Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things A six month long test of an Axiom Tower vs. ???

Hi everyone - please allow a brief introduction, or re-introduction, to the Axiom forum. It's pretty cool seeing a lot of the same faces here that were present back when I was doing reviews.

Some of you may already know this, so pardon my boring "catch up" stuff ... from 2001 until 2010, I did a series of on line reviews, with a different twist. The reviews were always of competing products, with a fairly lengthy process, and a lot of input from various forum members.

Over the past 4 years, I have attempted to make a "go" at manufacturing and selling home theater products as "Chase Home Theater". My hope with this little company was to give my brother something special on which to hang his hat as the manufacturing side of the equation. As it turned out, he was not as interested as I hoped, and the company ceased operations in November, 2014.

Full disclosure time - we still have a small amount of inventory to sell off .. about 40 subs, 140 speakers and some hefty power amps. This "sell off" is being facilitated at Home Theater Shack, and if anyone looked at the products and pricing, one would quickly see we are not selling gear in which the Axiom buyer would be interested.

Now that we have the intro done .... to review process, which is also going to take place at Home Theater Shack ...

I will be starting the reviews just as they were previously done - they will be purchased, set up in our system at home, and compared to competing products. The process will include pretty straight forward language about the strengths and weaknesses of each product, with the usual caveat that these are merely opinions, although hopefully useful opinions.

I am posting here for two reasons ...

1. Ian was the first manufacturer to respond to emails sent that this review process was getting "kicked off" again. As he knows we do a lot of blind listening tests, and as Ian also is pretty relaxed about this stuff, he was enthusiastic.

2. I would like input from the forum regarding speakers to be tested - not only Axiom speakers, but also those of the competition.

We are considering everything from M50, M60, M80, M100, LFR660, LFR880 and LFR1100 in the Axiom range.

For competitors, we will look at PSB, Paradigm, Ascend, Martin Logan ... The floor is yours to chime in with ideas of speakers you might like to see compared, including from companies not mentioned here.

I do this because it's a lot of fun. To those who have participated in these events in the past, hopefully you will join in again.

No one expects this to be some sort of "tell you what to buy" scenario. What we want to accomplish is to show, in real world systems, some ideas on how to get great sound for the $$$.

To this end, we even keep a variety of receivers and amps on hand - right now, we have NAD (317 integrated), McIntosh (MA-6900 amp), Marantz (7008 receiver) and even an entry level Denon 1712 receiver (an entry level receiver, imo, is essential to this process - too many companies test entry level speakers with multi buck amps, and all too often, these entry level speakers fail big time with the type of electronics normally used with them).

We may even add an Axiom amp to the mix, along with a dedicated pre-amp processor for higher end stuff.

This first test will strictly be two channel, and tower speakers.

If you have read this far, thank you, and if there are any suggestions, fire away!

Very cool that you are back to doing reviews.

What Paradigms would you compare the M80 to? It used to be that the M80 was a bargain compared to the Studio 100 and they were often compared. It looks like the Studio 100 has become less expensive relatively (the same price it was 10 years ago?) and the M80 has crept up in price. Maybe the Prestige 95F?

On paper, the M80 appears to have better bass extension than anything in the Paragigm line except the Signature S8

Things change.

Fred - Good to see you again! The Studio 100's are listed at $1799 each on Paradigm's site, while the Prestige 95F's are listed at $2499 each.

SO ... $3598 for the pair of Studio 100's or $4998 for the pair of Prestige 95F's.

Both are under consideration. Good call!

One thing that has always bothered me about multi product reviews at many websites & magazines is the juvenile 'Shootout Format' where units are tested in a competition to the death. It seems that there has to be a winner & a bunch of losers.

Because speakers are such a subjective preference, I can't see how shootouts are valid at all. The 'winner' will not necessarily be a 'winner' to me or many others. Rating products in that manner is really irrelevant to me whether it is speakers, automobiles or whatever.

This type of extensive test over at HTS being done by a panel of testers with no numerical ratings/standings in the end is just about ideal, IMO:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/h...tion-event.html

TAM

Hah, I missed that. That begs the question, are a pair of M80s better than one Studio 100? Axiom ftw. No testing required.

TAM - I prefer that type of a process as well. A lot of people want a "number" assigned, which I have attempted to be a sport and try the "numbered" approach, and it tends to end up with people fighting over the numbered results.

The "worst" of these was a GTG at our place in 2007. We had about 15 people, all listening blind, all posting notes and tallying scores before we revealed the speakers in question.

Where this testing will be different than the current review on HTS is this process will not be over a couple of days - it will be over a period of months.

Discussion will he had about things like true, in room, comparative efficiency of several pairs of speakers, using, say, pink noise at the same volume setting on a receiver.

For an example, let's say one pair of speakers managed 88 dB at the listening position, and the next only 82 dB using the same volume setting, we know that the first speakers would have appx. the same SPL with a good 50 watt amp as would the second with a 200 watt amp.

