with insulation.
The only way for me to adjust the length or width would be to build out one of the walls. Would that really be that much of a benefit and worth losing the space in the room?
There is always a way to deal with problems if you are willing to learn(spend) and treat the space for anomalies. I say keep the square footage (literally square) even though it is the acoustically worst scenario. Room modes will reign supreme!
My room is a from scratch design. No accidents. Few comprimises. If you have the same latitude, you should take advantage.
Some notes on the room size... A "square" is an acoustical nightmare. 1 Foot difference in length or width will make a difference (pun intended) in the acoustical performance.
Staggered Stud Wall is what Catbrat is mentioning with the 2x6 top and bottom plates. I did this. You will need to be a little creative with a door, but this will help with a lot of the sound proofing. You will still need to do something with your ceiling (search Whisper Clips and Hat Channel). Floors are REALLY tough to do.
Do NOT "fill" the wall cavities with insulation. Fill 1/2 of the walls with regular pink/fluffy normal insulation, but leave the other side with an air gap. You want sound isolation, and stuffing the wall cavities recouples the inside and outside of the room.
Here are some pages with GREAT information (and pictures) on the subject. Look at the first link and note that it talks about filling in just some (most) of the air gap between the two walls with insulation in point #2
Here is the one graphic that I like. Think of the "his side" as the theater side. This has 2 layers of drywall on both the inside and outside of the staggered stud wall, with green glue applied between the layers. Now, I opted NOT to do the 2nd layer on the outside of the theater because the performance improvement really goes down at that point, but if you can swing it, do it.
Better yet, just go here and read all of the links within the link below. If you have questions, give Ted or John a call. They will give you sound advice without trying to "up sell" you on things that you don't need. You can certainly get products like Green Glue and the Whisper Clips elsewhere, but their prices are good, and they really helped me out.
Or you can ask me. I've gone through so much of their material and others. Their website and Ted and John both give real and true assistance and are considered one of the best and most helpful soundproofing companies out there.
One thing that surprised me recently was that low frequency waves didn't seem to care much for my spindly little internal walls, and only the solid external walls really seemed to contribute to standing wave formation. That might turn out to be good in your case, although I imagine that doing a good job on soundproofing would make your walls have a greater effect on standing waves.
Any chance you could post a floorplan pic ? Not just the room, but the entire floor including exterior walls. I have this crazy idea that you should soundproof three of the walls and leave one untreated so your room *acts* rectangular even if it's actually square.
Without naming names, there are some frequent posters here with square rooms who might be able to offer more useful advice than me.
Below 200-300hz the walls become less effective at blocking sound transmission. Room modes are thought to be augmented by bulking up walls, as you allude to, but they are best dealt with by dimensions and bass trapping. Planning on a single flimsy wall and beefing up others unfortunately is pouring money down the drain.
Square rooms are best set up in a corner firing along the diagonal. Parallel boundaries are bad news. But all in all, best avoided.
Curious to hear what square room folks have to say.
Planning on a single flimsy wall and beefing up others unfortunately is pouring money down the drain.
For what it's worth, I wasn't recommending beefing up the other walls to deal with room modes -- it's likely to happen anyways (based on where the thread is going) in order to provide some soundproofing and I figured it might be possible to get a free ride from that work...
... I was hoping there might be an interior wall where soundproofing could be skipped, reducing the impact of the room modes. Then again if it's a full blown HT build it might be possible to add some serious bass trapping without adding a serious pile of ugly in the process.
Originally Posted By: Serenity_Now
Curious to hear what square room folks have to say.
I have this crazy idea that you should soundproof three of the walls and leave one untreated so your room *acts* rectangular even if it's actually square.
sorry I assumed thats what you meant. Oh the interwebs...
sorry I assumed thats what you meant. Oh the interwebs...
Yeah, it would have been better to work a bit of context into my comment and say something like "I have this crazy idea you should leave one of the walls un-soundproofed...".
