Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Underwhelmed by the M3 on-wall speakers

I have not had much experience of any of Axioms smaller style speakers.

I have had quite a few 2way speakers, from Celestain DL4 and some very nice SL6. Energy C3 and some tiny Take5. They have a certain sound to them and perhaps I am spoiled to want more.

Having experienced the M80 and my LFR1100, I come to expect a sound level that leaves every audible sense fulfilled. I bought a set of M3 wall mounts with the hope that I would get the massive wow factor when my Media room is finished.

I had asked they they not ship them for a month or so when the computer speakers are ready to ship, but I guess someone didn't read the email. So when they arrived on my doorstep a few weeks ago, I said OK. better give them a test and see.

I am wondering if it's the thin wall mount design, but it feels like they are lacking that special magic that the M80 and had. I know asking a speaker like this to sound like the large LFR is asking too much. It is not a bass thing, or I don't think that it is, but it feels like they are missing some of the passion and depth that I want.

Perhaps it's my expectations are too high and the large Axioms deliver in that enveloping sound that size brings to the table, but the M3 Walls don't sound all that much better than the Energy C3 that I currently have.

I am wondering if anyone out there in Axiom land has any experiance with the Wall mount vs a more traditional style bookshelf or mini tower speaker like the M22? The M3's just aren't what I was looking for so they are going back, but before I write the experience off to trying, I'd like to know if the sound of the M22's is going to deliver that bigger sound stage that I want?

Is it worth the trip up to Axiom Dwight to see them. Convert the cost of shipping into a cost of a road trip to see them.

Just wondering.

Wall mounts are always a compromise due to the thin cabinet design. My M3s on stands put out way bigger sound in a large area than one would imagine. Because they are in corners, I had to use Port Plugs to tame the bass, but now all is well.

I bet if you hooked up a sub with them, it would be a very different story...

TAM

Two part answer...

1. No experience with the in-wall M3's but I've been really impressed every time I listen to the regular ("full-fat") M3's. I have sometimes wondered if the smaller enclosures of the in-wall/on-wall M3's translate to needing a sub but unfortunately never tried them.

2. In my experience a trip up to Dwight is always worth it.

I have four on-wall M3s right now. Replaced my four QS8s for surround duty. I really like them, but admit that I never tried them as "mains."

Agreed that a *scheduled* trip is a good time for sure.

My intention to buying these speakers were not to really use them as mains, but more that they are going to be my back surrounds. For that job they will probably suffice.

But then there is the other side to this, in I already have quite a few small speakers that sound just as good if not better than these ones are. As the media room is not yet finished, and these speakers cost me actual money, my hopes were that I would be getting a far better and fuller speaker than what I got.

I don't know if it is the deep bass lack that is what sounds wrong. I have tried playing them with some classical music that sections are clearly in the mid to high frequency range, and then your unscientific A/B/C test, tried the same piece with the LFR's and they simply blow away the sound that I was getting. Then hook up a set of Energy C3 that are more of a classical speaker shape, and they too sound fuller and more depth 3Dimentional. It's not something that I can put my finger on.

Now I will admit that I am not accurately sound leveling each of the speakers with pink noise, so maybe I am not doing the tests right. But deep down I think that if I am going to spend the money that I would be far more happy with a classic speaker design and looking towards the M22.

I suspect that it is the thin profile of the on-walls.

I was impressed by the sound of my M2s (center channel) when I tried them as mains. Being a small bookshelf, they were obviously lacking in bass, but the mids and trebble were every bit as much a delight as the M80.

I have the m22 in/on wall speakers as my mains in my relatively small home theatre. They have a huge soundstage and fully disappear when played. They are capable of playing very loud, relative to my space, and remain articulate and give me that open spacious sound I love.

Hmmm. I think that my on-wall M3s sound better than the highly praised (even by me) QS8s for surround duty.

I get nice and fairly deep extension in the audio range compared to the QS8s as well, and they "aren't to shabby."

Just seems a bit baffling, then again, they aren't full sized tower speakers, and are smaller than their bookshelf brothers.

Some popular speakers or ones mentioned in this thread with have the following low end:

M80/100 - 31Hz $954each/$1395each
VP180 - 34Hz $965each
M60 - 40Hz $730each
VP160 - 45Hz $740each
M3 - 60Hz $249each
OW M3 - 70Hz $249each
VP150 - 85Hz $530each
QS8 - 95Hz $340each
QS4 - 100Hz $265each

So the only thing that goes a little deeper for a more full for the same or less money is the regular M3 by 10Hz for the same money. Nothing in the list above costs less per item (I know that comparing a center channel to a surround to a floor-standing to a bookshelf is a bit silly)...

For me, even my receiver noticed that the on-wall M3s could go deeper then my QS8s and it adjusted for it, and I love how full my surround sound is now (from the 25Hz deeper extension).

So I am a bit baffled, but certainly NOT saying that you aren't hearing less "wow" and "pizazz" than you should. I wish that I had some real practical tips for you.

Matt, when you are comparing the C3, how are you positioning them? Unless you are also hanging them on the wall, you can't dismiss room interactions as contributing to the perceived differences.

The C3 doesn't hang on the wall. it was not designed to. I had is on a stand beside the wall. As well the C3 was a good $400 less expensive, so I will give it some leeway for style from the side of zero cost.

But my point was more that I found the M3 onwall in my tests to be a bit too much of a compromise and was more wondering if the M22's even though they are almost double the cost are going to deliver the sound I desire.