THAT is useful information - as most budget (think $600) receivers will deliver 50 watts per channel with 5 channels driven.

Sounds good.

BTW, there is an interesting, ongoing thread at HTS ref an AMP Test that a bunch of them just participated in. Brand/model evaluations are starting to trickle in:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/h...ion-thread.html

TAM

I have been following that thread. Looking forward to reading more.

And while the purpose of this thread is to get ideas from as many people as possible in regards to different speakers to test, one that is of interest is doing some $1000 towers - M50, SVS Prime, Home Theatre Direct Level 3 Floor Standers ...

This seems to be a market without a lot of "love". Since one does not need to purchase stands with these speakers, the relative affordability against bookshelf speakers is enhanced.

This also hits that magic "$2500" for a 5.1 channel system price point as well.

It'll be great to read your thoughtful posts again. It's appreciated!

I'm really curious about the Devialet speakers that are getting a lot of press. I don't really have the budget or space for that kind of setup, but it's an intriguing product line nonetheless. One thing I'm wondering is why anyone would go for the normal Phantom over the Silver when the price difference isn't huge.

CV ... Those are in some rarified air for prices.

The LFR1100's are intriguing ... can they really compete with $5000 per pair loudspeakers like the Golden Ear Triton Ones?

That would be a heck of a test.

Craig, welcome(back) to the forums. I remember and appreciate some of your reviews a few years back (M80s, Energy Veritas I believe).

I second Fred's suggestion on the Paradigm Studios and would also like to suggest evaluating some Kef R700/R900's and maybe some comparable B&W's to see how the latest versions compare to M80s or 100s.

It would also be interesting to see how Andrew's previous crowning achievement at Mirage, the OMD28s, compare to his present work with Ian on the Omni Directional Axioms.

Craig, welcome back and I look forward to your new tests. One suggestion that comes to my mind is the PSB X2T and the Axiom M60s.

I too am interested in knowing what the LFT1100's stack up against. I had always coveted the Mirage omni speakers and wonder if that sound technology still offers top notch.

Welcome back craigsub!

I have always liked Reference 3a and Totem. I had opportunity to compare them with my Axiom AX3's - very unscientifically I might add. The end result was keeping my Axiom's when life required changes to my material possessions...and of course an upgrade to M80's to stay current.

I wonder how the higher end Axiom models would compare in proper testing?

craig:

Although I've never heard the LFRs (hopefully they will be set up at the factory for the Sep bash, ha!) from what I've read in several reviews, these are a special species of speakers that require some deep pockets to own.

From the reviews here & elsewhere, I have no doubt that they will 'compare' (compete?? - there's that term again) favourably within their price range. There is no reason that they shouldn't given their design, fine build quality & unique omni-directional sound stage.

This review by Dale Rasco says a lot:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...al-speaker.html

The only wrinkle with the article is the typical bashing back at that time in the 'Discussion Thread' where Dale didn't tolerate any BS - in fact called it slanderous (Post #27). He certainly didn't need me to jump in!!

TAM

Welcome back, Craig.

I look forward to reading about your adventures.

Cheers!

There are already a lot of good ideas here. It's probable that the first speakers ordered will be a pair of M80's or M100's - and possibly a pair of M50's as well.

The M80/100 to compare against some direct competitors in that $2000-$3500 range, and I will mention the 50's again for this reason: The anechoic sensitivity rating of 94 dB (2.83 V @ one meter) combined with 8 ohm nominal resistance places them in an unusual spot: they are about 6-7 dB higher in sensitivity than the competition, and close to the sensitivity of pro audio speakers.

Based on specs, in a real world, receiver based system, the M50's have the possibility of delivering true reference SPL in fairly large rooms using nothing more than a receiver.

I have a pair of highly regarded towers here that sell for under $1000 for the pair. The only issue is they just don't perform well unless a lot of power is applied. They really need a good 200 WPC amp.

This begs the question: Will the M50's deliver something comparable in performance to the other Kilobuck per pair speakers with a typical receiver?

Back to the M80/100 .. both seem to be in the normal "wheelhouse" for the higher end Axiom buyer. They also appeal to a much wider audience than do the Omnidirectional speakers.

I won't be ordering until mid April - we are taking our first family vacation in 3 years from April 3 until the 12th. There were a lot of personal issues in my family over the past 1.5 years, and time away has been impossible.

The whole family is looking forward to getting away, and when we get back, the fun in my "man cave" will start.

I have reached out to sources for 5 other tower speakers, and will keep this thread posted as positive responses come in.

Another thing - our home is open to people who want to stop by and listen.

BBIH and Tom Tuttle - Thanks for the welcome back!

It is interesting that you mentioned the M50s. They seem not to be as popular as Axiom's other floor stander models for some reason. Most customers go for the M60 & up.

Being an owner of a pair of M3s on stands, I would love to hear the M50s as they are really a bigger version of the M3s. They have a simpler driver complement that I generally gravitate to...