I am guessing my wall plan of 5/8 on channel with an insulated staggered stud wall will net me an STC at or near 50db. I think the weak link in my dividing wall will be the french door with a large glass area in each. Might look at custom making doors with spaced double panes. Prehung french doors would be so easy though....
Hey Nick, did you ever get your cooling scenario figured out? I stumbled on your thread while trying to find cooling and air turnover specifics. I'm thinking I may put a thermostat controlled motorized damper inline ahead of the main and second floor tee-off point. My thoughts are that if the room gets too hot outside air will be pumped in and out at the full CFM the HRV can muster. Theoretically, at max would turm the room over just over three times an hour. Hopefully its enough..... A dead vent will add another weak link in my wall.
New HRV and whole house replacement windows showed up friday (old ones were single pane when we bought ) Installed 5 windows today. HT on backburner... again. Poo.
I had a long post and accidentally closed the tab in Firefox and lost it.
Ugh.
Soundproofing... I spent probably no more than $600 more for extra studs, drywall, clips, hat channel, insulation, green glue, and the custom ordered door and sill plate. VERY cheap considering the enormous impact it had on soundproofing the room. I can play things pretty loud without disrupting my wife watching Dancing With the Stars.
Here is a video that I've shared before. Just watch the first few seconds of it. This was from a year ago. I had the movie Oblivion playing even louder than I normally watch movies, and start the video with the door shut. Yes, you can still here the video outside the room, but compared to when I open the door, it is a huge improvement.
My wife wanted french doors too. There are several problem with that. They aren't soundproofed at all, they rattle, they are pricey, and they let light in. In talking to my wife, she said, "just put a curtain over the window." Well, what is the point of having the glass door if you just cover it up. After going with the solid core steel exterior door, she is OK with it now because of the above mentioned ability to watch DWTS without me disrupting her.
As for the heat issue, I haven't quite figured it out. I know that I need to get air out of the room, so a few weeks ago when I finally did my equipment rack, I put in a 250mm fan above it to blow air out of the room. This *should* work when the A/C is running as it gives the A/C a place to flow towards, however the weather has been too nice to really have the A/C on. It won't help much in winter since there is no source of cool air.
I think that my final plan will be to change out the fan for a direct air return for even more exhaust pull from the room, then in summer when the A/C is running, it will work even better than my little fan that is just blowing into the basement ceiling joists. I then will need to be able to set up a powered fan setup to pull air from outside in the winter. That would give me my source of cool air for those months and I would just close the HVAC vents and put small covers over them to seal them better. Then for the hot and cold times of the year I will have cooling to the room and something to pull the hot air out. Spring and fall will become the issue at that point, but having something working the rest of the year is a big improvement. I really should get going on figuring the winter cooling out before winter is actually here.
I then will need to be able to set up a powered fan setup to pull air from outside in the winter. That would give me my source of cool air for those months and I would just close the HVAC vents and put small covers over them to seal them better.
Sounds like a great idea. Learn from my mistakes and make sure you have a *very* good screen to keep rodents & bugs out though...
Sounds like a great plan, Nick. I read through your other thread and others. Mini-splits are popular, but come on! Spending upwards of 1-2 thousand for a single rooms HVAC? Better planning could have saved those blokes $ considering a minisplit doesnt exchange air.... Some of them are pretty militant about it too.
I'm wondering about the need for heating in the space. If I am thinking right, I should be able to get away with heating the common area just outside of the room with hot water baseboards. I might try to find a big old rad. They are cool.
When we are in the space with the doors clsed it should be pretty toasty. When not in there I can leave the doors open and warm air should circulate through. I wish I knew more about HVAC.
bridgeman, the furnace in our house isn't a "high efficiency" one, so it needs a supply from outside already for fresh air. I doubled up the screen on the outside vent, and put a doubled up screen where it comes to the inside as well. I would do something similar for the theater.