Same question turned around -- do you have the M3 in-walls actually mounted in the wall ? Not sure if they're sealed or open at the back so this might be a non-issue.

One other thing that's worth mentioning is that Energy C-3's are pretty nice speakers, and IIRC used to be almost 2x the price of M3's back when they were selling against each other... so if the M3's are sounding better than the C-3's you're doing pretty well IMO.

I would expect the C-3's to have better bass and to sound "bigger" than the in-wall M3's as a result -- I imagine you would need bookshelf M3's to get comparable bass -- but I don't yet understand why you're hearing the difference in soundstage unless the two speakers are mounted differently as well.

EDIT -- just saw your comment about the C-3's being $400 less than the M3's, so maybe $125 ?? IIRC C-3's were $500 US a pair back in 2002/2003 when the M3's were selling for a bit over $300, so sounds like you got one heck of a good deal.

BTW if my post sounds a bit defensive that wasn't my intention -- I was just trying to make it clear that the C-3's you're using as a reference were both fairly expensive and quite well regarded at the time.

I have never heard M22's (bookshelf, in- or on-wall) so can't comment intelligently on whether they would be sufficiently better than the M3's to justify the price difference, but since you're planning on using them as rear surrounds I would be looking real hard at using the C-3's I already had.

The M3's that I have are the on wall style, and yes I did hang them on the wall to get the sound.

My comment about the cost of the C3's.. It's a bit of a poke as I was saying that I already own them, and have had them for the past 10-12 year. So they have already been paid for and enjoyed for many years, so the on book cost for those speakers is now $0

The speakers that if I do replace these will cost real money out of my bank account, so logically, if you are spending money you would want them to be better than what you currently have. The plus side to the M3 was that they are slim and mount directly onto the wall and they do look really nice. The down side is that they don't sound any better and in some cases sound worse than the C3 that I currently own.

That is not saying that the M3 wall mount are bad.. it more goes to show how good the C3 that I have stood up to the test of time. But that does not change the fact that it makes no economic sense to spend money on new speakers if you don't really gain anything.

I have both M3 in-wall, M2 on-wall and M22 on-wall (and some M2s and M22s regulars) for the non-Home-Theater rooms. I did not notice much (if any) difference between M22 on-wall and regular.

Because of look and integration, the on-walls is now my favorite avenue for future.

Of course, I would love a M100 on-wall!

I've used both the wall mount M22 and the bookshelf M22. I much, much, much, much prefer the boxy speaker sound.

My M22 on walls can not hold a candle to the bookshelf M3's. Imaging, bass, volume, it is not even close. I was actually hoping to try some m3 on walls myself for surrounds. I have M2 on walls in a smaller room for surrounds and they are excellent for that purpose.

Make sure you got the polarity correct?

I believe that you are finding the same thing that I found when auditioning many different brands of modern, decent speakers a while ago - they were all 'similarly good' within their price point & class. They all sounded fine, although each had it's own sonic character; however, I could have lived with any of them.

I think your expectations of on-walls as contrasted to your full towers are a little high. The only way to level the playing field is to add a bunch of low end...

TAM

It is the fun side to hifi audio. The speakers that I have sound great. but you simply don't know if they could sound better until you go out and try something else to have a point of reference to compare to.

In my case, I have C3's that sound pretty darn good. I used them as my main's for quite some years. Then when I tired the M80's I realized that yes I could do better. They I got the LFR1100's and they were a bit better in some respects, and a bit different in others. If I was asked would I do it again. I would probably take a look at the M100's and say they offer the best bang for the buck, but the M80's are really close.

With these M3's they just don't offer anything more that what I have already got so if I want better then I now have another reference point to work with. I believe that the standard style M22's will be my next choice. Not that the M3's are not a great speaker. I am really looking forward to getting my computer speakers that are based on the M3. But for how I was using them and what I was looking for, I think there are better options out there.

I have a pair of V4 M22s (in HG Rosewood) that are on the FMS-16 stands. Unfortunately, I really don't know how they sound without my subs because in my HT, I just don't use them any other way. They sure blend nicely with the EP-800s though.

I think that the M3 bookshelf style would sound a little fuller than the M22s due to the mild bass hump around 100Hz; however, the M22s are unforgivingly flat & accurate if that is what you are after. I use my M3s as ambiance speakers more for background music & they work well for that.

As I've stated before, I prefer the M2 & M22s with subs but the M3s do just fine without them for most music...

TAM

Hi Matt, I have M3 Outdoor, M3 OnWall and had M3 Custom Wood Finish which I regret selling every day.

In my experience, the M3 OnWall run without sub fall a little short compared to the M3 bookshelf. They sound good, but you don't get the same richness or nearly the bass output.

In my case, I stole the M3 OnWall from the B Stock for under $200 if memory serves and for that they are worth every penny and more. They are great garage speakers!

Hey look, it's Hay!

Yeah, I "stole" my M3 on-walls as part of the super sale Axiom did last year before Christmas, plus a credit I had for demoing my system and having someone buy speakers.

I still think that they are great as surround speakers, but like they say in the auto world, "there is no replacement for displacement"... The larger cabinets for the bookshelves do allow the woofer to do a little more...

Graeme, good to hear from you again, and a belated Happy Birthday from last Thursday.

Thanks JohnK, when I joined the forums I was in my 20's now I've entered my 40s.....I felt so young back then, lol.

All of my HT stuff has really lasted, it helps to spend the money right the first time. Upgradis never really bite so I drifted from the boards for awhile. With all of the new products and gathering in September I've been trying to come back more often.