TAM

I'm a big lover of Pioneer Elite amps. Mid to upper price range. I'd love to see how it compares.

Good seeing ya around again Craig!

B&W, Paradigm, Wharfedale Opus 2.3’s are the ones that come to mind, but that’s only because I’ve owned or listened to each.

Actually, what I think might be an even more interesting comparative test, would be Axiom M80’s verse M80 HP’s verse M100’s. The LFR’s are too complicated for me. I want speakers I can just plug my wires into and run them.

Michael - Good to see you, too! Thanks for the welcome back.

Ian and Andrew could confirm this, but I think the M-80, M-80 HP and M-100 would sound pretty much identical, with the M80 HP having about 3 dB more output below 160 Hz than the M80, and the M-100 having an additional 3 dB in output below 160 Hz than the M80 HP.

When we get back from vacation, the trigger will be pulled on the speakers - right now, the KEF Q900 is the front runner for the comparison. It's about the same $$$ as the M80, and is listed as a class "B" in Stereophile's recommended components.

Class "B" has speakers up to and over $10,000 per pair, so this is high praise from Stereophile.

Michael - I should add, if Ian and/or Andrew wanted to have some comparisons done between the M80's and M100, I am all for this as well.

I have really missed doing the reviews and "hanging out" with audio nuts.

To throw an idea into the M80/HP/100 mix, what about adding in the question for the article.

'Do you need a sub for audio?' As these big boys start to get down to a level that a budget class sub will max out at. So you can answer the question of is it better to spend a bit more for the HP or 100 and forgo getting the sub for your system.

Interesting question. I've tried sub/small speaker vs full range speakers a few times and was never impressed with the sub (crossover artifacts seem to outweigh ability to go lower) but in hindsight I think the room was always getting in the way.

+1 for regular vs HP speakers, seems to be a bit more of a bass-heavy tilt in the HP speakers and trying to figure out if I would like that or not. That said, will end up pulling the trigger on some M60HPs to find out myself eventually...

EDIT -- off topic but &^$&^%$!!, missed some nice B-stock natural cherry M3v4's.

After seeing the specs on the woofer in the M100, it was pretty clear it would make for a nice, 32 Hz subwoofer.

Somewhere on the Axiom site, there is a pic of an EP-100 using this driver (just one) in a compact sub ... so an M100 has three, which is basically the same as a 12 mm X-max, 11 inch subwoofer tuned to the mid 30's.

Should have some pretty good wallop.

Speaking of wallop ... the EP800 is looking like something to try out, just for fun. There is SO much to subwoofers besides "how loud is it at 20 Hz".

The old EP-500 was a favorite 9 years ago ... and Andrew has posted the new EP-500 is more potent, even as a sealed unit.

I forgot we're talking to the man who put the "sub" in "craigsub"

In a moment of weakness I just pulled the trigger on some non-HP B-stock M60 v4's, so assuming I feel up to carrying a pair of M60s up and down the stairs yet again I should be able to comment on (a) M60ti vs M60v4, and (b) M60v4 vs Ascend Sierra-1.

Good stuff on the new M60's! Does it help to know I will have to carry the M100's and even the EP800 myself?

Actually, at 110 pounds, the EP-800 is remarkably easy to move around compared to most "beast" subs.

Check out the M80 and M80HP drivers. The HP version using the same drivers as the M100. I think the HP option is, to be frank, a waste of money, and that's why I bought V4 non-HP M80's. But....there have been others on this site who said the HP version sounded better to them. I can't help but think that is psychological, and not real. Oh wait, forget it…..I don’t want to know, cause then I’d just buy other friggin set of speakers if they do sound better….

As far as sub with stereo goes, I use an EP600 with M80’s (TI models). I have it crossed at 40. I love it. The system sound naked without it.

craig:

With me directing my wife, I found that she could move our EP800s around quite well, ha!

We put them on a bath towel on our hardwood floor & easily pushed them into place. The vertical form factor works well with them because one is not bent over trying to wrestle something that heavy...

TAM

What about the Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower, has a similar number/compliment of drivers, 2 woofers, 1 mid, 1 tweeter, (compared to the M60) with the dome tweeter it does cost 25% more, both companies are ID businesses.
Compared to the M80 the price is more similar but the M80 has double the Mids and Tweeters.
The Ascend with the Ribbon Tweeter is similar in price to the M100
Just a suggestion.
Jeff

Strider - The Ascend Towers are a pretty compelling speaker. Comparing just those to a pair of M100's would be a pretty tough task - tough in a good way.

I am heading out on vacation tomorrow ... back on April 13.

This vacation will include a lot of golf in Central Florida. At the age of 54, there has to be some stiff shaft jokes in there somewhere.

Once I get back, some speakers will be ordered. This will be fun!

Would love to see some blind tests of both high end and budget amps against each other to find out if there's really any difference other than the extra 0's on the expensive ones. Not sure how one acquires a bunch of amps without having to lay out some serious coin...I doubt if companies at the higher end would loan out any equipment knowing they'll be tested against amps costing less than a 1/3 of theirs.