Serenity_Now, for future resale, you might want some type of heating in the theater, just plan on never needing to run it. To date we have NEVER had the vents open in the theater when the heat is running. Even in a cooler basement when the door has been open and the temp is a touch cool. Fire up the projector, put some 3500 BTU/hour people in there, and you don't need heat. But having it for whenever the day comes to sell, or even if you get an appraisal, most places count finished square footage based on a couple of factors, including a heat source (they don't care about A/C oddly enough) in each living space.
Thanks for all that sound insulation advice. Lots to take in and I am trying to stay inexpensive so I will do my best with it all.
Sorry my facebook privacy settings don't allow the pics to show. Not going to change those settings though. Is there another way to post and share pics on this site?
Also I am looking for seating. Trying stay inexpensive as well of course. My hopes are to find reclining love seats or couches but with cup holders. Most of the seats I am seeing all have dividers in them. I have a lot of couples over the house and usually the ladies complain about the separation of the chairs. Any options anyone knows of that are recommended?
My room isn't exactly square. At the largest lenth and width it is 18x18 but the entry of the room is bumped in about 4 feet on one side of the room making that side of the room 18x14. I am not sure how to get a picture of the room posted here. I have a floorplan but the only way I can see to upload pics is to load to facebook first but I have privacy settings I am not willing to change. Maybe there is another site I can try?
Usually cupholders means dividers. I've never seen a sofa with cupholders just on the ends. If you find one I'd be curious to see it too. Hopefully you find it in leather.
Other Options maybe:
Coffee table End table Serving tray on ottoman Sofa table behind couch to put drinks on
I remember reading somewhere that if you can afford the loss of space that 2 separate walls with no plates shared is the best....and then I thought what a lot of work/expense/space...
I was designing a video conference space for my employer and needed sound control. I called an engineering firm that was owned by a grad of the university I worked for, and he mentioned extremes of sound cladding all ventilation ducts and runs - both inside and out.
Here are the theater seats that I got. About as inexpensive as you can get. I set mine up with a loveseat option in the middle, but they could have loveseats on the sides (like 2 loveseats connected), or just like a couch with 4 reclining seats and cup holders on the ends. Now if I could just remember the company that sold them.
Found it. Seatcraft Eros seats. Pretty much all of the companies that sell it are really the same company with different names/websites.
They are about as cheap as you can get for reclining theater seats. They are NOT leather, but have held up really well even with a cat and small dog.
Best seats out there? Heck no. There are many times that I wish I would have spent another $1000 on seats with higher backs and longer footrests, but they do fine for a 2 hour movie. Problem is, in order to remove an armrest, it actually costs more money. You are looking at about $1500 for a "couch" layout of 4 seats (a little over $1400 after their 6% discount that they ALWAYS seem to have). That does, however, include free freight shipping to your driveway. You can pay for delivery and setup in your house with any of the stuff from those places.
A few things I learned quickly was that I paid no attention whatsoever to sound insulation and I shouldn't have mounted my center channel above the screen. Since then I have also used the trade up program for the 350 Sub and the QS8 surrounds. I am now shopping for a new receiver to power the system. I have enjoyed Yamaha recently mostly for the ease of use. I used Denon in this theater but really hated the sytem menus.
Someone asked to see my theater space. Here are some pics. The first is a copy of the floor plan. Its an exercise room that I am converting into a theater. Currently unfinished. The diagram shows a 4' bumpout which I will have and a closet which I will not. The room is 18x18 at the largest points but you can see that with the entry way the rear of the theater room will be smaller. [img:center]http://s1371.photobucket.com/user/aspice...?sort=3&o=1[/img]
In photobucket choose the direct link to post images here. The address should end in .jpg. Preview your reply before submitting to check links. Hope this helps.
You may want to edit your settings in photo bucket so your entire image library isn't public if you want.
Your old room was nice. You are renovating the same space?
Thanks I will check my settings. Not renovating. I actually don't live there anymore and have rented that home out. I am having a new home built and starting from scratch with the exception of my Epic Grand Master on wall speakers.
Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome as the home is in pre construction right now.
I'd have the hallway partially removed, so both sides of the room were the same. The alcove behind the rear seat would remain. This would allow your rear overhead speakers to be located in more ideal locations and center your rear seats.
The adjacent room to the right needs the hallway for the entry door. The HVAC and Sump Pump is in that room and there isn't another wall to place a door for entry there.
I suppose I could remove the hallway and have the access to that room through the theater but I was planning on finishing that room and building a closet door to the HVAC. That room will be the kids toy storage room for the basement. I would prefer not to have the kids running in and out of my theater room to collect and put away their toys.
I suppose its a trade off. Do you think my sound will be greatly impacted by the decision to leave the hallway there?
- stand at entrance to hallway (facing "up" in the diagram) - starting at room corner on your left, angle up and to the right 45 degrees until you reach other side of hallway - starting where you reached other side of hallway, angle down and to the right cutting off a corner of the toy storage/HVAC area - door to HT goes on the first new wall, door to toy storage goes on second new wall - depends on whether the corner of the HVAC/toy storage room you just cut off had anything important in it, like the HVAC
anyone want to talk projectors? I'm probably in the under $2000 budget range for the projector only but there are some packages out there I am considering. VisualApex.com has a package that looks initially. http://www.visualapex.com/projector-pack...p;Screen=FF_100
Actually I just noticed that the left rear side of the room will have a bumped-in corner, so if you were to shorten the hallway to match (or even be a bit longer) you would have room for a door to the toy storage area, wouldn't have to cut any space out of the HVAC/toy room, and would still open up the space to the RHS of the rear couch enough to make (IMO) a difference in sound.
You would also be able to move the right rear speaker over to the right a few more feet (as long as HT door had some kind of stop so you didn't hit it, or if the HT door opened outward with hinge on the left) which would balance the sound a bit more.
EDIT - if you felt like going overboard with sound control you could also put a second door at the entrance to the hallway. The local gun club has a double door arrangement like that and it really makes a difference in the amount of sound that gets out.
Quite possibly true but I'm a tad to proud of my Axiom speakers to hide them behind a screen. Also isnt it pretty hard to find a transparent screen that will reflect a high quality image?
anyone want to talk projectors? I'm probably in the under $2000 budget range for the projector only but there are some packages out there I am considering. VisualApex.com has a package that looks initially. http://www.visualapex.com/projector-pack...p;Screen=FF_100
Not sure that I would get the whole package as most of what is included really is fluff. The VA screens aren't bad at all, but they are considered an eco screen for sure. The generic universal remote certainly isn't a big deal, nor is the Disney WOW disc (I have it. Put it in once, and never touched it again.). IR Repeater. I built my room to handle an IR repeater, but I never installed it as my screen reflects the signal just fine without it. The mount is fine, but it is only worth $50.
Plus, do you NEED the 5030UBe over the 5030UB? You are paying around $300 more just to not have to run just one HDMI cable?
I would say that if you were fine with this price point of $3124 (I know that you said "under $2000), I would go with: Epson 5030UB - $2500 AV-817U Mount - $50 Seymour XD DIY Screen - $110 for fabric, $50ish for wood for frame + glue/screws/staples OR Jamestown Seymour XD Screen - $500 for 110" including frame. Assembles super easy (A friend of mine bought one of these and it looks great) HDMI cable - $35 from monoprice for a good quality and long one.
That comes to $3085 for the non-wireless projector, non-DIY screen that is better, larger, acoustically transparent, and assembles is 30 minutes, the mount, and an HDMI cable. Better quality screen and less money.
If you don't want an AT screen, then the price is even less and there are other options. (Jamestown has non-AT screens for $195 for 100" matte white, and $225 for 100" high contrast gray)
Depends. I would think with the Epson, in a room with fully controlled lighting, I would go white. The high contrast gray absorbs more light, but gives the illusion of deeper blacks by, well, being gray in a room with ambient light vs. more reflective white. That is why teh matte white will be rated around 1.0 gain, but the high contrast grays are usually 0.8 or less.
Long story short. If you can control the lighting in the room, then go white.