Another vote for Ascend Towers. My plan was to either buy some M60v4s sooner or save a while for Towers with the RAAL tweeter (nearly 2x the price).

I went with M60v4s. They arrived yesterday (yay !!) and are sitting beside a pair of Ascend Sierra-1's. I'm really struggling with the comparison, partly because I don't have a switch box and partly because there are a bunch of big vs bookshelf factors mixed in.

There are a couple of things I prefer about the Sierras (percussion sounds a bit tighter in busy spots and acoustic piano sounds a bit more realistic) but I remember hearing some of the same things I liked about the Sierra's when I had a borrowed pair of M3's sitting beside my M60ti's. Small box vs big box. Bleah.

I really need a pair of M3's to do this comparison properly. And a 3-way remote speaker switch. And an assistant. And, as long as I'm whining, I need more free time, more hair for the back of my head, and a couple of yards of crushed stone for that big %^$#&^%$ swamp at the end of my driveway.

Hey, I have a better idea. How about if I give up on my comparison and bring M60s/Sierra-1's (and beer) down to your test instead ?

I haven't put the M60v4's side-by-side with the M60ti's yet but my immediate impression was that the v4's had a more neutral balance. The M60ti's only needed to be toed in to make the stereo imaging "pop" and otherwise sounded a bit better when pointed straight ahead, but the v4's image AND sound best when they're toed in and tweeters are at ear level. For me (6'5" with sofas & chairs raised 4") that's either a 6" plinth or a 1x2 under the front feet. Guess Mark was right about the M100's.

Not sure how to do an amp shoot-out without a really fancy switch box unless someone's memory for sound is a lot better than mine. Even the time it takes to swap speaker cables is enough to muck up an A/B comparison for me.

Bleah. I had forgotten that in my room M60s need to be further away from the wall than Sierras. Pulled them out another foot (36" from back of speaker to the wall) and sound improved significantly.

... and once I pulled the speakers out far enough from the wall I no longer needed to tilt/raise them to get a balanced sound. Definitely different from the ti's, in a good way.

Good thing I don't test speakers for a living.

If there is a comparison for amps I'd like to recommend using low efficiency bookshelf speakers for testing. There are a few models out there that are around 83-84db/1wm that are ideal for this kind of test. I mentioned it in the amp evaluation prep thread over at HTS but it didnt take.... They ended up using high efficiency speakers and I suspect the results will show differences, but not as vast as they would have been otherwise. I can recommend trying Leema Xeros and Dynaudio Excite speakers.

Bridgman ... I get back from vacation, and see your hilarious posts. That's something we need more of in this hobby. You are welcome here any time!

Today is also tax day in the US, so it's been a wild couple of days since we returned.

Hopefully, over the next couple of days, we will get things firmed up for this test - I am leaning towards getting a pair of M100's, a pair of M50's, possibly a center channel, a subwoofer and one other pair of towers or bookshelf speakers.

The M100's are under serious consideration because the one pair of speakers I have missed the most is the M80's I got about 9 years ago. The M100's would eventually be tested against something like the Goldenear Triton 2's. They are getting raves, and are a solid Class B in Stereophile.

The M50's would be tested against possibly a pair of SVS Prime Towers and the Home Theater Direct Level 3 towers. This test would be, unlike most one sees, a realistic test using a hime theater receiver.

Too many of these tests are done with $9000 in amps driving a $1000 pair of speakers. I never read where a guy looking for something like an M50 based home theater was going to use amps that cost 9 times the price of the speakers.

Of all the AV Forums I frequent, this is the only one with any humour.

That says a lot about the folks who hang out here...

TAM

We were all dropped on our heads as kids?

I don't know but I had my a$$ kicked a few times - but only when I needed it...

TAM

The first speakers have been ordered for the long term test: A pair of Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic Hybrid speakers that sell for $2500 per pair, including shipping.

They can be seen here:

http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/em-esl.php

I've still never heard electrostatic speakers. One of these days I need to broaden my horizons.

CV - I heard a pair for about a half hour last week, and was impressed enough to order my own pair. Can't wait to get them!

For a quick update - The Martin Logans arrived today. The packaging was excellent, and the speakers remarkably easy to install - they only weigh about 40 pounds.

They are breaking in now - did some casual listening to Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" for about a half an hour. Right now, I am just using an entry level Denon receiver as a 2 channel amp, so there isn't a lot to report.

The only listening report so far is they definitely are articulate, and the woofer section is pretty good.

I am also scheduled to visit Axiom next Thursday (April 30). I have business in the GTA on Wednesday and it seemed too good to pass up the chance to pay a visit.

Hopefully it will be warmer by then. I just watched it snow all night.

The drive up from Toronto is a nice one.

A quick update - The Martin Logans (ML's) are sounding pretty good. All processing in the Denon receiver is turned off, and it is just a two channel amp now.