Wow $150? DIY is probably pretty easy on a screen huh? I have never done it but in my past I was an oil painter and used to stretch my own canvases. I assume its the same process?
Well its been a few weeks since I made any progress on the HT and this weekend is no different. Windows, trim and dump runs have been filling my spare time.
This weekend I was able to break away to make something cool for the listening room though. A mini project. Acoustic Panels v2.0!
They now belong to Mojo somewhere in Calgary. Hello Mojo if you're out there.
The new panels are constructed out of a 1/2" MDF frame and surrounded by Foam crown moulding. I found a local weaver at the farmers market to custom make wool fabric panels for them to match an existing rope wall hanging behind the listening position. Screening in the fiberglass batt insulation(owens corning 3 5/8" quiet zone) is greyish sheer fabric. They look great and most importantly were cost effective. Treatments can get silly expensive quick, so DIY all the way! Total project cost for this was just under 200$- the bulk of that being paying for custom woven fabric panels.
Here are the new panels.
The reason I added them to this thread is this will be the basic layout for the panels in the HT room. Fabric and trim paint will change. They were just too easy and cheap to make. Perfect! The plan will be modified to be longer and house an octagon extention ring for panel mounted wall sconces.
As soon as they were hung straddling either side of a 3 panel patio door we noticed the room was less echoey. These are not going to be used for FRP but strickly for slap echo in the room. So far so good.
Nope under a 2 storey. That cutout was the future home of LVL. Previous beam sat under floor joist atop the offending column.
Waiting for shoring walls to come down. Then pics. Today was another busy and chemical filled day. Promised my buddy I'd wait to pull the walls down together. A ceremonial unveiling.
Either your cooking meth or working on home renovation.
Peter, Peter! I always held you in such high regard as a keeper and guardian of the language. How could you let me down like this? Go, right now, to the bathroom mirror with a Sharpie and draw an apostrophe on your forehead!
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
Nope under a 2 storey. That cutout was the future home of LVL. Previous beam sat under floor joist atop the offending column.
Waiting for shoring walls to come down. Then pics. Today was another busy and chemical filled day. Promised my buddy I'd wait to pull the walls down together. A ceremonial unveiling.
Ok one pic. The more polite one. Lol.
You're lucky you live in Canada, Trevor, because everything in that picture would be a U.S. code violation. Nice hazmat suit, though. I'm kidding, but not about the suit.
edit: Wait! I just though of a meme for your pic. "Living so for from the epicenter, friends found Trevor's fear of ebola to be unfounded."
Last edited by BobKay; 11/12/1409:14 PM.
Always call the place you live a house. When you're old, everyone else will call it a home.
So, there has been some concern about the removal of the column. Here's how it works. The new LVL beam clear spans the space where the old column used to support the main floor. This is all spec'd by an engineer (who has yet to send me the bill for some reason.) Detailed drawings are provided based on caluclated loads etc. engineer stuff. They spec the LVL size, bolt patterns, etc.
The temp walls are down and boy o boy am I excited!! The pics earlier were from yesterday where we got the beam up and installed. Here is where we were when we set the tools down. I WAS PUMPED!!
We had the LVL assembled and up in the pocket and sitting on the remaining column we were tying into. Today I bolted the beam together and finished installing the remaining joist hangers.
DIY tip, if you use a plastic bag to remove goop from your hands you dont get the paper towel lint going on. PL premium is a bitch to get off your hands.
Here is where I was at by lunch today:
I spent the afternoon spray foaming the Rim joist and the screen side of the theater ceiling. I ran out before I got to the second half. Oh well. I've already used 2 kits and at 300$ a pop they are too expensive to buy 2 more to finish. I'll double up batt insulation in the back 1/2 of the room.
Here is how the foam looks:
After my building pal got off work we took down the shoring walls and stood back to appreciate the job. What a job it is. Before you do anything like this ask yourself one thing. How home theater obsessed am I? I guess you already know how I answered.
Here is the current state of affairs. There are a couple of shots to let you know how the clear span is secured to the existing structure.
Lastly this is the "after the hurricane set the house back down" pic. Code violations were mentioned before. If you can find them all in this pic, you win a prize. All this stuff is very temp btw. I think I'm going to wear the suit to bed tonight. Kinda warm and comfy. Off to eat pizza.
Be careful about doubling up the batt insulation in the other half of the theater. A decent air gap helps with sound proofing. The spray insulation doesn't do much for sound proofing anyway, but for thermal separation, and the thermal difference between 1 layer of batt vs. cramming in a second layer is very minimal unless insulating an exterior wall.
Ooh, nice. I really like LVL beams -- there's one about 50 feet long holding up my house. A million or so 2x6's support the LVL beam, LVL beam supports the roof, roof stops the walls from falling outwards... or at least that's how the engineer explained it.
If I could do it again I would not have spray foamed the ceiling like this. It isn't thick enough to do anything but air seal that area from above. I rationalised it in my head because we have hardwood floors on main. The screen half is directly under the dining area where the chairs skate around on the floor. That side is also where a dishwasher sits above. I have yet to do any real sound tests, but a quick "stomp, talk and scoot chairs while I'm down here" test revealed the sound was only muffled slightly. Still could hear easily... Oh well. At least our farts will stay down there I guess. .
Today I have to jack hammer out the remaining 2" concrete pier and re-secure the existing wiring. We gained 4 1/4" of headroom under the beam. Now I have to decide if I want to sneak a duct alongside it or drop them in the double wall (which is now happening.)
I'm starting to frame the exterior walls and have come up against an issue. Can anyone tell me how they seal the rim joist area above the top plate where the wall is perpendicular to the joists? I get I have to vapour barrier the wall, but it seems pointless if the area above it in the ceiling space is left wide open. Holy cow is it hard to find a straight answer online.
Slit and Fold vapour barrier over top of wall at each joist and attach to foundation sill plate/joists with acoustic-sealant. Insulate entire area above wall to rim joist.
Good weekend. 80 studs installed. 80 waiting to go in. I made a spreadsheet with calculated materials to budget the project and keep costs in perspective. In the original estimate I budgeted 90 studs..... I hope this is the only big whoops in estimating.
Perhaps, but man are my knees sore for it. Getting old. I'm on days off right now so this is my temp "day job." The whole house is getting a minor facelift slowly too. This space is more fun though.
The framing stage is pretty much finished now. Tomorrow I will be looking at making a rough layout on the floor with tape and my major tool will be a calculator. Time to actually mock up the room for speaker/treatment/lighting locations finally. I am comitted to the double wall. The STC rating of 60+ was just too enticing. I'm hoping the extra in the wall will make up for the loss in STC at the door.
I should be able to hammer out the electrical in a day or two. Might do the HVAC first. Then finish the bulk heads. Having spent time drafting and making this thread was an awesome idea. Every time I get held up from the decision commitee I have evidence I have thoroughly thought things out. A huge plus when the eyebrows come up!
3 studs left of 80.
A look from outside the room to rear.
A look from outside the room to screen side.
Future French door location
The camera on this thing is showing its shortcomings I know. Not a very wide field of view, eh?
So what did you figure out for a french door with good soundproofing capabilities? Not that I want to change mine out, or tell my wife that something exists since she wanted one, but I thought I would ask.
I havent figured out anything but its size so far. Most likely it will be diy using sealed double pane inserts and layers of mdf. I'll keep you posted.
I insisted on a door and she insisted on an open passthrough. This is our comprimise. It came up today after I double studded the wall. "This is staying open, right?" she said.
^^^ You could also add a sensor, motor, and a small sound setup and have it automatically, open when someone walks up to the door with a "Star Trek" like whoosh sound
I can't imaging going through the efforts of all of the soundproofing just to have a massive hole that lets out most of the sound anyway... I read somewhere that there was a calculation based off of room size, opening size, and of course db level as to how much sound was actually escaping a room through that doorway. It was a surprisingly high number. Pretty much a "don't bother soundproofing without a door" type of number for most spaces.