The ML's are the first "dipole" style planar speaker we have had here, and comments one will see about ML's and Magnepans are starting to make more sense. Unlike traditional speakers, these speakers change a LOT just by moving one's listening position a little.

They are detailed, and musical to the point where I look forward to heading to the "man cave" for some relaxing listening.

Compared to the M1's (my product - a $175 bookshelf MTM monitor) and the ARX A5's ($400 each), the ML's are quite the step up. Of course, for $1250 each, they should be. The soundstaging is good, and microdynamics are as well. They definitely are not "boxy".

The current front end is a Denon DBP-1611UD player, and the receiver a Denon 1712. The receiver will soon be replaced with something more upscale - but not too crazy. This process is still not going to require someone spend huge bucks to drive reasonable priced speakers.

The likely end result will be a Marantz 6009 or 7008 receiver and a good 5 channel amp. With $1000 towers, the receiver would be used stand alone, with the $2500 towers, the amp added to the mix, in order to approximate what most people would do in the real world.

THE VISIT TO AXIOM has been confirmed - Ian has been quite gracious in his invite. We will be having a lot of discussions about all things audio. There are two things I admire about Ian when it comes to our hobby (ok, more than two things, but these two are pertinent to this test):

1. Ian never puts down competition. Regardless how much he is attacked, he just lets it go. It took yours truly a long time to learn this, and I wish I had done as Ian has from the first time I had a review thread in 2002.

2. Ian loves blind testing. Double blind is preferable, but even the type I do here is something he likes over the standard on line fan boy always picking his favorite.

When I do listening, I have someone put one speaker pair into the system. The room is easy to keep dark, and I just listen to the speakers not knowing which they are.

If Ian has a speaker in for a blind test, and some one ends up picking a competitor as the "winner", he just smiles, knowing this happens.

Back in my "first run" reviewing speakers, Axiom, if memory serves, "won" 5 and "lost" 3 blind tests against comparable speakers (in term of price).

I say "won" and "lost" because participants in these tests want a "tally". It is my experience that telling the listeners in such a test not to "keep score" is about as likely to work as is telling kids playing baseball not to keep score.

The kids keep score, even if the adults think they don't. As a funny coincidence, the kids are also more mature (as the participants) than are the adults (as the audience) .. much like the forum world.

Ever notice that the participants in a blind test are much more relaxed about the results than are those who are reading about the results?

I sincerely hope this small start back into testing speakers is useful for those who are patient enough to read all this stuff.

Look for things to get more involved after I come back from the Axiom visit. Thanks for reading, and as always, comments and suggestions are welcome.

Great post craig. Good to have you here:

I've often heard that these types of speakers are wonderful; however, I don't think that I'd want a speaker system that requires my head to be clamped in a vice to keep a coherent sound stage. When I listen or watch movies, I start sitting in the MLP, but often I end up horizontal as well & in different directions. I find that my conventional Axiom speakers don't really vary with all of my contortions. I think that I would find trying to stay rigidly in one place to enjoy the best sound would be fatiguing & probably annoying.

I've always found that the Axiom crew & customers are generally a class act & rarely ever mean-mouth any other brand. Couth & decorum is definitely lacking in many areas of this pastime that is exacerbated by the anonymity of the net.

As far as the results of blind testing, if I am the only one out of five testers that likes Speaker C the best, it doesn't matter to me that the other four preferred Speaker A. Subjectively, I still preferred Speaker C. So to me this type of 'scoring' (which then morphs into the ubiquitous 'shootout') is meaningless; however, I can see why it is done, largely for consumption by the herd. In the grand scheme of things, sales of Speaker A would probably benefit...

TAM

Tam - I do understand your concerns what happens with a "tally" of the speaker scores. One item I failed to mention is we require all "scores/notes" to be turned in before we identify the speakers in question.

To further ensure that everyone knows the test was done honestly, after the scores are posted, the listeners then get to go see which speakers were hooked up for the second round, after they turn in the notes, and before I see them, eliminating the possibility that shenanigans took place.

Where it gets really fun is when people who were not at the event go into another forum, and post half quotes while constructing all sorts of conspiracy theories about how the test was done.

Two years ago, we did a blind test between a DIY speaker and a commercially available complete "store bought" speaker.

The panel preferred the "store bought" speakers, including the gent who had built the DIY speakers.

SO ... I offered up that the guys could do additional listening anyway they wanted, which they did. They still preferred the "store bought" speakers.

A thread was opened on another forum in which it was stated that it was clear I "cheated" the test because I was so willing to let the panel run the test again without my involvement.

It takes a special kind of logic to draw that conclusion. Had I stopped the test at that point, that conclusion would have some merit. But to suggest a nefarious motive BECAUSE I offered to get out of the way is pretty far fetched.

The sad part - the participants all had fun until they tried to take part in the thread slamming the event, and they were beaten down, all because they didn't pick the speaker that the OP of that thread thought they should.