There is a "strong wall/weak wall" calculation in one of my books somewhere. Basically, you can calculate total stc by adding sq. area of each value at different weightings. Way too involved for me.
I almost passed out when she said that. Good thing she came around to what we had agreed upon earlier. I heard in my mind a toilet flushing and saw $ going down it. I think it was a reaction to how cut up the basement seems now. It should look larger once drywalled.
I have left a 1/2 inch gap between the double wall and floor joist above. Right now it is temp pinned with deck screws. Should I beef it up or leave it as is? Concern here is decoupling, but I dont want the wall to fail either.
You still want the walls to be structurally sound. Yes, some flanking sound will go along the ceiling joists between the two walls, but unless someone uses clips to isolate the walls from the ceiling:
I didn't do this and I am very happy with the soundproofing with my staggered stud wall for 2 of my walls (the other 2 were basically double walls with the inside studded and the outside concrete with a 3 inch gap). I then focused on decoupling the ceiling, and doing double drywall and greenglue. If I could prevent a lot of the noise from even getting to the ceiling joists, then it wouldn't matter for the flanking sound. It too seems to work well.
So long story short, nail those suckers in at this point. Short of starting over and using those hangers, the walls are touching the joists anyway.
I have read so many threads where there is zero tolerance in soundproofing, and others rail someone for cutting a corner. In reality, how would I know the difference unless someone like you, WITH EXPERIENCE ,chimes in.
Yup. Some people go all out nuts. I thought about the hangers like the ones I pictured above, but the more I thought about it, my weakest link would still be sound getting up through the ceiling, so instead I put my few extra dollars there to try to keep the sound from ever getting to the joists in the first place. Or at least stopping as much of it as possible.
Slit and Fold vapour barrier over top of wall at each joist and attach to foundation sill plate/joists with acoustic-sealant. Insulate entire area above wall to rim joist.
Sounds like I'm good to go.
Sorry i hadn't seen this earlier or i could have replied. This is pretty standard practice for running vapour barrier into the joist ends or at the ceiling, however most builders don't bother with the acoustiseal caulking. I however do and thankfully, (but with exception in our basement), the rest of our house was constructed in this method. I was pleasantly surprised to find the tarry black substance while drilling down from the attic into a wall stud below.
Last edited by chesseroo; 11/19/1405:08 PM.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Thanks Chess! Luckily I'm nowhere close to that step yet. Just thinking ahead I guess.
Been busy with tying up loose framing ends and starting electrical. All boxes are mounted and basement is half pulled. Theater side is close to done. Have to finish lighting zones and low voltage wiring. 2" PVC conduit ran to front and back of room at center of each wall. Front will get LCR, IR and sub feeds behind false wall. Rear pipe will get ethernet feed and HDMI for projector.
We decided to incorporate the oppo into the rear media shelf, along with the blurays etc. Now there should be no reason to go into the main av cabinet when others are in the room with the harmony remote. The rear 2" sleeve tees off to the projector and carries on down the wall to hit the oppo at end of line.
So far I am at 4 dedicated theater circuits. Back wall, side walls, subs, lighting. 5 if you count the 20A ups feeding the av rack outside the room. I am also roughing in for a future TV mount location, should we ever decide to sell the house. The TV location will have a plug at standard height and a plug at 5' directly above. This will also feed a TV loction in the workout space adjacent.
The panel swap is tentatively scheduled for Friday. Hopefully it goes off without a hitch. Feeds coming in from meter base are long enough to reuse in the new panel. Bonus! We are moving up to a 100A 32/64 circuit with surge arrest panel.
Things are really chugging along. Goal is to get inspected late next week and order drywalling material. Have to call a plumber to get a heating zone installed outside the theater too. Inside the theater will be a 240V panel convection heater, should the need arise. Now about that HVAC. Things to do....
)
sorry I assumed thats what you meant. Oh the interwebs... 
) Installed 5 windows today. HT on backburner... again. Poo.