The good part - a lot of lurkers dropped PM's expressing appreciation for the efforts, and most people who are lurkers understand these tests are not perfect.

I appreciate your time and your stories, Craig.

Tom - Thanks. It's fun back to trying out a bunch of different speakers. The trip to Dwight will be fun - probably going to go with M100's and M50's - and maybe a center if Ian and Andrew want one checked out.

Andrew looks like a real talent - can't wait to pick his brain. He seems to be an engineer that not only likes the technical, he likes people. That's rare in the business.

The ML's are getting more impressive with each listening session. They are somewhat restricting in terms of the best listening position, but even when off to the side, they are pretty darn good.

craigsub is back?
nifty
and doing some martin logan listening, very interesting indeed
i almost pulled the trigger on some magnepans years ago but decided against it as i couldn't get an audition in my home with the units and secondly, i figured i would need massive amps and a subwoofer for the low end which is something additional i didn't want to add to the room
haven't heard anyone auditioning them, or anything like them, since that time (yes Martins are Electrostatic vs Magnepan Planar Magnetic)
i've often read that people seem to prefer maggies over martins, but to each his own
the soundstage is supposed to be pretty wide with maggies

I was very impressed with the Maggies when I heard them 15 years ago. But that was before I heard Axioms, so my mileage may vary.

It was tempting to try out some Magnepan 1.7's ... but the required amplifier (as per their suggestion) and somewhat lacking for use in a home theater tilted the decision to the Martin Logans.

I have heard Maggies on several occasions, and they struck me as a fun speaker, but not one I would want to have as my only two channel system.

It's only two days until the visit to Axiom ... wonder if Ian will be smart enough to lock the doors before I get there!

I surprised more people not wanting to compare say SVS prime/ultras bookshelves/towers to M3's/80/100? Or Axiom on walls to def techs or something. With both SVS and Axiom being both ID only it seems obvious.

I am more curious how an Amp / Pre-Amp vs Receiver will effect the sound or perception of sound from a given set of speakers.

I quite honestly like the speakers that I have, and have ZERO plans to replace them at any point in the next long while. If you are happy with what you have, then looking at what other people this about other speakers and how they sound is a little bit pointless.

well that is easy. Anytime I have changed receivers or separates the sound of my setup changes. It becomes a frustrating game trying to find the right combination and sound. I know the audiophiles out there will argue that all power amps should sound the same - but they simply do not. Grab an old Carver TFM power amp, then try something like a NAD or Outlaw, you will hear a noticeable difference. As for receivers, they have so much processing going on none will ever sound the same. This is a very touchy topic for some.

Newf, "audiophiles" do not believe that all amps sound the same, quite the opposite.

You are correct, this is a delicate subject with people.

It was a very good visit with Ian, Andrew and Deb (plus most of the rest of the staff) today. Got to so some blind tests, which was fun. Ordered and paid for a pair of M100s, a pair of M50s and a VP180. Finish is Oak, and they are being custom built for the finish.

What no photos?
I'm a visual kind of guy.
What does Ian look like again?

Chesseroo ... Ian still looks like Ian. And he still has the famous Ian laugh. Unfortunately, no pictures. When the speakers arrive, I promise to take a lot of pix.

I settled on a Marantz 7008 amp. It tested well, including over 200 wpc as a two channel amp. One can also use the pre outs to driven a separate amp.

Originally i read that as "Ian still looks like Alan".
Geez i had way too much of the Chook Shed shiraz this evening.
http://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1089652

I'm glad to see Marantz is still chugging along and keeping with some vintage blue light elements. Frankly i quite love any a/v gear that has cool blue lights. Not obnoxious, but damn, bring back the old analog dials and meters. Cool stuff.

Aww, I miss my 2252B.

My first great power amp was a Marantz 510 with the matching 3600 preamp - bought them in 1978.

Last year, I picked up a perfect Marantz 250 amp ... 125 WPC into 8 ohms and 200 into 4 ... bench tested this amp at 166 WPC into 8 / 252 into 4.

It will definitely get a shot at the M100's and Martin Logans.

Based on a conversation with Ian, I pulled the trigger and ordered an ADA-1000-5 and an EP-800 this morning.

For most listening, the ADA-1000 will be used as a 3 channel amp for home theater use, and 2 channel for the tower tests. The Marantz will power the back speakers for home theater usage.

And Ian liked the idea of a direct comparison of the EP-800 to the SS-18.2 we were selling at Chase Home Theater ... think "intelligent DSP and great 12 inch woofers" versus "lots of power and great 18 inch woofers".

The Chase 18 inch woofer is comparable, if not identical, to the driver used in the Power Sound Audio T-18 subwoofer. Both are sourced from Eminence on the best platform/longest throw available from Eminence.

Following closely. This will be interesting.

OK.. so I gather that you went with a 5 channel amp so you don't have to unplug any wires? I have never been to one of these events so I have no idea how they work.

Matt - You just made a good point .. some clarification is a good idea here, in regards to how this type of testing works.

There is the longer term testing between two speakers (in this case, M100's vs Martin Logan ESL Hybrid). I will break both speakers in for at least 50 hours before doing any serious listening, and switch them in and out over a period of weeks.

Over a time period, comments will be posted regarding the listening experience .. with attention paid to bass extension, bass articulation, mid range clarity, treble clarity, is either harsh at a frequency, with a particular instrument, or with higher volumes.

Microdynamics (example - a whisper in a song) will be tested. And finally, the "musicality" of each speaker pair will be posted, based on personal experience.

Some speakers make you want to listen longer. Some don't ... and it is usually the more musical speaker which does.

THEN ... the other type of test is one done at a GTG. In this test, listeners will get the chance to hear each speaker pair for a period of about an hour. Then the process is repeated with the other speaker pair.

The listeners will then write up a "review" regarding what they thought of the speakers, with no comments between the listeners.

After they are done, the results are handed in. I usually am the "host", and collect the notes, without reading them.

The listeners then get to "see" which speaker pair was "A" and which was "B". At this point, we get out the notes from everyone, and review them.

It's a lot of fun - and also is pretty close to what Axiom does at their facility, except they can do instant A-B switching.

Does this help clear things up?

As for the amp - plus center channel and subwoofer - I am getting those just for fun. I have, for a strict 2 channel listening test, a NAD 317 integrated amp with easy switching between speaker pair "A" and "B". For a GTG style setting, no subwoofer would be used, just the NAD amp, a good CD player, and the speakers in question.

I'm looking forward to reading your results and journey there.

I have a couple of questions regarding a gtg setup. Based on some personal sighted A/B tests I did a while ago with some bookshelves I noticed some things. Their "ideal" positions, based on their interaction with my room and listening position, were slightly overlapping. It was not possible to listen to each in an A/B switching setup without physically moving them to their optimal position (room boundry, toe in, etc) and the other slightly out of the way.

How do you plan to address this in a GTG setting where speakers live behind a curtain? I guess how fussy are you with setup and ensuring the speakers are judged on ideal setup? This has always been my biggest gripe with shootouts and GTG setup stories. But I have no idea how to accomplish an ideal test with ideal setup. ::shrug::

My understanding of the options is :

1. (preferred) - speakers mounted on hydraulically operated platforms (or a bunch of garage-sale Roombas rendered surplus after owners tire of posting cat/Roomba videos on YouTube) so each speaker under test moves into the preferred position when activated

2. (practical) - participants move speakers manually (only after participating in this round of blind test) and are rewarded with beer

3. (equally practical) - each speaker pair is slightly offset horizontally to the previous pair, such that ideal listening position moves slightly between speaker pairs. Listening position is a roller chair

4. (what I'm doing today) - each pair of speakers is inside/outside previous pair so listening position does not move, but separation between speakers changes

The simplest answer is this: There is no "perfect" way to conduct a test.

But .. let's compare a test like this to one as done by most magazines or the typical on line reviewer:

They spend three or four days listening, then write up results as if the results were absolute.

In the GTG setting, what one will get is a variety of opinions based on people listening with no agenda involved. There are no advertisers expecting good results for the $$$ paid.

No one gets told not to audition the speakers for him or her self.

What happens is we get an honest test based on the results as posted by 10 to 15 people who had no idea which speakers were playing.

I can tell you, based on my own experiences along with the opinions of others, that our "basement theater" is one of the better "sound rooms" available. It's very quiet, with little colouration added by the room.

Plus - we have a lot of fun, something sorely lacking in all this.

Do you have a decent switching box ? I was trying to find one with remote control and banana plug connections for less than a bazillion dollars with no success, so I was thinking about building one.

Might use a flashlight for remote control -- 3 flashes selects speaker #3 etc, or I guess I could make it the first "thing" (from Internet of Things) to go in the house since the local "essential services" policy prevents me from networking the coffee maker.

I can attest to the factuality of this statement from first hand experience myself. Great listening room.

Dont get me wrong, I'd be clapping like a wind up monkey reading your posts about the event. It sounds like a lot of fun.

Guys - All the questions are good ones. The GTG portion of the plans for 2015 will be open for a lot of suggestions. If, for example, 12 guys "sign up" to attend and they want to have a serious, level matched blind test, we would look into switchers that work at the pre-amp stage rather than a speaker switcher, if at all possible.

So PLEASE ... keep asking questions, and rest assured that none of these questions are in the least bit "bothersome".

I will be opening a thread on Home Theater Shack after the Marantz arrives, featuring the Martin Logan ESL Hybrids. When the M-100's arrive, they will get the next round of listening.

Thanks to Ajax for teaching me copy/paste in 2005, so any of my blatherings on HTS can be reposted here.

This is what we used, a home crafted A/B instantaneous switcher with an electric powered toggle.




With a Parasound Halo amp, we could setup 2 speakers and run the preamp in mono for one on one testing. The Halo unit has independent gain controls on the rear for each channel which makes it very easy in equalizing the SPL to adjust for differences in efficiency.
You can use a covered screen, but since i didn't have something useful, we used blindfolds and sat about 12' away from the speakers which helped to minimize the determination of right vs. left. Farther back virtually eliminates this but can cause other problems as you start to move so far back in the room that the acoustics change dramatically.


Is that some kind of challenge craig?


I actually quite liked the 'results' of the last major GTG you had with all those lads. It ws interesting to see the variation in preferences and how some observations for some speakers recurred, thereby defining a common sound 'type'. That kind of less biased opinion is far more useful to get an idea of a speaker character.
Any reasonable attempt at reducing the bias is useful IMO, but no, it would be impossible to satisfy the naysayers and design a truly perfect blind test.

Suggestion for speakers to add; custom subwoofers using Tannoy drivers.

Yes, these are real, built and owned by a friend of a friend. Both are huge vintage stereophiles and one of them built the switcher.
An electronics guru so i've been told.

Heres my guess...

Its a 4 pole relay with normally open and closed contacts. Low voltage DC coil (probably an ice cube 12v automotive relay) hence the power supply. The relay input side is the from the amps and the output side is jumpered out and going to the speakers. Very cool setup and custom box! We built stuff like that in motor controls/PLC labs. And yes, I'm a dork for knowing that and posting.

You should build a few and sell them.

Apparently this was a prototype unit and there were plans to do a ver2 with improvements.
I don't know if designing some kind of gain control was in those plans, but that would be the biggest upgrade i could foresee.
Otherwise the switcher worked fantastic.
One user could toggle it back and forth quickly when testing say, two different amps, and the listener would never know which amp was playing.
We used this when testing sound differences between a receiver, an old tube amp and a modern Coda amp.

The switcher in action for my second use with it, oh about 10 years ago.

Chess - I will swing by Best Buy and grab a couple of them!

We need more dorks.

Given the size of those speakers, it's not clear exactly where the parentheses should go in your second sentence...

huge (vintage stereophiles) ?

(huge vintage) stereophiles ?

The beauty about what you guys built is it is waaay faster than a normal switch, and cant accidentally short something out if you are doing amp comparisons. A normal speaker selector switch used for an amp comparison would be hazardous to equipment unless the user was really focused on turning all off between cycles and turning the other on. That box would be a neat project.

I should have been more clear ... it is the subwoofers I want to get at Best Buy, not the switch box.

One thing I have noticed with groups of 4 or more in a listening session is the "AB" instant switching tends to annoy most of the people in the test.

We all want to be able to control when the switch is made. John will just be getting into a feel for speaker "A", and Norm, the guy with the control switches speakers, leaving John hanging.

I ran this idea past Ian yesterday - it's the type of blind test we have done at the last few GTG's - you listen to a bunch of tracks for about an hour on "A", then everyone leaves, speakers are switched, and the same thing is done with "B".

The participants take 5 minutes to write notes between the switch.

Yes, you lose the instant back and forth, but you gain a more realistic listening session. You also gain the ability for the listeners to move around - check how well both speakers did off axis ... closer to the front, further back ... etc ...

I wrote that with a few beers in me.
Let's rephrase.

Yes, these {speakers} are real, built and owned by a friend of a friend. Both {lads} are huge {long time, enthusiastic, dedicated} vintage stereophiles.

Phew.
Just about broke my thesaurus there.

I think my buddy has the electrical specs diagram written down somewhere if you want it. I'm fairly sure he sent it to me once.

The A/B switching, especially when done quickly, instantaneously, is definitely more of a solo activity. However, you could have a short segment where you tell everyone that the switch will be toggled every 5 seconds for 1 minute (a total of 12 toggles), a fairly short test. If people focus on specific musicals tones (bass, treble, voices, etc.) after every 3 switches, they can get a more accurate observation of those specific things.
"Does X speaker immediately have more bass than Y?
Switch.
Listen again.
Switch.
Listen again.
Switch
Listen again.

Restart the same music piece.

Does X vocals sound brighter or muffled in comparison?"
Switch.
Listen again.
Switch.
Listen again.
Switch
Listen again.

The instantaneous method REALLY makes a huge difference in observing these variations between units and is much more similar to how Axiom has their setup as well, just that the Axiom switching unit isn't quite as quick a switch as the one i've used here.

This instantaneous switching is where level matching becomes very important because you can immediately notice if one speaker sounds louder than another. It also makes it easy to observe if the speakers are located on the right or the left which is why i suggest sitting a bit farther back (say 12' or more) and play the music in mono. This goes a long way to eliminating the left and right pull that can fool your ears into thinking it is a sound character difference vs. spatial location.
Again, this is why such a test is better done solo since having 12 guys located in different spots in the room would have that left vs. right issue the more off axis they were located, but it is worth trying in a group IMO, just for a very short period.
Reduces aggravation.
Hand out an extra beer before the test (or 'green chocolate' if you happen to live in Colorado).